IST: Cubs vs Tigers

[TC in Mississippi]

I take it back! Madden you a genius. 4-0. Coughlan hits a 3 run shot.

Just as an aside, even beyond last night, Coghlan may not be as bad as you think as he is .282/.363/.493 for the past month with a sustainable BABIP of .302.

 

[CSF77]

The dagger thus far has been the poor play against Milwaukee. A record of 2-4 I believe against them.

The Cubs are 21-16 against teams with winning records (not to mention 2 games that they probably should have won in St Louis), and 10-10 against teams that are below .500.

A of right now, they are playing to the level of their competition. That would suit me just fine if they somehow make the playoffs.

Young team still. They need to evolve to a team that plays to their own standards vs the standards of the team they are facing. This team is a year out still from being a contender.

 

[chibears55]

Young team still. They need to evolve to a team that plays to their own standards vs the standards of the team they are facing. This team is a year out still from being a contender.

Or a july trade for a TOR type starter and a LFer they can slot in middle of order from making a serious run this year..

 

[TC in Mississippi]

Or a july trade for a TOR type starter and a LFer they can slot in middle of order from making a serious run this year..

That carries a high cost and you're talking a year that doesn't look particularly winnable. The Dodgers and Nationals are built for playoff runs even if they sputter to get there and the Cardinals are who they are. This team has gotten ahead of itself and it's fun and all but would you sacrifice a 4 year window of higher percentage chance runs for a low percentage run before your pieces are in place? I just don't want them to do that. Let's watch this play out, make some reasonable moves like Soriano and if there's a long term play for a young starter do that. Anything else would be sacrificing a long term plan for instant gratification.

 

[CSF77]

That carries a high cost and you're talking a year that doesn't look particularly winnable. The Dodgers and Nationals are built for playoff runs even if they sputter to get there and the Cardinals are who they are. This team has gotten ahead of itself and it's fun and all but would you sacrifice a 4 year window of higher percentage chance runs for a low percentage run before your pieces are in place? I just don't want them to do that. Let's watch this play out, make some reasonable moves like Soriano and if there's a long term play for a young starter do that. Anything else would be sacrificing a long term plan for instant gratification.

Cost should not be a factor. What should be the factor is if the talent on the team is enough right now and add as needed.

Or a july trade for a TOR type starter and a LFer they can slot in middle of order from making a serious run this year..

I will disagree with this. A add should be done to a team already set up to be a play off team and those moves are used to bolster the team. Long term adds in general should be done in the offseason with rentals at the deadline.

The main problem with the Cubs right now is that they have 3 rookies well 2 now developing. Not to mention LF, is it even a issue right now? I saw a 3 run blast out of it last night and better production coming out of it. I've seen Lake putting up solid producing while there and now Denorfia back they are able to cover RF while Soler is on the mend. So in general the OF has been carrying it's weight.

What has killed the team has been errors leading to unearned runs. That has to get better. Then the pen. There is a reason why Rondon lost his job. Followed by some bad starts. Lester has been a roller coaster ride. Wada's last game I'm wondering if that is what we will see.

Now as answers:

Turner pitched his first game at AA. First of a DH. Took the loss in a no hitter. Think he gave up 2 runs in 4+ innings. This is the guy I'm expecting to take over Wada's spot. I'm pretty excited to see him on the mound again and honestly feel he is the answer. He went to a new arm slot and it took his low 90's fastball and got it up into the mid 90's. This injury was due to his body not used to the stress of it. Now I hope his body/arm etc is better prepared. Still him getting it up into the mid 90's makes him a TOR that they have been looking for.

Now LF: As I said what is the problem right now with it? Add to it Baez should be back by the dead line. Stick to the plan. Move him to 3B and Bryant to LF.

So the Bat: Baez The SP: Turner. The biggest problem then is the pen and they added Soriano. Then they have Edwards in AAA and Ramirez on the mend.

So do they need to do anything? Not really.

 

[TC in Mississippi]

I was talking opportunity cost. This year shouldn't be a priority, the next four years should be. In other words this is not the mortgage the future year. That year will come but not now. Enjoy this for what it is an incomplete team and an early entry into competition.

 

[CSF77]

Theo started with the message of not mortgaging the future. He has held true to it. I doubt they will ever give up youth unless there is no where for him to go.

 

[CSF77]

That said I believe they need to get what they have in order. See what they have in Baez and Turner. Basically let the season play out as is. If they get in then it is an opertunity for these kids to mature.

These are the guys that we have to depend on looking long term. Not some rental. I would rather let it play out and retain the farm depth vs ending up like the Yank did with nothing of worth in the pipe line. Even they had to rethink the way they do business.

 

[chibears55]

So TC and CSF..
If after AS break the cubs are 10 games over .500 and 3 back of Cardinals, you guys wouldn't want them to add a TOR type starter and or a LFer to help them make a strong run this year.

Youd rather they sit back and play out season as is even if it means falling a couple games short in the end cause they didn't add needed parts that could of helped.. just because you prefer waiting til off season to make moves for next season ?


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[SilenceS]

The Cubs aren't winning the World Series this year. Im not dumping the farm for a rental. The Cubs aren't going to go for it like the A's last year. Their trades will be thought out for future not present. This team is not one of the top teams. No one is saying they won't do some trades, but they aren't going to sacrifice years for one year.

 

[CSF77]

So TC and CSF..
If after AS break the cubs are 10 games over .500 and 3 back of Cardinals, you guys wouldn't want them to add a TOR type starter and or a LFer to help them make a strong run this year.

Youd rather they sit back and play out season as is even if it means falling a couple games short in the end cause they didn't add needed parts that could of helped.. just because you prefer waiting til off season to make moves for next season ?


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I do not believe it will take 1 to 2 players to make a diffrence. The team will only go as far as Bryant, Rizzo, Soler and Russell will carry it. The only cure is time. A short term fix will not push this team forward.

I for one would rather have a team built for long term success. Winning a WS increases with teams built this this way vs teams built for 1 time events. Think of the Braves vs the Marlins. Braves were in it every year. Fish only 2x's and they had to wrecking ball the team both times because it was not sustainable.

Theo would not have wrecked the team and built it up just to break it again. He said that they were going to build it from the bottom up. They were going to develop their own talent and have a system in place to keep that prolonged success. Even the Dodgers shed contract last off season and are bringing up players like Joc Pederson. It is not like they planned on running a team like the Yanks did. They got a TV deal. Invested into the team with it and now are moving on with a long term plan.

I don't see the Cubs going over 130 mil. They have to keep that flexibility to retain what they have. As Baez, Russell and Bryant mature and get pricier they are going to have to have larger resource to retain. Like a TV deal and this park reno finished.

Now if Turner works out they really do not need a SP until Hammel comes up for F/A. By then Edwards could be ready. I see Edwards in the pen next year and moved to the rotation in his sophomore year. Arrieta has 2 years of control left. He is another they may think of retaining. He will not be cheap. Lester is in the fold. Turner will hit Arb 1 next year. So 3 years after this one to see if he is worth extending.

By that point the pitching depth that have been drafted will be pounding on the door.

I don't see a real issue with it to be honest. If they come up short...so be it. What I take it is Russell, Soler and Bryant have a year under their belt and seeing how this team has been relevant in their rookie years it only bodes well. They need to bolster their bench some to be better prepared for injury. Have a few quality arms in AAA for starter depth. We will see that soon as it is.

What you want to see is the team doing over all what the OF situation is. Baez goes down so the Bryant to LF is prolonged. Soler out at the same time but they still have Denorfia and Lake holding their own. Cog is hitting again. So the key is quality depth. You need that every where.

So no I would not like to see them trade away farm depth for a rent. I would rather them see what they have this year. Then this offseason make a decision on if they need to invest. Now if Turner becomes the next Arrieta is there a need? Not really. If Baez gets up for the last 2 months and produces like he was in AAA do you want to block his playing time? No.

What they need to do is figure out if they think Fowler is their guy in CF or not for next year. Is Alcantara? Will Almora be that guy? So if they are going to invest into anything CF may be the spot in the off season.

 

[Boobaby1]

The Cubs aren't winning the World Series this year. Im not dumping the farm for a rental. The Cubs aren't going to go for it like the A's last year. Their trades will be thought out for future not present. This team is not one of the top teams. No one is saying they won't do some trades, but they aren't going to sacrifice years for one year.

I don't think you have to sacrifice much of anything. The A's are going to trade Kazmir. I mean, why would they hold him?

You don't get too many chances to make runs at a playoff spot, and you need to take advantage of it whether you make it as a WC team, or search for a division title.

You can point to next year as the most realistic chance, but they could be bitten by the injury bug (because it does happen) and not have this chance again until the following year. I am not saying to push the panic button.

I am merely saying to take the opportunity if it presents itself.

I would rather take a chance with a starter and some bullpen help then I would a LF'er at this point, because I think the Cubs have a fair amount now internally, and/or when LaStella and Baez come back, this would open up some opportunities and strengthen the bench as well.

The Cubs could probably get Kazmir him for Billy McKinney or thereabouts, and pick up the rest of his contract.

All of a sudden, a rotation of Lester, Arrieta, Kazmir, Hammel and Hendricks is a lot more palatable. What it also does is increases the chances to go on sustained runs in winning, OR, stops losing streaks when you throw better pitching out there.

Riddle me this? Would you rather lose someone like McKinney (who in all likelihood is blocked) and throw Kazmir into the rotation, put Wada as your pitching depth, or remain status quo?

I know which direction I am going.

edit: This of course is only my opinion if the Cubs are staying in contention.

 

[CSF77]

I don't think you have to sacrifice much of anything. The A's are going to trade Kazmir. I mean, why would they hold him?

You don't get too many chances to make runs at a playoff spot, and you need to take advantage of it whether you make it as a WC team, or search for a division title.

You can point to next year as the most realistic chance, but they could be bitten by the injury bug (because it does happen) and not have this chance again until the following year. I am not saying to push the panic button.

I am merely saying to take the opportunity if it presents itself.

I would rather take a chance with a starter and some bullpen help then I would a LF'er at this point, because I think the Cubs have a fair amount now internally, and/or when LaStella and Baez come back, this would open up some opportunities and strengthen the bench as well.

The Cubs could probably get Kazmir him for Billy McKinney or thereabouts, and pick up the rest of his contract.

All of a sudden, a rotation of Lester, Arrieta, Kazmir, Hammel and Hendricks is a lot more palatable. What it also does is increases the chances to go on sustained runs in winning, OR, stops losing streaks when you throw better pitching out there.

Riddle me this? Would you rather lose someone like McKinney (who in all likelihood is blocked) and throw Kazmir into the rotation, put Wada as your pitching depth, or remain status quo?

I know which direction I am going.

edit: This of course is only my opinion if the Cubs are staying in contention.

Rather they wait to see if Turner can step up into that role. We are talking about the #5. Kaz is a 4 if they trade for him.

I would rather have them retain. The only exception is Sonny Gray. That is someone who you think long and hard about. But KAz? Only if Turner comes up short or injured again.

 

[czman]

So TC and CSF..
If after AS break the cubs are 10 games over .500 and 3 back of Cardinals, you guys wouldn't want them to add a TOR type starter and or a LFer to help them make a strong run this year.

Youd rather they sit back and play out season as is even if it means falling a couple games short in the end cause they didn't add needed parts that could of helped.. just because you prefer waiting til off season to make moves for next season ?


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Well right now the Cubs are 5 games over 500 and 6.5 back of the Cardinals. Since April 28th the Cubs have played 500 ball.

I don't understand this notion that making a move automatically makes you better and a contender and standing pat automatically means you throwing in the towel. Additionally, teams are not going to just give away a TOR and a stud LF. The Cubs would have to part with a lot of assets to bring in guys who may or may not make the team better.

have teams made mid season moves and catapulted themselves into a WS....yes. Far more frequently though the moves fall on softly and the teams are worse off long term.

The Cubs need to be looking long term for at least this season, and possibly next too. They are probably 4 years before their core players are all in their peak years at the same time. Sometimes the best thing for a team is time.

 

[TL1961]

That carries a high cost and you're talking a year that doesn't look particularly winnable. The Dodgers and Nationals are built for playoff runs even if they sputter to get there and the Cardinals are who they are. This team has gotten ahead of itself and it's fun and all but would you sacrifice a 4 year window of higher percentage chance runs for a low percentage run before your pieces are in place? I just don't want them to do that. Let's watch this play out, make some reasonable moves like Soriano and if there's a long term play for a young starter do that. Anything else would be sacrificing a long term plan for instant gratification.

I wouldn't. And more importantly, Theo and Jed won't.

 

[TC in Mississippi]

So TC and CSF..
If after AS break the cubs are 10 games over .500 and 3 back of Cardinals, you guys wouldn't want them to add a TOR type starter and or a LFer to help them make a strong run this year.

Youd rather they sit back and play out season as is even if it means falling a couple games short in the end cause they didn't add needed parts that could of helped.. just because you prefer waiting til off season to make moves for next season ?


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Well first I don't believe your hypothetical will happen. If they get closer than 4 games at any point I'll be shocked. I see a growing team that's learning to win and stumbling back from time to time too. If a move for a young pitcher presents itself, like Sonny Gray, you get that done. Otherwise nip at the edges, try internal options and learn to win. If circumstances change, say the division becomes winnable due to injury, then change with circumstance.

 

[TC in Mississippi]

I wouldn't. And more importantly, Theo and Jed won't.

I agree.

 

[chibears55]

The Cubs aren't winning the World Series this year. Im not dumping the farm for a rental. The Cubs aren't going to go for it like the A's last year.

wasn't talking about trading kids for rentals, that I wouldn't do either.. im saying if their still in striking distance come july, they should make that bold move then for a starter like hamel, gray, or whomever like that and maybe a guy who can play LF like Zobrist..

I do not believe it will take 1 to 2 players to make a diffrence. The team will only go as far as Bryant, Rizzo, Soler and Russell will carry it. The only cure is time. A short term fix will not push this team forward.

again im not talking about rentals just for this year..

I don't understand this notion that making a move automatically makes you better and a contender and standing pat automatically means you throwing in the towel. Additionally, teams are not going to just give away a TOR and a stud LF. The Cubs would have to part with a lot of assets to bring in guys who may or may not make the team better

.

making a move for a top starter don't make you better ? youd rather stay with wada and or Hendricks ? didn't say staying pat is throwing in the towel, I just said staying pat could have them fall a couple games out of the playoffs...
I didn't say a stud LFer , just better one then the merry go round they got going now out there..
example : Gray and Zobrist would be an upgrade that should help the team this year and next couple of years.. that's where im going with this

I think some of you forget, most of the team now position wise is already set with younger players except LF.. Montero will be back and they can easily resign Fowler..
so, they have some moveable pieces in the system..

Well first I don't believe your hypothetical will happen. If they get closer than 4 games at any point I'll be shocked. I see a growing team that's learning to win and stumbling back from time to time too. If a move for a young pitcher presents itself, like Sonny Gray, you get that done

that could be tonight, as their only 5 back of the cards in the lost column now.. cardinals are hurting and due for a bit of a fall soon..
im talking about starters like gray, or maybe Harvey, and yes hamel if they work out a reasonable deal players wise..

 

[Diehardfan]

I don't care what the question is.....but Lake is not the answer. Soler has that ball easily.

 

[TL1961]

I don't care what the question is.....but Lake is not the answer. Soler has that ball easily.

I kept suggesting the guy be used for specific tools, vs. as a regular. (I realize injuries are why he is starting.) But this guy just isn't going to cut it.

Even when he does something positive, he then showboats. I have no use for this guy going forward.