IST: Reds vs Cubs

[bamainatlanta]

Baez still swinging it. M-V-P

 

[Briggs is GOAT]

Baez has to be the front runner for MVP

 

[chibears55]

Heyward now 11 hits last 55 AB .200

With Bote playing well, Maybe when Bryant returns , he'll start a few games in OF to give Heyward some extra days off..

Having a guy like Murphy with his bat, gives them more flexibility to give guys off without losing too much offense in the lineup...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

 

[TL1961]

It's clear you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about. You've seized on Contreras' pitch framing in a post hoc fallacy for the Cubs' recent starting pitching struggles (somehow his pitch framing doesn't affect the performance bullpen--a phenomenon I'd love to see you explain) without presenting a single data point to support your argument. The sophistication of your explanation boils down to, "They used to be better and now they're not, therefore Contreras." You completely ignore age, regression, injury, normal performance fluctuations, changes to the rotation, a new pitching coach, etc. as relevant factors. Moreover, you overstate the important of pitch framing itself while ignoring all the other facets of Contreras' game which more than make up for any deficiencies he has at stealing a couple extra strikes per game. You know, little things like offense, defense, and baserunning. Things most other catchers tend to really suck at, to put it terms you'll understand. So congrats, you've clowned yourself.

Our bullpen has been very good, in spite of their biggest problem: walks.

 

[DanTown]

Catcher is very vague

You quoted Fangraphs definition of C defense as your defense and then I point out to you by that metric, Willson is a top end defensive C and now you're like "it's vague"? Just give it up, you had an opinion on Willson's value as a catcher SOLELY due to pitch framing and then when challenged, you now fall back to an opinion that pitch framing is the end all of catching EVEN THOUGH YOU QUOTED FANGRAPHS WHO SAYS DIFFERENTLY

 

[beckdawg]

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.a...8&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

Has Willson AT WORST a top 5 defensive C.

From a pure defense stand point yeah. If you're including framing on top of that I'd argue he's much more middle of the pack. BP has his framing stats 103 out of 104. I'm not sure if framing quite counts as "defense" but it's sort of defense adjacent.

 

[Diehardfan]

Does corking your bat even give you any advantage?

If it didn't, it wouldn't be illegal....if it didn't, no one would take a chance getting caught. Forget about scientific mumbo jumbo...the players know.

 

[beckdawg]

Cards lose. Magic number is 30. It's 29 vs MIL

 

[bamainatlanta]

Cards lose. Magic number is 30. It's 29 vs MIL

Brewers lost by the same score. Lol

 

[CSF77]

You quoted Fangraphs definition of C defense as your defense and then I point out to you by that metric, Willson is a top end defensive C and now you're like "it's vague"? Just give it up, you had an opinion on Willson's value as a catcher SOLELY due to pitch framing and then when challenged, you now fall back to an opinion that pitch framing is the end all of catching EVEN THOUGH YOU QUOTED FANGRAPHS WHO SAYS DIFFERENTLY

Fangraphs also says catcher is a very vague position to define. They bring up metrics to compare and do post other sites that measure framing. But there is no single stat that rates them.

You have blocking
Throwing
Framing
Game calling

IMO the first two are stronger at first and wear with age and the last two improve with age.

As far as being a athlete he is one of the best. Framing one of the worst. Game calling I’m not sure honestly because the pitching has improved recently.


What I would like to see is a OBA against stat for catchers. That way you see how they compare to their back up. As far as other catchers it is not a good medium because the factors are not stable. Basically not the same pitchers.

 

[anotheridiot]

After clobbering balls in BP, looks like Bryant will start rehab Monday in Iowa.. looking good for a September 1st return

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

they say he IS holding onto the bat with both hands now to protect that left shoulder and the ball is going farther.

 

[TL1961]

From a pure defense stand point yeah. If you're including framing on top of that I'd argue he's much more middle of the pack. BP has his framing stats 103 out of 104. I'm not sure if framing quite counts as "defense" but it's sort of defense adjacent.

The whole discussion has been twisted.

First, I mentioned framing, and some here have chosen to use defensive stats - that don't account for framing - to refute that. I have no problems with his overall D, though I do think he makes more errors than he should. But the FRAMING was the piece I have problems with, for obvious reasons. 103rd of 104 needs no explanation. But some, who want to believe all Cubs are best at everything, have taken to pointing out stolen base prevention to make their case even though that was never the subject.

 

[Parade_Rain]

Fangraphs also says catcher is a very vague position to define. They bring up metrics to compare and do post other sites that measure framing. But there is no single stat that rates them.

You have blocking
Throwing
Framing
Game calling

IMO the first two are stronger at first and wear with age and the last two improve with age.

As far as being a athlete he is one of the best. Framing one of the worst. Game calling I’m not sure honestly because the pitching has improved recently.


What I would like to see is a OBA against stat for catchers. That way you see how they compare to their back up. As far as other catchers it is not a good medium because the factors are not stable. Basically not the same pitchers.

Interesting about the OBA, but that still doesn't really work when you have personal catchers signed for specific pitchers.

 

[fatbeard]

The whole discussion has been twisted.

First, I mentioned framing, and some here have chosen to use defensive stats - that don't account for framing - to refute that. I have no problems with his overall D, though I do think he makes more errors than he should. But the FRAMING was the piece I have problems with, for obvious reasons. 103rd of 104 needs no explanation. But some, who want to believe all Cubs are best at everything, have taken to pointing out stolen base prevention to make their case even though that was never the subject.

No one is arguing that Contreras doesn't need to work on his framing. What some of us take issue with is the idiotic take that Contreras is "killing" the Cubs because of his framing while ignoring the rest of his tools that make him a very valuable catcher.

 

[fatbeard]

Baez has to be the front runner for MVP

There really isn't a frontrunner right now. Carpenter has cooled a bit recently, and he, Baez, Arenado, Freeman, and Goldschmidt are all worthy candidates. You could throw Cain in as well. Baez probably has the best case in terms of "all-around" performance, and if he gets to 30-30 I think the BBWAA would have a hard time overlooking that hasn't been done since Trout in 2012.

 

[TL1961]

I saw Contreras as a dark horse MVP candidate to open the season, so understand I don't hate the guy.

When he went on his 8 day torrid streak in july, I saw what an offensive weapon he can be. But it died as quickly as it started.

He is a good baserunner when using his head. But he is also prone to some real dumb moves when being overaggressive. He, like Rizzo, sometimes makes real dumb decisions.

It is unfair of me to say he is "killing us" overall. And I am comparing that to what I believe he is capable of, rather than just the average catcher around the league. So I will admit that is overly critical.

But he kills a lot of innings offensively. I know we say he has skills, but he has underperformed this season. He has shown little power, and has contributed far less than he is capable of offensively. I keep waiting for him to bust out, as I know he is capable of carrying the team. I do believe he has those skills. They just are not on display as they could be.

But it's far more idiotic to believe that his overall package defensively - when the critical framing is such a large part of that - is one of the best in baseball. Considering slowing a running game in today's game - where nobody runs much - as important as the framing, is far more unrealistic.

 

[Parade_Rain]

Joe Maddon no fan of analytics that say Willson Contreras is poor at pitch-framing

According to Statcorner.com, 3.5 pitches per game go against the Cubs when Contreras is catching. Welington Castillo of the White Sox is ranked as the worst with a minus-6.6 rating. The Dodgers’ Yasmani Grandal leads all catchers with a favorable 7.6 pitch average.

“It’s almost like zone rating on defense,” Maddon said. “To me, that’s kind of weird stuff, too. Some of that just depends upon where you start your guy to begin with. Dexter (Fowler) was much better just by playing him deeper? Come on.

“There’s a lot of this stuff that gives people jobs, in a sense, where they get to analyze data and throw something out there. But at the end of the day, I think Willson is a very good catcher.”

Maddon went as far to say that he would take Contreras, 26, over almost any other catcher in baseball. He defended his stance and pointed out Yu Darvish and Tyler Chatwood aren’t easy to catch because of their command issues, while backup catcher Victor Caratini has been paired frequently with control maven Kyle Hendricks.

“I’m not trying to make an excuse, but I really believe that,” Maddon said, adding the strike zones of individual umpires also play a factor.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sport...n-contreras-pitch-framing-20180523-story.html

I will let Maddon speak regarding framing in general and his views on Contreras, the ASG starter.

 

[fatbeard]

I saw Contreras as a dark horse MVP candidate to open the season, so understand I don't hate the guy.

When he went on his 8 day torrid streak in july, I saw what an offensive weapon he can be. But it died as quickly as it started.

He is a good baserunner when using his head. But he is also prone to some real dumb moves when being overaggressive. He, like Rizzo, sometimes makes real dumb decisions.

It is unfair of me to say he is "killing us" overall. And I am comparing that to what I believe he is capable of, rather than just the average catcher around the league. So I will admit that is overly critical.

But he kills a lot of innings offensively. I know we say he has skills, but he has underperformed this season. He has shown little power, and has contributed far less than he is capable of offensively. I keep waiting for him to bust out, as I know he is capable of carrying the team. I do believe he has those skills. They just are not on display as they could be.

But it's far more idiotic to believe that his overall package defensively - when the critical framing is such a large part of that - is one of the best in baseball. Considering slowing a running game in today's game - where nobody runs much - as important as the framing, is far more unrealistic.

Shutting down a running game is pretty important when your best SP can't throw the ball to a base.

As for Contreras' "underperforming" offense (the guy's still at 111 wRC+), he's a young player with fewer than 1200 PAs at the MLB level. It happens.

 

[Omeletpants]

I think Contreras is a bit overrated as a player, but underrated as a team leader. It's obvious he wants to be that guy and that Maddon is fostering it. Contreras will be our catcher for the next 10 years, like it or not

 

[TL1961]

Shutting down a running game is pretty important when your best SP can't throw the ball to a base.

As for Contreras' "underperforming" offense (the guy's still at 111 wRC+), he's a young player with fewer than 1200 PAs at the MLB level. It happens.

That's my point!

He has great potential. I don't want him gone. I just am able to evaluate this season for what it is, even if I believe he can be great. He will continue to get better and he does have great potential. But that does not mean he has had a great season.