IST: Cubs vs. Brewers

[Jorgeramos]

I was not thrilled with some decisions, but I went ahead and decided to be happy, as we became WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS.

But hey, if some would rather dwell on imperfections, so be it.

Who is dwelling? I responded to a poster that said he couldn't identify anything that Maddon did wrong in G6 and 7 of the WS. It's actually very easy to identify the mistakes.

And I'm pointing out the issues because I'm getting tired of constantly being told how awesome Maddon is when his day to day decisions don't back up that claim.

 

[Jorgeramos]

Other than pitching Chapman in the 9th of game 6, I really don't see what the issues Joe had. People hang their hat on three moves

- Pulling Hendricks even though Lester was almost perfect in his time on the mound and if you didn't go to Lester when he was warm you probably couldn't go to him again
- Bunting Baez with two strikes in the 9th
- Going to Chapman in the 8th to "save" the game then

I don't love the results of some of those moves (and to be honest, Chapman was probably tired after game 6 but what, you going to sit the best reliever in baseball in game 7 of the WS) but I have no fault with the process of them.

1) You don't use Chapman in G6 when you are freaking blowing the other team out of the water. That is NOT how closers are used. Maddon just panicked for no damn reason.
2) Lester shouldn't have even been warming up! Hendricks was dominating the Indians, had a comfortable lead, and had only thrown 63 pitches. Maddon panicked again for no damn reason. Lester should NOT have been warming up at that point. And while Lester was an option, he should only have been an option in certain situations. That situation was not one of them. Made no sense.

 

[TL1961]

The answer to the world's least popular trivia question is:

ONE

One team that won a WS in the past 14 seasons went on to win its division the following year.

The Cubs will be only the second in 15 years if they win . And if they don't, but get the Wild Card, they will still be one of the very few to return to the playoffs.

It is just not a gimme. So i would say what the Cubs are doing is pretty good. And while they traded some young talent, they traded only one man off the MLB roster, and are well positioned for a long time.

 

[ijustposthere]

I don't even know what to say about this year's team. They had worse starting pitcher health (as to be expected) had major regression with three of their starters, Russell has missed basically six weeks of time, Contrereas has missed a month, they've had less players (i.e Fowler leaving), they've had major slumps from Schwarber, Rizzo, and Zobrist, and yet here they sit with a four game LEAD in the division.

Look at the Mets or Giants for what truly constitutes a "terrible year".

To be honest, I think fans here have unreal expectations about the team and sport in general and I think so much of how people have watched the Cubs is "they always fucking blow it". Do you know how many people tell me Joe Maddon mismanaged game 7 of the WS? Do you realize how stupid that sounds in the general sense of things? The Cubs, the most well-known franchise for losing ever, won the WS and people STILL complain. I think some fans just want something to complain about. And I'm process > results more than anyone on this board but even I have let the WS go. Mostly because I don't feel Joe did anything wrong aside from Chapman, which may have been more a scouting/Ross thing than it was a "he's tired thing".

I have realistic expectations. I never expected them to be as good as last season, I expect them to win the division and lose in the playoffs. Maybe they make it out of the first round. If they win again, I'd probably be more shocked about it than last year. It's just hard as shit to repeat.

Re: Maddon. He did mismanage game 7. Taking out Hendricks when he did was stupid, which led to a domino effect of inserting Chapman too early because Lester was done. I think Maddon's a great manager, but he did **** up that game. It should've never been as close as it was. Saying the Cubs won in spite of his game 7 doesn't suddenly make him terrible. Nor does stating fact means people are complaining. Some times Maddon outsmarts himself, which I can take because he's pretty fucking good overall. But he had a bad game in that one.

 

[Jorgeramos]

The answer to the world's least popular trivia question is:

ONE

One team that won a WS in the past 14 seasons went on to win its division the following year.

The Cubs will be only the second in 15 years if they win . And if they don't, but get the Wild Card, they will still be one of the very few to return to the playoffs.

It is just not a gimme. So i would say what the Cubs are doing is pretty good. And while they traded some young talent, they traded only one man off the MLB roster, and are well positioned for a long time.

Of course if you asked me to name the teams that won a WS in the past 15 seasons and went on to win their division the following year, the answer would be TWO. So kind of skewed stats there.

And I would be curious to see the makeup of those teams after they won the Series. Much of the time, teams lose some key contributors (retirement, free agency, season ending injuries). The Cubs have returned almost the entire team from a year ago. Yes they've had some injuries but nothing major. It's just been a bunch of guys that have underperformed.

 

[TL1961]

Who is dwelling? I responded to a poster that said he couldn't identify anything that Maddon did wrong in G6 and 7 of the WS. It's actually very easy to identify the mistakes.

And I'm pointing out the issues because I'm getting tired of constantly being told how awesome Maddon is when his day to day decisions don't back up that claim.

You.

You are. You are dwelling only on negatives about winning a WS and about being in first place the following year

Like getting a ******** from your wife and telling her she didn't use enough fabric softener on the sheets while it's happening.

 

[Jorgeramos]

I have realistic expectations. I never expected them to be as good as last season, I expect them to win the division and lose in the playoffs. Maybe they make it out of the first round. If they win again, I'd probably be more shocked about it than last year. It's just hard as shit to repeat.

Re: Maddon. He did mismanage game 7. Taking out Hendricks when he did was stupid, which led to a domino effect of inserting Chapman too early because Lester was done. I think Maddon's a great manager, but he did **** up that game. It should've never been as close as it was. Saying the Cubs won in spite of his game 7 doesn't suddenly make him terrible. Nor does stating fact means people are complaining. Some times Maddon outsmarts himself, which I can take because he's pretty fucking good overall. But he had a bad game in that one.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. I didn't think, nor do I think the Cubs will repeat. I knew there were going to be a handful of teams that would be very, very tough to beat this season. But I did expect the Cubs to run away with the division.

 

[TL1961]

You.

You are. You are dwelling only on negatives about winning a WS and about being in first place the following year

Like getting a ******** from your wife and telling her she didn't use enough fabric softener on the sheets while it's happening.

And yes, I realize getting a ******** from one's wife is not really a thing.

 

[Jorgeramos]

You.

You are. You are dwelling only on negatives about winning a WS and about being in first place the following year

Like getting a ******** from your wife and telling her she didn't use enough fabric softener on the sheets while it's happening.

If facts are dwelling to you, then that's your problem. Poster said that he couldn't identify anything that Maddon did wrong in Game 6 and 7. I guess people should just accept that and concede that Maddon is the GOAT.

 

[TL1961]

Of course if you asked me to name the teams that won a WS in the past 15 seasons and went on to win their division the following year, the answer would be TWO. So kind of skewed stats there.

And I would be curious to see the makeup of those teams after they won the Series. Much of the time, teams lose some key contributors (retirement, free agency, season ending injuries). The Cubs have returned almost the entire team from a year ago. Yes they've had some injuries but nothing major. It's just been a bunch of guys that have underperformed.

Russell is GG caliber SS out 6+ weeks.

Contreras was hottest hitter in MLB fora month, and has been out 6+ weeks.

Arietta has been hottest pitcher in last 6 weeks and is on DL down the stretch.

FIVE starting pitchers have been hurt and missed time.

Bryant played a month with injured finger, which affects one's swing.

No meaningful injuries?

 

[chibears55]

I was not thrilled with some decisions, but I went ahead and decided to be happy, as we became WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS.

But hey, if some would rather dwell on imperfections, so be it.

That the way I went with it..
Yea he made some questionable moves but hey it all worked out and they brought home what I've waited forever for..
a world series championship

As far as this season goes...

Yea I went into it with higher expectations on how I figured it would go for them , especially with the bats..
Just expected solid consistent offense up and down lineup

Losing Fowler sucked but I figured Jay and Almora would be just as good combined..

Expected much much better showing from Heyward and Schwarber

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

 

[TL1961]

If facts are dwelling to you, then that's your problem. Poster said that he couldn't identify anything that Maddon did wrong in Game 6 and 7. I guess people should just accept that and concede that Maddon is the GOAT.

Fine. You win.

It is far more important to dwell on a blown lead than a WS win. Do they sell T-Shirts for that?

 

[Jorgeramos]

Fine. You win.

It is far more important to dwell on a blown lead than a WS win. Do they sell T-Shirts for that?

I'm not discussing last year's win. I'm discussing Maddon and some of his maddening decisions, such as his love fest with Zobrist. I highlighted last year's G6 and 7 to easily identify why he's not very good at in game decisions. He's just not good at it.

 

[beckdawg]

You clearly don't have a handle on the 2018 payroll. As of now it's projected at roughly $94M. There is zero, literally zero excuse not to go out and sign at least a couple big boys.

1) I expect them to sign Davis or I'm going to have some very serious f'ing questions for Theo.
2) I expect them to replace Arrieta with another top starter.

With a payroll of $94M and the amount of money this team charges for tickets, they better not go cheap.

You clearly don't seem to know me. I'm well aware of the cubs salary situation. That $94 million projection doesn't include arbitration for Hendricks, Russell, and Bryant who will all make significant money their first pass through arbitration. It doesn't include the easy $15-20 million they will have to spend to replace Arrieta in some fashion with a #3ish starter. It doesn't include whatever they choose to do with their closer. And it also doesn't include the amount of money you want to save for mid seasons trades for a team you would expect to be in the playoff hunt.

If the cubs pick up all their options and offer arbitration to all their players that number is closer to $131.6M before talking about replacing arrieta and davis. And frankly given Bryant got the highest pre-arb contract ever this year that number they use for arb. is probably low on him and Hendricks given he was a cy young candidate last year. That number also doesn't include the 15 guys not on the 25 man active roster which still count toward the luxury tax not to mention any dfa guys during the season which could easily push another $10 mil onto that balance.

My point here is you never have as much money as you think you do. We can talk about what they will do more in the offseason but if I had to guess today they'd probably try to re-sign Davis as they lack real alternatives and to replace Arrieta I think you're looking at whomever the best player they can get for 1-2 years. I'd be surprised if they sign someone for that spot to a 5-6 year deal because Oscar De La Cruz probably starts next year in AA and if he pitches well could be in AAA by the end of the year. Jose Albertos probably starts in A ball next year but if he stuff is anywhere near as good as it was in A- he'll be in A+ probably by midseason. I know CF77 would just argue for them giving the spot to Tseng though I'm not sure I buy them doing that even though I like Tseng. Regardless, they have high profile pitching finally coming it's just a year or two off. If they sign someone think it's going to be more of a John Lackey type from a couple of years ago as a short term bridge rather than a long term investment. And of course that could change if someone like Arrieta cuts them a deal on staying with the team.

Regardless, all I'm saying here is I wouldn't be expecting any $200 mil contracts and honestly I'm not sure they even need them. The genius of the Q trade was that they got Arrieta's replacement making $8.85M next year. The other starters will really be replacing Lackey/#5 with presumably Monty being at least one of those guys. That being said I'm a bit more worried about how they plan to address the bullpen because typically they aren't a front office that likes to spend there. That's why we see guys like Cahill, Duesing and what not as cheap bandaids. If they move Monty to the rotation that puts even more pressure in my eyes for them to keep Davis.

 

[Jorgeramos]

Russell is GG caliber SS out 6+ weeks.

Contreras was hottest hitter in MLB fora month, and has been out 6+ weeks.

Arietta has been hottest pitcher in last 6 weeks and is on DL down the stretch.

FIVE starting pitchers have been hurt and missed time.

Bryant played a month with injured finger, which affects one's swing.

No meaningful injuries?

How were the Cubs doing before Russell and Contreras went down? Basically the same position as they are now. So you're not really making a strong case for yourself there.

 

[Jorgeramos]

You clearly don't seem to know me. I'm well aware of the cubs salary situation. That $94 million projection doesn't include arbitration for Hendricks, Russell, and Bryant who will all make significant money their first pass through arbitration. It doesn't include the easy $15-20 million they will have to spend to replace Arrieta in some fashion with a #3ish starter. It doesn't include whatever they choose to do with their closer. And it also doesn't include the amount of money you want to save for mid seasons trades for a team you would expect to be in the playoff hunt.

If the cubs pick up all their options and offer arbitration to all their players that number is closer to $131.6M before talking about replacing arrieta and davis. And frankly given Bryant got the highest pre-arb contract ever this year that number they use for arb. is probably low on him and Hendricks given he was a cy young candidate last year. That number also doesn't include the 15 guys not on the 25 man active roster which still count toward the luxury tax not to mention any dfa guys during the season which could easily push another $10 mil onto that balance.

My point here is you never have as much money as you think you do. We can talk about what they will do more in the offseason but if I had to guess today they'd probably try to re-sign Davis as they lack real alternatives and to replace Arrieta I think you're looking at whomever the best player they can get for 1-2 years. I'd be surprised if they sign someone for that spot to a 5-6 year deal because Oscar De La Cruz probably starts next year in AA and if he pitches well could be in AAA by the end of the year. Jose Albertos probably starts in A ball next year but if he stuff is anywhere near as good as it was in A- he'll be in A+ probably by midseason. I know CF77 would just argue for them giving the spot to Tseng though I'm not sure I buy them doing that even though I like Tseng. Regardless, they have high profile pitching finally coming it's just a year or two off. If they sign someone think it's going to be more of a John Lackey type from a couple of years ago as a short term bridge rather than a long term investment. And of course that could change if someone like Arrieta cuts them a deal on staying with the team.

Regardless, all I'm saying here is I wouldn't be expecting any $200 mil contracts and honestly I'm not sure they even need them. The genius of the Q trade was that they got Arrieta's replacement making $8.85M next year. The other starters will really be replacing Lackey/#5 with presumably Monty being at least one of those guys. That being said I'm a bit more worried about how they plan to address the bullpen because typically they aren't a front office that likes to spend there. That's why we see guys like Cahill, Duesing and what not as cheap bandaids. If they move Monty to the rotation that puts even more pressure in my eyes for them to keep Davis.

What midseason trades do you anticipate next season when the Cubs have no prospects to trade? As for Quintana, dude has sucked royally so far. So I would hesitate to call that a "genius" trade until we see further evidence.

Jake isn't a #3 starter. He's more of a #2 and has at times been a #1. If you replace him with a Lackey type, don't expect to win any more WS for some time.

I keep hearing about this window that the Cubs are in right now, until 2021/2022. But then I also hear from many that the Cubs aren't going to sign any big time deals. Really doesn't compute.

 

[Diehardfan]

I've said this more times than I think anyone should have had to.....the only bad decision by a manager is one that does not work. It's just that simple. Making all the moves by the so-called book on baseball and having them not work....are bad decisions. Maddon chose to go against baseball's rules of logic and won a World Series. There is no guarantee that if had done anything differently than he did that he would have gotten the same result. Zero, zip, nada. So the clowns that insist that he's not doing his job, really need to extract your heads from your collective asses. By the time this season has ended he will have amassed close to 300 wins, 3 playoff appearances and a World Series in his 3 years here. If you don't like what he's doing, there are plenty of other managers managing teams that are on the outside looking in....go follow them, they do it all by "the book".

 

[beckdawg]

What midseason trades do you anticipate next season when the Cubs have no prospects to trade? As for Quintana, dude has sucked royally so far. So I would hesitate to call that a "genius" trade until we see further evidence.

Jake isn't a #3 starter. He's more of a #2 and has at times been a #1. If you replace him with a Lackey type, don't expect to win any more WS for some time.

I keep hearing about this window that the Cubs are in right now, until 2021/2022. But then I also hear from many that the Cubs aren't going to sign any big time deals. Really doesn't compute.

Re: midseason trades, Not saying they are gonna go trade for Archer. But just as an example here Leonys Martin is making $4,850,000 this year and the cubs basically ate his deal to get him for more or less free. They aren't paying all of that but it's still around $2.5 mil they added for depth down the stretch. Likewise it's common for teams to deal for LOOGY's at the deadline. Teams typically save around $10-20 mil for moves during the season because you never know who will become available. As another example, Verlander probably wasn't expected to be a realistic pitcher the cubs could acquire coming into 2017 but a combination of him struggling some and the tigers being awful made him available. If you spend every dime in the offseason you aren't in a position to add $20 mil to the books during the season. And while it's not common, some times teams will put a guy on waivers that you may want and rather than bother with working out a trade they will just let you eat his contract if you make a claim. Alex Rios comes to mind with the Sox.

As for the rest, I'm not going to bother commenting on. If you think Quintana sucks then you're welcome to your opinion but he's been one of the most valuable pitchers in baseball the past 5 years. In terms of Arrieta being a #3, I never said that. I said the cubs would probably try to replace him with a #3ish starter because they have Lester Hendricks and Q. They don't need a #1 starter they need a solid mid rotation guy behind those 3.

 

[TL1961]

How were the Cubs doing before Russell and Contreras went down? Basically the same position as they are now. So you're not really making a strong case for yourself there.

From the AS Break until the date of Contreras' injury, the Cubs played 15 games over. (Russell's injury was 5 days earlier.) Prior to that time, they were 2 under. Since that date, they are .500. So that is far from the same. You are arguing that they are the "same position" in relation to .500, which, translated, means they have played .500 in that time.

I think one of us made a strong case. It just isn't who you think it is.

 

[A.C. Milan]

This is not going well..