IST: Cubs V Cubbie North

[Mr. Cub]

We need to get rid of that Cardinal. He doesn't realize he is a Cubs now. **** him and every other guy on our team who is supposed to get guys out... Except Hammel.


David Ross should start tomorrow.

 

[CSF77]

We need to get rid of that Cardinal. He doesn't realize he is a Cubs now. **** him and every other guy on our team who is supposed to get guys out... Except Hammel.


David Ross should start tomorrow.

:ucrazy:

 

[TL1961]

We knew they'd have their ups and downs. Just sucks that they lost 4 of 6 to Milwaukee and gave away two games to the Cards.

 

[CSF77]

We knew they'd have their ups and downs. Just sucks that they lost 4 of 6 to Milwaukee and gave away two games to the Cards.

I'm just glad that they lost it in the 11th vs getting blown out by a worse team. I can accept extra's losses.

Comes down to the SP. Hendricks went 85 pitches and got into the 6th. That was a big deal and shows that they can win games if the starter is on that day. Garza struck out 9 in 7 innings. He was the better pitcher today. Gave up only 3 hits vs 5 for Hendricks.

End of the day I am fine with this loss. This was a good game and if the Cubs were not in a rutt this one would not be viewed as it is by some here.

I don't accept blow outs by starters that can't hold leads. That shit has to stop.

 

[chibears55]

Having jackson and coke on this team weakens their bench and bullpen. .

Maddon is forced to carry 1 less player on the bench becsuse he needs to add an extra reliever that he could trust over bringing in jackson or coke..

He also is forced to overuse his pen because he has 2 guys he doesn't want to turn to in close games in jackson or coke unless he forced to like yesterday because the pen is gassed. ..

They need to dump those 2 sooner rather then later

 

[JZsportsfan]

I hope Coke goes when Ramirez is back. Who'd they send down for Grimm?

 

[SilenceS]

I'm just glad that they lost it in the 11th vs getting blown out by a worse team. I can accept extra's losses.

Comes down to the SP. Hendricks went 85 pitches and got into the 6th. That was a big deal and shows that they can win games if the starter is on that day. Garza struck out 9 in 7 innings. He was the better pitcher today. Gave up only 3 hits vs 5 for Hendricks.

End of the day I am fine with this loss. This was a good game and if the Cubs were not in a rutt this one would not be viewed as it is by some here.

I don't accept blow outs by starters that can't hold leads. That shit has to stop.

Did you watch the game?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[CSF77]

Did you watch the game?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Bottom line was results. Losing in the 11th is better than being blown out.

 

[brett05]

Here's the game in condensed form if you want it

http://sports.yahoo.com/video/5-10-15-cg-chc-031226523.html

 

[TC in Mississippi]

Did you watch the game?

I did and what has been apparent since the records and numbers have actually started to mean something, in terms of sample size anyway, is that this team is 2 starters short of being a team that contends, or frankly even competes, for anything. Because of that the bullpen has been decimated and unfortunately probably wasn't as good as it looked on paper anyway. The latter is common though. For whatever reason bullpens are hard to maintain and teams that do maintain successful bullpens do it with a succession of power arms from their system. The Cubs have a weakness there organizationally and it's been exposed. I'm not saying there might not be some answers coming but they aren't easy ones and guys like Wada and Edwards who looked like they might figure in this season almost certainly won't. Still the real problem is almost total failure in the back of the rotation, the numbers are actually worse than they look for Wood and Hendricks because they don't go deep enough in games to spare the bullpen.

Now, I don't think the sky is falling and I don't think that most of us expected a ton out of 2015 but the relatively nice start is the kind of thing that buys teams time to make moves and we all hoped that the levelling off would be later rather than sooner. That didn't happen and now thhere is no more time and they are going to have to fight, scratch and struggle to maintain something close to .500 in order to be in a position to be buyers in 6-8 weeks and that ain't going to be easy. Unfortunately this is what sometimes happens to young teams while others catch some breaks and run away a little bit to catch their breaths and plan (hello Astros). That's not the Cubs fate though and this team will continue to be built and like making laws and sausages it's not too pretty.

 

[CSF77]

I did and what has been apparent since the records and numbers have actually started to mean something, in terms of sample size anyway, is that this team is 2 starters short of being a team that contends, or frankly even competes, for anything. Because of that the bullpen has been decimated and unfortunately probably wasn't as good as it looked on paper anyway. The latter is common though. For whatever reason bullpens are hard to maintain and teams that do maintain successful bullpens do it with a succession of power arms from their system. The Cubs have a weakness there organizationally and it's been exposed. I'm not saying there might not be some answers coming but they aren't easy ones and guys like Wada and Edwards who looked like they might figure in this season almost certainly won't. Still the real problem is almost total failure in the back of the rotation, the numbers are actually worse than they look for Wood and Hendricks because they don't go deep enough in games to spare the bullpen.

Now, I don't think the sky is falling and I don't think that most of us expected a ton out of 2015 but the relatively nice start is the kind of thing that buys teams time to make moves and we all hoped that the levelling off would be later rather than sooner. That didn't happen and now thhere is no more time and they are going to have to fight, scratch and struggle to maintain something close to .500 in order to be in a position to be buyers in 6-8 weeks and that ain't going to be easy. Unfortunately this is what sometimes happens to young teams while others catch some breaks and run away a little bit to catch their breaths and plan (hello Astros). That's not the Cubs fate though and this team will continue to be built and like making laws and sausages it's not too pretty.

They are not 2 starters short. They are 1. In a 5 game you are going to go with your 1-3 starters. 7 game you add your 4th. The 5th goes into the pen 100% of the time. You are not going to dump resourse into a bull pen arm when it is said and done. So in view of this they need 1 arm that is at Arrieta/Lester's level of quality. Hammels is a strong starter but I question him going up against other teams #3 starters. #4's he gives the team a chance to win.

Cole is ideal. He has contract left so it would be a smart investment. IE losing talent for a rental is not smart. Not when the team is in transition. But having that control gives stability while the talent matures around him.

End of the day I would rather have Lester, Hamels, Arrieta, Hammel as my staff going into a 7 game.

 

[TC in Mississippi]

They are not 2 starters short. They are 1. In a 5 game you are going to go with your 1-3 starters. 7 game you add your 4th. The 5th goes into the pen 100% of the time. You are not going to dump resourse into a bull pen arm when it is said and done. So in view of this they need 1 arm that is at Arrieta/Lester's level of quality. Hammels is a strong starter but I question him going up against other teams #3 starters. #4's he gives the team a chance to win.

Cole is ideal. He has contract left so it would be a smart investment. IE losing talent for a rental is not smart. Not when the team is in transition. But having that control gives stability while the talent matures around him.

End of the day I would rather have Lester, Hamels, Arrieta, Hammel as my staff going into a 7 game.

They're two starters short to even get there. This back end Hendricks and Wood will kill this bullpen even deader than they already are and the next thing you know this team will be 10 games under .500. right now they're going to have to make some moves for some bullpen help all the while looking for a starter and hoping Jacob Turner can help in late June. Forget playoffs, we're talking about keeping a young team positive before it all goes in the tank.

 

[beckdawg]

I did and what has been apparent since the records and numbers have actually started to mean something, in terms of sample size anyway, is that this team is 2 starters short of being a team that contends, or frankly even competes, for anything.

Think this is overly dramatic. The cardinals have the best record in baseball and are starting Carlos Martinez(4.89/4.93 ERA/FIP) and Tyler Lyons(4.82/2.94). That's not significantly different than Wood(4.96/4.38) and Hendricks(4.65/3.99). The royals have the third best record in baseball. Their 4/5 pitchers are Jeremy Guthrie(5.70/5.16) and Jason Vargas(5.26/5.26). The Yankees have the 6th best record in baseball. Their 4/5 pitchers are Adam Warren(4.65/4.32) and Chase Whitley(3.06/4.40) which isn't quite as bad as Wood and Hendricks but you also have to factor in how terrible Sabathia(5.45/4.39) has been.

Sorry to burst people's bubble here but this rhetoric just isn't accurate. If you'd like to argue that because of other deficiencies the cubs have less room for error than some other teams fine but that opens the conversation up to these other areas where they have been underwhelming. If you want to assign blame you can start with the fact that while Arrieta and Lester(past few starts anyways) have been good they really haven't been dominant. They are a combined 5-5 record wise. From there you can talk about how the offense has been feast or famine. Of the 30 games they have played, 13 games they've scored 2 or fewer runs with a similar 13 where they've scored 5 or more. NL average right now is 4.12 r/g. In other words, they've been very inconsistent and ultimately consistency is how you win games. From there you can go on to talk about things like the bullpen which has been terrible of late. If you look at a team like the Royals with similar issues to the cubs 4/5 starter, they've gotten away with it because they have likely the best bullpen in the majors.

Now that's not to say that at some point you don't look to add another starter. My point here is that most teams in baseball have only 3 or so good pitchers and they are trying to fill out the rest either due to injuries or various other circumstances. Regardless, focusing on starting pitching really isn't going to get you anywhere until july. There's no silver bullets in the minors. Wada, Jokish, Beeler and Turner very well could be just as bad. Edwards is still in AA and hasn't been anywhere close to stretched out for the season. Definitely don't want Jackson in the rotation either. So, until likely the trade deadline this is what the rotation is. However, there's plenty of areas where the team can improve. Scoring more consistently obviously helps. Lester and Arreita dominating would be nice. And hopefully once Ramirez is back the bullpen will solidify some.

 

[JZsportsfan]

The team is one starter short IMO. Wood can drop back in as the #5 pitcher. Some games he's going to struggle, others he's gonna get lit up but as a #5 it could be worse. Another arm in the pen would be nice. It's time to just bit the bullet on Jackson. If the Angels can find a taker for Josh Hamilton, the Cubs can find a taker for Edwin Jackson, even if they have to pay them $25 million.He's a waste of a roster spot, and the pen needs the extra arm.

 

[chibears55]

Wood and Hendricks at the back end of rotation is the least of their worries..

Got a couple hitters slumping with the bat..

Bullpen needs a bit of a makeover. .

Bench has pretty much no one they can rely on in a pinch. .

 

[Parade_Rain]

Why stop at one, if you can get two?

 

[TC in Mississippi]

Think this is overly dramatic. The cardinals have the best record in baseball and are starting Carlos Martinez(4.89/4.93 ERA/FIP) and Tyler Lyons(4.82/2.94). That's not significantly different than Wood(4.96/4.38) and Hendricks(4.65/3.99). The royals have the third best record in baseball. Their 4/5 pitchers are Jeremy Guthrie(5.70/5.16) and Jason Vargas(5.26/5.26). The Yankees have the 6th best record in baseball. Their 4/5 pitchers are Adam Warren(4.65/4.32) and Chase Whitley(3.06/4.40) which isn't quite as bad as Wood and Hendricks but you also have to factor in how terrible Sabathia(5.45/4.39) has been.

Sorry to burst people's bubble here but this rhetoric just isn't accurate. If you'd like to argue that because of other deficiencies the cubs have less room for error than some other teams fine but that opens the conversation up to these other areas where they have been underwhelming. If you want to assign blame you can start with the fact that while Arrieta and Lester(past few starts anyways) have been good they really haven't been dominant. They are a combined 5-5 record wise. From there you can talk about how the offense has been feast or famine. Of the 30 games they have played, 13 games they've scored 2 or fewer runs with a similar 13 where they've scored 5 or more. NL average right now is 4.12 r/g. In other words, they've been very inconsistent and ultimately consistency is how you win games. From there you can go on to talk about things like the bullpen which has been terrible of late. If you look at a team like the Royals with similar issues to the cubs 4/5 starter, they've gotten away with it because they have likely the best bullpen in the majors.

Now that's not to say that at some point you don't look to add another starter. My point here is that most teams in baseball have only 3 or so good pitchers and they are trying to fill out the rest either due to injuries or various other circumstances. Regardless, focusing on starting pitching really isn't going to get you anywhere until july. There's no silver bullets in the minors. Wada, Jokish, Beeler and Turner very well could be just as bad. Edwards is still in AA and hasn't been anywhere close to stretched out for the season. Definitely don't want Jackson in the rotation either. So, until likely the trade deadline this is what the rotation is. However, there's plenty of areas where the team can improve. Scoring more consistently obviously helps. Lester and Arreita dominating would be nice. And hopefully once Ramirez is back the bullpen will solidify some.

I don't disagree with any of this but bullpens are very difficult to predict. Going into the season this bullpen looked to be on of the strongest in the game but overwork (some of that is on Maddon), injuries and frankly some guys being just plain bad have hurt. There are different ways to skin a cat. Agreed that the Royals win a lot of game because of their bullpen in large part but that shouldn't be where you win games. They've just harnessed that dynamic. They did it last year too which is why no one thought they could maintain in and yet they have. None of that really pertains to the Cubs situation. The young hitters are by definition going to be feast or famine, the way this team was and/or is going to compete is on the basis of pitching. I agree that Lester and Arietta have not been dominant and they need to be more often than they have been but their numbers are solid. Wins and losses don't have much to do with a pitcher. I think this team needed a lot of things to fall in place to compete, above average starting pitching, good to great middle relief and a shut down closer first and foremost among them. Otherwise you're counting on rookies not to slump or have long stretches of mediocre play and that doesn't happen ever. I'm hard on Wood and Hendricks because their inability to go deeper in games taxes a bullpen that can't handle it and also limits the margin of error that the three solid pitchers have in their starts.

The most important thing for this team, this year is to play meaningful games in August and September so that when some more pieces are added the young players have been there before. Playoffs were probably far fetched to begin with but certainly a good goal for the team to have. In order to get to those meaningful games this team needs to be .500 plus or minus a game or two in July or they'll be sellers not buyers and the last couple of months will be pretty demotivational for these young Cubs. They need to be buyers and learn how to compete.

 

[TC in Mississippi]

Wood and Hendricks at the back end of rotation is the least of their worries..

Got a couple hitters slumping with the bat..

Bullpen needs a bit of a makeover. .

Bench has pretty much no one they can rely on in a pinch. .

Yes there are some other deficiencies but how to you expect young players to play out of slumps when their team can't ever hold a lead? This team won at least 6 games by my count early on that they had no business winning, coming from behind more than once which is really above an beyond what they should have to do. It's admirable, but ultimately not sustainable. Again, the bullpen was not as good as it looked like on paper, hardly a new phenomenon for bullpens, and it has been injured and overworked, the latter largely due to the failures of Hendricks and Wood. All of it is connected.

 

[chibears55]

Yes there are some other deficiencies but how to you expect young players to play out of slumps when their team can't ever hold a lead? This team won at least 6 games by my count early on that they had no business winning, coming from behind more than once which is really above an beyond what they should have to do. It's admirable, but ultimately not sustainable. Again, the bullpen was not as good as it looked like on paper, hardly a new phenomenon for bullpens, and it has been injured and overworked, the latter largely due to the failures of Hendricks and Wood. All of it is connected.

Not sure how hitters going into slumps is effected by pitchers not holding a lead...

Bullpen failures has come from the likes of Schlitter, German, Jackson, and Coke and that because they suck...

Losing Ramirez and Grimm to injuries hurt the pen and caused overuse of some arms like Motte and Rosscup because the above names sucks and couldn't get the job done which meant Motte and Grimm had to come in ..

Adding Russell, getting Grimm back , and Ramirez soon will help stabilize the pen down the road. ..


Not sure if your paying attention to the starters IP but Wood and Hendricks are just a couple innings short of Lester and Arrieta, which youd expect from a 4 and 5 starter and why their 4 and 5 starters...

You wanna gripe about starters not going deep to give the pen a break, you gripe when your top guys dont give you at least 7 every start..like they should be..

 

[TC in Mississippi]

Not sure how hitters going into slumps is effected by pitchers not holding a lead...

Bullpen failures has come from the likes of Schlitter, German, Jackson, and Coke and that because they suck...

Losing Ramirez and Grimm to injuries hurt the pen and caused overuse of some arms like Motte and Rosscup because the above names sucks and couldn't get the job done which meant Motte and Grimm had to come in ..

Adding Russell, getting Grimm back , and Ramirez soon will help stabilize the pen down the road. ..


Not sure if your paying attention to the starters IP but Wood and Hendricks are just a couple innings short of Lester and Arrieta, which youd expect from a 4 and 5 starter and why their 4 and 5 starters...

You wanna gripe about starters not going deep to give the pen a break, you gripe when your top guys dont give you at least 7 every start..like they should be..

I agree that the top starters need to go 7, although some of that has to do with Maddon's philosophy and you take the good with the bad with that caliber of manager. As far as how hitters slumps are affected by blown leads? It's about environment, it's a lot easier to come out of a slump when your team is winning than when your team is losing 7 out of 10 and blowing leads left and right. It makes you press and the one thing about baseball is that unlike most sports trying harder only makes things worse. This is a bad baseball team right now, they may not stay a bad baseball team in fact it's likely they'll get better as the talent pretty much screams .500 at you, but there isn't any help coming (with teh exception of a couple injured pitchers coming back) unless this team is say .500 or better and in the WC race come July.