Jed Hoyer Disses Cubs Fans

[Gustavus Adolphus]

You mean the Marlin team with NL Rookie of the year Jose Fernandez and Giancarlo Stanton? They were able to spend money on the big league team while developing their minor league system, and still have the talent to show for it. I truly don't understand why you guys make excuses for Cubs management. They're clearly tanking with these mediocre roster moves every offseason, which should be frowned upon by a loyal fanbase of a big market club, with the highest ticket prices in the league to boot.

Yeah, I'm talking about winning one world series, or being in contention seemingly every year.

Thanks for playing though.

 

[ChiSoxCity]

lmfao @ citing Fernandez. The fact that he won ROY over Puig is laughable at best.

Stanton is nice. He's not elite. He hits balls really far, and he could be a core piece if surrounded by good talent...but there's a reason no one blew the minds of the Marlins brass in a trade for Stanton. The dude missed about 50 games, batted under .250 and hit 24 homers last year.

Not sure if you're just upset @ the Sox right now or what...Why you upset?

I'm a little annoyed by Cubs fans, not upset though. As far as Fernandez goes, I'm not arguing whether he deserved ROY or not. PretentiousBastard brought up the Cardinals and Marlins... I'm using Fernandez and Stanton to illustrate my point that you can spend $100M+ at the big league level and still develop a pipeline of talent in the minors.

One teams that has NOT been successful translating minor league talent into wins at the big league level is Seattle. Despite having one of the top farm systems in the MLB, the big league team pretty much sucks every year. You cannot rely on prospects to contend, you need a solid core of elite talent somewhere on your roster.

This is all a ruse anyway. The Cubs are being used to generate cash flow at the expense of roster salary, which most Cubs fans choose to ignore.

 

[beckdawg]

I'm using Fernandez and Stanton to illustrate my point that you can spend $100M+ at the big league level and still develop a pipeline of talent in the minors.

Um what? You mean the Miami team with an opening day payroll of $50,526,900? In fact, they haven't spent more than $60 mil in any year save for 2012 and then immediately blew it up when they didn't do well.

2013: $ 50,526,900
2012: $101,628,000
2011: $ 57,695,000
2010: $ 47,429,719
2009: $ 36,834,000
2008: $ 21,811,500
2007: $ 30,507,000
2006: $ 14,998,500
2005: $ 60,408,834
2004: $ 42,143,042
2003: $ 45,050,000
2002: $ 41,979,917
2001: $ 35,762,500
2000: $ 19,900,000

So yeah... if that was your point it's not really illustrating what you think it is and is in fact contradictory.

At the end of the day the problem the cubs had was no talent in the minors and very little in the majors. In order to contend they would have had to dump truck loads of money. I'm not talking about Fielder. I'm talking about Fielder plus Beltran plus Darvish. And the ownership wasn't going to do that. I could really illustrate this using WAR but I honestly can't be arsed.

It's easy to say that teams can get top level talent while contending but quite frankly not many teams are the Cardinals. If you have a top 10 pick you're far more likely to pull an all-star type than if you're picking 20-30. It's not really a coincidence that 3 of the top prospects in the cubs system were all top 10 picks. And that's not to say teams shouldn't be able to find quality talent later. But, if you need quick talent now top 10 picks are the way to go. Teams like the Cards have the luxury to let talent develop in the minors because they've built through their farm so long that it continually produces and when it doesn't they can make timely FA signings and trades. They aren't just throwing money at the problems.

Also, why is no one on here killing the Mets? They are doing the exact same thing the cubs are. They've gone from $143 mil to 94 mil since 2011. They finally have some of their talent hitting the majors and look to be an up and coming team assuming Harvey gets health.

 

[nwfisch]

Yeah, I'm talking about winning one world series, or being in contention seemingly every year.

Thanks for playing though.

The Marlins won 2 World Series.

Thanks for playing Prope the Dope.

 

[FirstTimer]

I'm just looking at the big picture. Chicago is a huge market with and multiple teams worth a $Billionaire or more. There is no excuse for pulling out the pocket book for a team that hasn't won a championship since 1908. Telling fans not to be impatient at this point is insulting, especially considering the payroll dumping and acquisition of mediocre players on multiple year contracts. You can develop a farm system while improving the big league roster at the same time.

Remember how well it worked for the Cubs the last time they had a crazy high payroll?

 

[FirstTimer]

Um what? You mean the Miami team with an opening day payroll of $50,526,900? In fact, they haven't spent more than $60 mil in any year save for 2012 and then immediately blew it up when they didn't do well.



So yeah... if that was your point it's not really illustrating what you think it is and is in fact contradictory.

At the end of the day the problem the cubs had was no talent in the minors and very little in the majors. In order to contend they would have had to dump truck loads of money. I'm not talking about Fielder. I'm talking about Fielder plus Beltran plus Darvish. And the ownership wasn't going to do that. I could really illustrate this using WAR but I honestly can't be arsed.

It's easy to say that teams can get top level talent while contending but quite frankly not many teams are the Cardinals. If you have a top 10 pick you're far more likely to pull an all-star type than if you're picking 20-30. It's not really a coincidence that 3 of the top prospects in the cubs system were all top 10 picks. And that's not to say teams shouldn't be able to find quality talent later. But, if you need quick talent now top 10 picks are the way to go. Teams like the Cards have the luxury to let talent develop in the minors because they've built through their farm so long that it continually produces and when it doesn't they can make timely FA signings and trades. They aren't just throwing money at the problems.

Also, why is no one on here killing the Mets? They are doing the exact same thing the cubs are. They've gone from $143 mil to 94 mil since 2011. They finally have some of their talent hitting the majors and look to be an up and coming team assuming Harvey gets health.

I agree with what you are saying but please everyone QUIT USING WAR TO ADD UP WINS. THAT'S NOT HOW IT WORKS.

 

[chibears55]

a couple things here..

i find it interesting that some are complaining now about where the cubs payroll is, the cubs havent had a payroll over 100 M until 2008 when coincidentally the team was about to be sold by sam zell..
soriano contract went from 10 mil in 2007 to 14 mil in 2008,17 mil 2009,19 mil in 2010
ramirez contract went from 9 MIl in 2007, 15 mil 2008, 16.5 mil 2009, 16.75 mil 2010
zambrano contract went from 12.4 mil in 2007 to 16 mil 2008, 18.75 mil 2009, 18.75 mil 2010
lee contract went from 9.4 mil to 13.25 mil 2007 - 2010

so, the cubs were never really spending money on the big league level to where they were capable to until they were being sold and needed to up the value of the team... to complain now after a couple seasons of this current ownership and calling them cheap ( which i find ridiculous because they have poured money into the draft, academy, ST site, international signings, rebuilding WF, etc.) all things that will help them keep their own stars and bring in future star FAs.


the cardinals...

people seem to forget that the cardinals didnt start making their run here until 2000, before that they were just an AVG. to bad team for a few years ..
the cardinals drafted well and hit on a few of their prospects, and they had a class organization that groomed their prospects right and they were ready when called upon. the one thing i noticed about the cardinals since 2000 was that they always had/have a good core of veterans and added in their younger players to compliment them.. they have been able to keep the line moving sorta speak..



the cubs havent been able to do that because they signed their good veteran players to big money and years past their primes, so they werent able to move them or bring up kids to replace them.. you can disagree but fact is they didnt draft very well, and they didnt teach very well in their system... players were either rushed up before they were ready or they werent prepared the right way to play in the majors...

what i mainly mean by drafting well is for example you have players like ramirez and lee entering their 30's and 4-5 yrs away from FA, so wouldnt you make sure you have depth in your organization at 3B and 1B to replace them ? what happened when Lee was traded ? they had to sign a 28 YO 1B in lahair that was released by the mariners minor league because they had no one in their system, then had to trade for another minor league 1B in rizzo.
they had 1 player to replace ramirez in josh vitters who bombed, and ended up bringing in ian stewart and eventually wound up with a journeymen in valbuana..

this is an example of how bad they had drafted and prepared themselves, this is the difference between the cardinals and the cubs...
this is why most of us are not overly upset with them breaking down the team for a couple of years and redoing it the right way by fixing the minor league and making sure there depth from rookie ball on up so when its time for an aging vet to go, their not left scrambling to find a replacement..

 

[Boobaby1]

a couple things here..

i find it interesting that some are complaining now about where the cubs payroll is, the cubs havent had a payroll over 100 M until 2008 when coincidentally the team was about to be sold by sam zell..
soriano contract went from 10 mil in 2007 to 14 mil in 2008,17 mil 2009,19 mil in 2010
ramirez contract went from 9 MIl in 2007, 15 mil 2008, 16.5 mil 2009, 16.75 mil 2010
zambrano contract went from 12.4 mil in 2007 to 16 mil 2008, 18.75 mil 2009, 18.75 mil 2010
lee contract went from 9.4 mil to 13.25 mil 2007 - 2010

so, the cubs were never really spending money on the big league level to where they were capable to until they were being sold and needed to up the value of the team... to complain now after a couple seasons of this current ownership and calling them cheap ( which i find ridiculous because they have poured money into the draft, academy, ST site, international signings, rebuilding WF, etc.) all things that will help them keep their own stars and bring in future star FAs.


the cardinals...

people seem to forget that the cardinals didnt start making their run here until 2000, before that they were just an AVG. to bad team for a few years ..
the cardinals drafted well and hit on a few of their prospects, and they had a class organization that groomed their prospects right and they were ready when called upon. the one thing i noticed about the cardinals since 2000 was that they always had/have a good core of veterans and added in their younger players to compliment them.. they have been able to keep the line moving sorta speak..



the cubs havent been able to do that because they signed their good veteran players to big money and years past their primes, so they werent able to move them or bring up kids to replace them.. you can disagree but fact is they didnt draft very well, and they didnt teach very well in their system... players were either rushed up before they were ready or they werent prepared the right way to play in the majors...

what i mainly mean by drafting well is for example you have players like ramirez and lee entering their 30's and 4-5 yrs away from FA, so wouldnt you make sure you have depth in your organization at 3B and 1B to replace them ? what happened when Lee was traded ? they had to sign a 28 YO 1B in lahair that was released by the mariners minor league because they had no one in their system, then had to trade for another minor league 1B in rizzo.
they had 1 player to replace ramirez in josh vitters who bombed, and ended up bringing in ian stewart and eventually wound up with a journeymen in valbuana..

this is an example of how bad they had drafted and prepared themselves, this is the difference between the cardinals and the cubs...
this is why most of us are not overly upset with them breaking down the team for a couple of years and redoing it the right way by fixing the minor league and making sure there depth from rookie ball on up so when its time for an aging vet to go, their not left scrambling to find a replacement..

With the Cubs payroll going to ridiculously low levels not seen in many, many years, again I ask why the Cubs would lose to anyone in the Tanaka sweepstakes?

He is a free agent, part of a long term plan, doesn't cost any of the farm, and is what the Cubs desperately need.

Aside from the Yankees and Dodgers courting him as the biggest hitters, would it really be a bad thing to blow them out of the water and win the bid? Wouldn't this be the one move that would unite most fans abroad and get them completely on board with what the Cubs are trying to accomplish?

The Cubs have only been the high bidder once in my lifetime for the most coveted free agent on the market and that was Soriano. This would totally go against that signing as Tanaka is in his prime, and the two biggest competitors are trying to lock up their own free agents.

What would Tanaka cost in theory to win the bid? I am guessing including posting fees, somewhere in the 6 year, 25 million per range. Ironically, that is what Price is going to demand, and it won't cost any of the farm.

Couple Tanaka, Wood (trade Shark), and the youngsters like Hendricks, Edwards, and whomever else blossoms, and now the starting staff becomes relatively inexpensive and really young.

Do you pull the trigger or not?

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

The Marlins won 2 World Series.

Thanks for playing Prope the Dope.

You don't say?

 

[beckdawg]

With the Cubs payroll going to ridiculously low levels not seen in many, many years, again I ask why the Cubs would lose to anyone in the Tanaka sweepstakes?

I agree with what you're saying about Tanaka to an extent. However can we please stop talking about the "ridiculously low" payroll numbers? It's a total exaggeration. People act like they are $50-75 mil. They were 14th in spending to start 2013 and that's with them cutting salary for basically 2 years. It seems unlikely for them to have less money to spend this off season than where they were to start 2013 because that's essentially were they were in 2012. And even when they were cutting money they were only $20 mil less than the same White Sox in the same city which amounts to 1-2 above average FAs. And let's be real, did that $20 mil more in spending really help the White Sox last year?

New York Yankees $228,995,945
Los Angeles Dodgers $216,302,909
Philadelphia $159,578,214
Boston $158,967,286
Detroit $149,046,844
San Francisco $142,180,333
Los Angeles Angels $142,165,250
Texas $127,197,575
Chicago White Sox $124,065,277
Toronto $118,244,039
St. Louis $116,702,085
Washington $112,431,770
Cincinnati $110,565,728
Chicago Cubs $104,150,726
Baltimore $91,793,333
Milwaukee $91,003,366
Arizona $90,158,500
Atlanta $89,288,193
New York Mets $88,877,033
Seattle $84,295,952
Cleveland $82,517,300
Kansas City $80,491,725
Minnesota $75,562,500
Colorado $75,449,071
San Diego $71,689,900
Oakland $68,577,000
Pittsburgh $66,289,524
Tampa Bay $57,030,272
Miami $39,621,900
Houston $24,328,538

 

[chibears55]

With the Cubs payroll going to ridiculously low levels not seen in many, many years,

many many years ??? even if it stands at 100 Mil. your only going as far back as 2007 when it was at 99 Mil to be that low...
soriano, ramirez, zambrano, and fukudome app. 68 Mil accounted for almost half of their payroll of 144 Mil in 2010, tell me that was money well spent..
besides years 2008-2011, when payroll got jacked by giving these players crazy amounts to increase the value of the team before it got sold, the cubs payroll has been near 100 mil or less every year before...

again I ask why the Cubs would lose to anyone in the Tanaka sweepstakes?

because they outbid the cubs if the processing stays the same...

What would Tanaka cost in theory to win the bid? I am guessing including posting fees, somewhere in the 6 year, 25 million per range. Ironically, that is what Price is going to demand, and it won't cost any of the farm

to win the bid if the process remains the same, prob. in the neighborhood between 60-100 MIl depending on what teams bid for him..

i think 25 mil per is way to high for him and would be a desperate offer from any team who wins the rights to negotiate with him..

the problem wont be how much and for how long of a contract for him, the problem will be how much do you give up in posting fees just to talk to him..

if you think he worth a 100 Mil, then gamble that 100 Mil and hope no other team goes over and really hope that he was worth 100 mil and whatever you pay him to get him to sign..

 

[Boobaby1]

many many years ??? even if it stands at 100 Mil. your only going as far back as 2007 when it was at 99 Mil to be that low...
soriano, ramirez, zambrano, and fukudome app. 68 Mil accounted for almost half of their payroll of 144 Mil in 2010, tell me that was money well spent..
besides years 2008-2011, when payroll got jacked by giving these players crazy amounts to increase the value of the team before it got sold, the cubs payroll has been near 100 mil or less every year before...



because they outbid the cubs if the processing stays the same...



to win the bid if the process remains the same, prob. in the neighborhood between 60-100 MIl depending on what teams bid for him..

i think 25 mil per is way to high for him and would be a desperate offer from any team who wins the rights to negotiate with him..

the problem wont be how much and for how long of a contract for him, the problem will be how much do you give up in posting fees just to talk to him..

if you think he worth a 100 Mil, then gamble that 100 Mil and hope no other team goes over and really hope that he was worth 100 mil and whatever you pay him to get him to sign..

2014 Commitments

Soriano 13 mil (final year)
Jackson 11 mil
Castro 5 mil
Villy 5 mil
Fujikawa 4 mil
Soler 2 mil
Rizzo 1.5 mil
Sweeney 1.5 mil
Castillo .5 mil

= 43.5 million

Arbitration Eligible Players

Shark 4.9 mil
Schierholz 3.8 mil
Wood 3.6 mil
Barney 2.1 mil
Bard 1.9 mil
Russell 1.7 mil
Valbuena 1.5 mil
Strop 1 mil
Murphy 1 mil

= 21.5 million

The Cubs payroll currently stands at about 65 million, and guys like Lake, Olt, Arrieta, and a back-up catcher are going to come real cheap.

In reality, you should have 20 Cubs players with payroll around 70 million.

When was the last time it was that cheap?

Tell me again why they can't outbid other teams for Tanaka because I'm all ears.

 

[SilenceS]

Jed Hoyer disses Cubs fans

2014 Commitments

Soriano 13 mil (final year)
Jackson 11 mil
Castro 5 mil
Villy 5 mil
Fujikawa 4 mil
Soler 2 mil
Rizzo 1.5 mil
Sweeney 1.5 mil
Castillo .5 mil

= 43.5 million

Arbitration Eligible Players

Shark 4.9 mil
Schierholz 3.8 mil
Wood 3.6 mil
Barney 2.1 mil
Bard 1.9 mil
Russell 1.7 mil
Valbuena 1.5 mil
Strop 1 mil
Murphy 1 mil

= 21.5 million

The Cubs payroll currently stands at about 65 million, and guys like Lake, Olt, Arrieta, and a back-up catcher are going to come real cheap.

In reality, you should have 20 Cubs players with payroll around 70 million.

When was the last time it was that cheap?

Tell me again why they can't outbid other teams for Tanaka because I'm all ears.

Cause ricketts doesn't plan to spend any money until his side projects are done. I'm thinking not until 2019 will ricketts not even entertain a big payroll.

 

[CSF77]

2014 Commitments

Soriano 13 mil (final year)
Jackson 11 mil
Castro 5 mil
Villy 5 mil
Fujikawa 4 mil
Soler 2 mil
Rizzo 1.5 mil
Sweeney 1.5 mil
Castillo .5 mil

= 43.5 million

Arbitration Eligible Players

Shark 4.9 mil
Schierholz 3.8 mil
Wood 3.6 mil
Barney 2.1 mil
Bard 1.9 mil
Russell 1.7 mil
Valbuena 1.5 mil
Strop 1 mil
Murphy 1 mil

= 21.5 million

The Cubs payroll currently stands at about 65 million, and guys like Lake, Olt, Arrieta, and a back-up catcher are going to come real cheap.

In reality, you should have 20 Cubs players with payroll around 70 million.

When was the last time it was that cheap?

Tell me again why they can't outbid other teams for Tanaka because I'm all ears.

The bid doesn't count against Lux tax. So teams like LAD and NYY that are at or over the tax can dump 100 mil into a bid that doesn't count against it. Then they can sign him starting at 8 mil that does count. VS spending 14-16 on Garza that would for the same value of a starter.

It makes alot of sense for those 2 teams to invest heavy.

Cubs do not have the resourse to pull off huge bids like those 2 teams can.

It really has nothing to do with payroll it has more to do with resource on hand. Think logically about it for a sec. They have been trying to find new resourse because cash is tight, They can not afford to dump 100 mil. Period.

 

[brett05]

...


Yankees


Dodgers


Additionally, neither of those 2 teams are about to undertake $300 mil in renovations nor did the owners just shell out a bunch of money for the team. If you want to make the case that the Ricketts shouldn't have been allowed to buy the team if these issues held them back fine. I think it's a valid concern. But, at the end of the day these things impact the year to year budget for the front office. With that being said, I truly hope that if the front office pushes for a guy like Tanaka that the ownership might give them an advance on future payrolls in order to push them across the finish line.

Isn't that exactly what just happened with the Dodgers?

 

[nwfisch]

You don't say?

I do say, they beat your Yankees in 2003 if my memory serves correctly.

 

[Parade_Rain]

Isn't that exactly what just happened with the Dodgers?

Yeah. They didn't win the World Series either.

 

[brett05]

Yeah. They didn't win the World Series either.

True but we all know that's a shoot once you get to the playoffs.

 

[beckdawg]

Isn't that exactly what just happened with the Dodgers?

I don't know why I blanked on the dodgers purchase. But, they did just get the largest tv contract ever which off sets that. As for the renovations, not sure what you mean. The yanks have a new stadium that they had the ability to pay for some of it pre-build. The dodgers aren't doing any renovations AFAIK.

 

[brett05]

I don't know why I blanked on the dodgers purchase. But, they did just get the largest tv contract ever which off sets that. As for the renovations, not sure what you mean. The yanks have a new stadium that they had the ability to pay for some of it pre-build. The dodgers aren't doing any renovations AFAIK.

No, but it does explain where real ownership can do some things. Now granted the Dodgers are Platinum with I would say The Yankees just a hair below and the Cubs definitely a solid Gold.