IST: Cubs vs. Brewers

[Jorgeramos]

They should be at the park today working. That was the worst showing for this team in a long time.

They're probably golfing. You know Maddon (boy wonder) has a saying "never let the pressure exceed the pleasure."

 

[DanTown]

Let's go back to the WS

1. Lester came in and "gave up two runs" by giving up a single that went 16 feet and then striking out the next guy with a WP mixed in there. He then preceded to give up nothing more than two singles (one a seeing eye one in the 8th) and a walk for the next three innings. In no realistic world was going to Lester a mistake with Hendricks going third time through the lineup as well as the fact that Lester entered the game with a 89% WP, gave up two of the flukiest runs you'll ever see, and left with a 94% WP. People who complain that move are looking at a weird result and not a process. Hendricks had pitched nothing more than ok to that point (4 hits, 1 walk, 2 K, 2 swinging strikes, had given up 7 line drives) but the Indians were seeing him well that night and getting to see him a third time might have been far different than what Lester gave you (3+ innings, 6 GB, 2 Fly balls one of which was a line drive, 4K).

2. Everyone had said Chapman was over worked. Here was his workload

Game 4 - DNP
Game 5 - 42 pitches
Day off
Game 6 - 20 pitches

Now, it's literally game 7 of the WS. You've pitched Jon Lester in relief when he threw 90 pitches and six innings TWO days ago, Jake Arrieta was talking of going in for an inning and he started the night before, so the idea that Chapman was "done" because he threw 62 pitches over 4 days screams insane to me. Joe went to him to get 4 outs against the bottom of their order. You literally script it so you can say "I'm going to bring in one of the best relievers in baseball to close the game and get four outs before he gives up three runs". The Chapman issue so much wasn't fatigue; when Ross was the catcher of Chapman he called exclusively fastballs. No sliders. Nothing but heat. Chapman is great but if you never change the timing of a hitter, even Rajai Davis can just stick the bat out and hit a HR.

It's not a coincidence to me that he goes to Montero in the 9th to catch and with far worse stuff against far tougher hitters than the eighth inning he gets three outs. Why? Because he mixed in breaking pitches and got away with bad pitches due to timing being off.

Now with regards to this season

1. Baseball is a really hard game to win at consistently. The Braves won 13 division titles in a row and won less WS than the Marlins did who NEVER won the division. The Giants and Red Sox within the past five years won a WS then had the worst team (one of) in baseball. The absolute best case scenario for a baseball team is to get one or two WS every five or so years. And for that you need a whole lot of luck a whole lot of years. If this isn't their year (and it certainly doesn't look like it) then it's not their year. This isn't last year (where they had by far the best team in the league both by metrics and on paper) and this isn't even 2015 when they had one of the most dominant SP runs ever coincide with some young hitters to the point you thought they'd steal one but then they ran in to Daniel Murphy and poor hitting. The way I look at it is right now, at least one of Houston and Cleveland isn't even MAKING the WS and at least two of the Dodgers, Indians, and Astros aren't even going to win the WS. Those teams are saying to themselves "when are we going to get a better chance than this to win one and we still didn't?"

I simply don't get that low when a team that I don't think is truly built to win the 2017 WS has a bad weekend and has to change their hitting philosophy drastically to change their ballpark. The Cubs have a ton of guys who want to hit flyballs and turn those in to HR and two of their best line drive hitters are Russell and Contreras and they had one PA in the weekend. Yes a sweep looks and feels bad but they're still up two games in the division, they're one back in the wild card if they need to go that route, so I'm not ready to give up. But the people who have complained are the same people who complained all year and then when the Cubs had a great six week stretch after the ASB, they'd come in and loudly complain after each loss even if they won three before it so forgive me for not joining them in a pity party.

And with regards to me as a fan, I don't impact how they play. The Cubs will not play any better or worse if I give my entire life to being a fan or I never watch another game. I watch and partake in sports and the conversation about them for enjoyment in my life so if/when they lose, I say that sucks but I don't have to deal with it every day. I don't have to the gym all winter and think about it, I get to move on. when they win, I get to soak in the enjoyment and celebrate forever. That's why I'm never as down as some get. You do your fandom however you want but don't question mine because mine doesn't impact me as much as yours impacts you. Take your "fan card" or whatever the hell you want to call it and shove it up your ass. I'll do me and you can do whatever the hell it is you want to do.

 

[TC in Mississippi]

They should be at the park today working. That was the worst showing for this team in a long time.

Absolutely not. That would be the worst thing to do. The team needs a day of rest and metal reset. Baseball is sport where working too hard leads to pressing which leads to even worse performance. In football that approach works, in baseball it never does. I wouldn't let those guys come within a mile of the clubhouse today.

 

[TC in Mississippi]

Let's go back to the WS

1. Lester came in and "gave up two runs" by giving up a single that went 16 feet and then striking out the next guy with a WP mixed in there. He then preceded to give up nothing more than two singles (one a seeing eye one in the 8th) and a walk for the next three innings. In no realistic world was going to Lester a mistake with Hendricks going third time through the lineup as well as the fact that Lester entered the game with a 89% WP, gave up two of the flukiest runs you'll ever see, and left with a 94% WP. People who complain that move are looking at a weird result and not a process. Hendricks had pitched nothing more than ok to that point (4 hits, 1 walk, 2 K, 2 swinging strikes, had given up 7 line drives) but the Indians were seeing him well that night and getting to see him a third time might have been far different than what Lester gave you (3+ innings, 6 GB, 2 Fly balls one of which was a line drive, 4K).

2. Everyone had said Chapman was over worked. Here was his workload

Game 4 - DNP
Game 5 - 42 pitches
Day off
Game 6 - 20 pitches

Now, it's literally game 7 of the WS. You've pitched Jon Lester in relief when he threw 90 pitches and six innings TWO days ago, Jake Arrieta was talking of going in for an inning and he started the night before, so the idea that Chapman was "done" because he threw 62 pitches over 4 days screams insane to me. Joe went to him to get 4 outs against the bottom of their order. You literally script it so you can say "I'm going to bring in one of the best relievers in baseball to close the game and get four outs before he gives up three runs". The Chapman issue so much wasn't fatigue; when Ross was the catcher of Chapman he called exclusively fastballs. No sliders. Nothing but heat. Chapman is great but if you never change the timing of a hitter, even Rajai Davis can just stick the bat out and hit a HR.

It's not a coincidence to me that he goes to Montero in the 9th to catch and with far worse stuff against far tougher hitters than the eighth inning he gets three outs. Why? Because he mixed in breaking pitches and got away with bad pitches due to timing being off.

Now with regards to this season

1. Baseball is a really hard game to win at consistently. The Braves won 13 division titles in a row and won less WS than the Marlins did who NEVER won the division. The Giants and Red Sox within the past five years won a WS then had the worst team (one of) in baseball. The absolute best case scenario for a baseball team is to get one or two WS every five or so years. And for that you need a whole lot of luck a whole lot of years. If this isn't their year (and it certainly doesn't look like it) then it's not their year. This isn't last year (where they had by far the best team in the league both by metrics and on paper) and this isn't even 2015 when they had one of the most dominant SP runs ever coincide with some young hitters to the point you thought they'd steal one but then they ran in to Daniel Murphy and poor hitting. The way I look at it is right now, at least one of Houston and Cleveland isn't even MAKING the WS and at least two of the Dodgers, Indians, and Astros aren't even going to win the WS. Those teams are saying to themselves "when are we going to get a better chance than this to win one and we still didn't?"

I simply don't get that low when a team that I don't think is truly built to win the 2017 WS has a bad weekend and has to change their hitting philosophy drastically to change their ballpark. The Cubs have a ton of guys who want to hit flyballs and turn those in to HR and two of their best line drive hitters are Russell and Contreras and they had one PA in the weekend. Yes a sweep looks and feels bad but they're still up two games in the division, they're one back in the wild card if they need to go that route, so I'm not ready to give up. But the people who have complained are the same people who complained all year and then when the Cubs had a great six week stretch after the ASB, they'd come in and loudly complain after each loss even if they won three before it so forgive me for not joining them in a pity party.

And with regards to me as a fan, I don't impact how they play. The Cubs will not play any better or worse if I give my entire life to being a fan or I never watch another game. I watch and partake in sports and the conversation about them for enjoyment in my life so if/when they lose, I say that sucks but I don't have to deal with it every day. I don't have to the gym all winter and think about it, I get to move on. when they win, I get to soak in the enjoyment and celebrate forever. That's why I'm never as down as some get. You do your fandom however you want but don't question mine because mine doesn't impact me as much as yours impacts you. Take your "fan card" or whatever the hell you want to call it and shove it up your ass. I'll do me and you can do whatever the hell it is you want to do.

Thank you. You and I don't always agree, which of course we shouldn't because debate about sports is fun, but dear lord is this spot on.

 

[Jorgeramos]

I simply don't get that low when a team that I don't think is truly built to win the 2017 WS has a bad weekend and has to change their hitting philosophy drastically to change their ballpark.

Putting aside the troubles the Cubs have had this year, please tell me how exactly the 2017 Cubs weren't built to win the WS this year? They returned nearly the same roster that we had last year. Cubs were also a trendy pick by ESPN commentators to repeat. So please spare me this nonsense about how these Cubs weren't built to win this year's WS. Because that simply isn't true. They had just as much chance as anyone coming into the season.

 

[fatbeard]

And ownership then provided him with good players through FA and trades.

So all those players developed and performed under the guidance of a "sub par" manager?

And then he went to the Cubs and did the exact same thing, and won a World Series...in spite of himself?

You're making a rod for your own back here.

 

[Jorgeramos]

So all those players developed and performed under the guidance of a "sub par" manager?

And then he went to the Cubs and did the exact same thing, and won a World Series...in spite of himself?

You're making a rod for your own back here.

How many World Series did Maddon with Tampa? By the way, you never answered my question about how Maddon would do if he were managing, let's say, the Padres.

 

[fatbeard]

How many World Series did Maddon with Tampa?

None, which in no way impeaches his accomplishments in taking those teams as far as their talent disparity and financial limitations could carry them. Would you like to know what the Rays and Phillies payrolls were in 2008?

By the way, you never answered my question about how Maddon would do if he were managing, let's say, the Padres.

I thought the answer was patronizingly obvious. But, since apparently even the obvious is lost on you, he would be doing terribly, but a few games less terribly than the average manager in his place. No manager is a magician and not one ever alive has been able to make chicken salad out of chicken shit.

And in case you can't follow the metaphor (which seems depressingly likely), the Padres are the chicken shit.

Do better at baseball.

 

[DanTown]

Putting aside the troubles the Cubs have had this year, please tell me how exactly the 2017 Cubs weren't built to win the WS this year? They returned nearly the same roster that we had last year. Cubs were also a trendy pick by ESPN commentators to repeat. So please spare me this nonsense about how these Cubs weren't built to win this year's WS. Because that simply isn't true. They had just as much chance as anyone coming into the season.

Lackey and Brett Anderson as your 4/5 starters.
Schwarber experiment.
Happ started the year in Iowa.
Injuries.
Trades that weren't made for better "win now" pieces.

Everything the Cubs did this year via trade or call-ups was more of a nod to the future (Quintana is a multiple year pitcher; Wilson has another year on his deal; they didn't trade for Verlander even though he gave them every chance to) and the fact that the 2016 team spent a lot of capital on guys to win that year (signing Heyward, Zobrist, Lackey, trading for Chapman) that might have hurt them in the future.

The Cubs set themselves to be a solid team but they didn't go out and try and truly separate themselves from the pack. They were all-in last year, this year has been more a 2018 or 2019 timeframe

 

[Jorgeramos]

Lackey and Brett Anderson as your 4/5 starters.
Schwarber experiment.
Happ started the year in Iowa.
Injuries.
Trades that weren't made for better "win now" pieces.

Everything the Cubs did this year via trade or call-ups was more of a nod to the future (Quintana is a multiple year pitcher; Wilson has another year on his deal; they didn't trade for Verlander even though he gave them every chance to) and the fact that the 2016 team spent a lot of capital on guys to win that year (signing Heyward, Zobrist, Lackey, trading for Chapman) that might have hurt them in the future.

The Cubs set themselves to be a solid team but they didn't go out and try and truly separate themselves from the pack. They were all-in last year, this year has been more a 2018 or 2019 timeframe

The Schwarber experiment was Maddon's decision and it was a bad one. And instead of quickly realizing he made a mistake and owning up to it, Maddon was stubborn and didn't make a move until almost the 1st half of the season was played.

Lackey was the 4th starter last year as well so no change there. Anderson replaced Hammel (who wasn't very good) as the 5th starter. 5th starters don't matter when it comes to the playoffs anyway.

Cubs didn't have Happ last year so Happ being in the minors to start the year is irrelevant.

Cubs started the year fully healthy so while there have been some injuries during the season, that has nothing to do with as you said, "not being built to win this year's world series."

Cubs did make a big trade for Quintana. Yes he was brought in for the long-term but he was also 100% brought in for this season.

 

[CSF77]

How games did Nelson win against the Cubs?

Potential wins to the end

 

[Diehardfan]

The Schwarber experiment was Maddon's decision and it was a bad one. And instead of quickly realizing he made a mistake and owning up to it, Maddon was stubborn and didn't make a move until almost the 1st half of the season was played.

Lackey was the 4th starter last year as well so no change there. Anderson replaced Hammel (who wasn't very good) as the 5th starter. 5th starters don't matter when it comes to the playoffs anyway.

Cubs didn't have Happ last year so Happ being in the minors to start the year is irrelevant.

Cubs started the year fully healthy so while there have been some injuries during the season, that has nothing to do with as you said, "not being built to win this year's world series."

Cubs did make a big trade for Quintana. Yes he was brought in for the long-term but he was also 100% brought in for this season.

How many World Series did Maddon with Tampa? By the way, you never answered my question about how Maddon would do if he were managing, let's say, the Padres.

Putting aside the troubles the Cubs have had this year, please tell me how exactly the 2017 Cubs weren't built to win the WS this year? They returned nearly the same roster that we had last year. Cubs were also a trendy pick by ESPN commentators to repeat. So please spare me this nonsense about how these Cubs weren't built to win this year's WS. Because that simply isn't true. They had just as much chance as anyone coming into the season.

They're probably golfing. You know Maddon (boy wonder) has a saying "never let the pressure exceed the pleasure."

How games did Nelson win against the Cubs?

Hey Trollboy, if you don't like what you're watching....don't watch. If you don't like what you're reading here, don't read. If you're going to be a troll....at least be a good one. You're lame, uninformed and not even humorous. I'm not sure why so many here took the bait.

Oh, and BTW....in your future trolling endeavors you should know that use of the term "dude" loses all credibility, even for a troll.

 

[Jorgeramos]

Hey Trollboy, if you don't like what you're watching....don't watch. If you don't like what you're reading here, don't read. If you're going to be a troll....at least be a good one. You're lame, uninformed and not even humorous. I'm not sure why so many here took the bait.

Oh, and BTW....in your future trolling endeavors you should know that use of the term "dude" loses all credibility, even for a troll.

Feel free to take your own advice. Don't like what I'm posting, don't respond. Go ahead and ignore me if you're so inclined.

 

[Globetrotter]

Feel free to take your own advice. Don't like what I'm posting, don't respond. Go ahead and ignore me if you're so inclined.

I have to agree with you on this one.


Why is everyone going a little above "debate"? Chill out.

 

[Jorgeramos]

I have to agree with you on this one.


Why is everyone going a little above "debate"? Chill out.

It's like Maddon and the players are above reproach. Question them if you dare.

 

[Parade_Rain]

Thank you. You and I don't always agree, which of course we shouldn't because debate about sports is fun, but dear lord is this spot on.

No. It isn't.

 

[Parade_Rain]

Hey Trollboy, if you don't like what you're watching....don't watch. If you don't like what you're reading here, don't read. If you're going to be a troll....at least be a good one. You're lame, uninformed and not even humorous. I'm not sure why so many here took the bait.

Oh, and BTW....in your future trolling endeavors you should know that use of the term "dude" loses all credibility, even for a troll.

I'm wondering if he's an alt of a previous poster. Way too negative and combative as a new poster to actually be a new poster.

 

[DanTown]

The Schwarber experiment was Maddon's decision and it was a bad one. And instead of quickly realizing he made a mistake and owning up to it, Maddon was stubborn and didn't make a move until almost the 1st half of the season was played.

First off, how is it "Maddon's decision" to not get a traditional lead-off hitter and put Kyle there by necessity instead of by desire? That's the clear definition of an organizational move.

Also, what were his other options, Jon Jay? He tried Zobrist there, he also fell off a cliff production wise and then finally did settle on Jay. I mean, he tried to let Kyle work through it, they sent him down, and then moved him down in the order and he still didn't hit.

Lackey was the 4th starter last year as well so no change there. Anderson replaced Hammel (who wasn't very good) as the 5th starter. 5th starters don't matter when it comes to the playoffs anyway.

Lackey was showing signs of fatigue/poor performance last year and the Cubs this year brought in a huge injury risk as their 5th starter. They also had major regression in their starting rotation and had Hendricks miss time due to injury. It got so bad for a while that the Quintana trade was forced on them.

Cubs didn't have Happ last year so Happ being in the minors to start the year is irrelevant.

This would be my point about not going for it all this year. Happ was theoretically going to spend a year in AAA adjusting to higher class pitching and instead had to be called up because of lack of depth and performance from hitters.

Cubs started the year fully healthy so while there have been some injuries during the season, that has nothing to do with as you said, "not being built to win this year's world series."

They built and went out last year from 2015 to 2016 to win the WS; they spent tens of millions of dollars upgrading RF, 2B, SP, keeping Fowler for one year, and then addressed a non-need with Chapman by trading a top 5 prospect. This year, they made a trade for a rental closer in Davis and added Jon Jay to replace Fowler, didn't mind watching Zobrist and Lackey get a year older, replaced Hammel with a pitcher who had a far worse year than him. They made a bunch of moves in 2016 to win the 2016 WS that would cost them in the 2017 and 2018 years (like having massive older pitchers, not singing longer-term options at the SP spots).

Cubs did make a big trade for Quintana. Yes he was brought in for the long-term but he was also 100% brought in for this season.

I never said he wasn't a value to this year but the reason the Cubs acquired him was not just for this year but for the next three years where he's insanely cheap compared to the FA market.

The other problem this team had was lack of progression from a lot of their key regulars. Russell and Schwarber were shells of what the Cubs believed they would be, they lost the production Fowler gave them, and they had their SP get drastically worse. Getting back to the main point: they didn't and haven't played well all year. Heyward hasn't' gotten back close to average production in RF, Zobrist fell off a cliff, Lackey did as well, and outside of a great month of play from Contreras and Happ being ok, no one has really gotten better. You can blame a whole bunch of people or things that I can't know nor can you. Did Joe take it easy on them? Did the organizational mantra about taking it easy in spring training and enduring the marathon take away their fight? Did guys have natural regression after amazing defensive numbers? I don't know, I just know this team was not given the same resources or dedication to win THIS World Series this year as they were last year. They were hoping to contend it for it but last year they went out and made themselves the overwhelming and prohibitive favorite.

 

[Jorgeramos]

First off, how is it "Maddon's decision" to not get a traditional lead-off hitter and put Kyle there by necessity instead of by desire? That's the clear definition of an organizational move.

Also, what were his other options, Jon Jay? He tried Zobrist there, he also fell off a cliff production wise and then finally did settle on Jay. I mean, he tried to let Kyle work through it, they sent him down, and then moved him down in the order and he still didn't hit.



Lackey was showing signs of fatigue/poor performance last year and the Cubs this year brought in a huge injury risk as their 5th starter. They also had major regression in their starting rotation and had Hendricks miss time due to injury. It got so bad for a while that the Quintana trade was forced on them.



This would be my point about not going for it all this year. Happ was theoretically going to spend a year in AAA adjusting to higher class pitching and instead had to be called up because of lack of depth and performance from hitters.



They built and went out last year from 2015 to 2016 to win the WS; they spent tens of millions of dollars upgrading RF, 2B, SP, keeping Fowler for one year, and then addressed a non-need with Chapman by trading a top 5 prospect. This year, they made a trade for a rental closer in Davis and added Jon Jay to replace Fowler, didn't mind watching Zobrist and Lackey get a year older, replaced Hammel with a pitcher who had a far worse year than him. They made a bunch of moves in 2016 to win the 2016 WS that would cost them in the 2017 and 2018 years (like having massive older pitchers, not singing longer-term options at the SP spots).



I never said he wasn't a value to this year but the reason the Cubs acquired him was not just for this year but for the next three years where he's insanely cheap compared to the FA market.

The other problem this team had was lack of progression from a lot of their key regulars. Russell and Schwarber were shells of what the Cubs believed they would be, they lost the production Fowler gave them, and they had their SP get drastically worse. Getting back to the main point: they didn't and haven't played well all year. Heyward hasn't' gotten back close to average production in RF, Zobrist fell off a cliff, Lackey did as well, and outside of a great month of play from Contreras and Happ being ok, no one has really gotten better. You can blame a whole bunch of people or things that I can't know nor can you. Did Joe take it easy on them? Did the organizational mantra about taking it easy in spring training and enduring the marathon take away their fight? Did guys have natural regression after amazing defensive numbers? I don't know, I just know this team was not given the same resources or dedication to win THIS World Series this year as they were last year. They were hoping to contend it for it but last year they went out and made themselves the overwhelming and prohibitive favorite.

Almora should be leading off and should be the starting CF every day. And ask beckdawg about that, guarantee you he agrees with me 1000%. He's excellent defensively and can handle himself at the plate. Much better option than Jay or Zobrist (dude went down the drain fast).

As for Russell and Schwarber being shells of themselves, that kind of proves my point. The team was built to win, the players just haven't performed.

 

[Parade_Rain]

Almora should be leading off and should be the starting CF every day. And ask beckdawg about that, guarantee you he agrees with me 1000%. He's excellent defensively and can handle himself at the plate. Much better option than Jay or Zobrist (dude went down the drain fast).

As for Russell and Schwarber being shells of themselves, that kind of proves my point. The team was built to win, the players just haven't performed.

Almora doesn't look at enough pitches to be a leadoff hitter.