Joe Maddon's Job Security

[Parade_Rain]

Cubs underachieved this season. Not sure why you're struggling to understand that.

Lol. No. They didn't under achieve. They over-achieved by 2 games. The Brewers over-achieved by 4.

 

[kapooncha]

Ah. So if the Cubs weren't considered the favorite, it makes all the difference in the world if Maddon sucks or not. LOL.

Lol. No. They didn't under achieve. They over-achieved by 2 games. The Brewers over-achieved by 4.

They were expected to win the division. They lost the division. They underachieved.

It's like adding 1+1 and you still can't do that math.

 

[Parade_Rain]

They were expected to win the division. They lost the division. They underachieved.

It's like adding 1+1 and you still can't do that math.

More LOL. The Cubs were expected to win the division with 93 wins.

 

[kapooncha]

More LOL. The Cubs were expected to win the division with 93 wins.

Did the Cubs win the division?

 

[Parade_Rain]

Did the Cubs win the division?

You are illogical and have no data or evidence other than your emotions. IOW, you are the last person who should be discussing adding 1+1.

 

[kapooncha]

You are illogical and have no data or evidence other than your emotions. IOW, you are the last person who should be discussing adding 1+1.

You're just being obtuse. But continue if you wish.

 

[Parade_Rain]

You're just being obtuse. But continue if you wish.

LOL. Your reasoning appears to be "Welp, the Cubs were picked to win the division." You continue to ignore everything surrounding the team that didn't go well along with the pythagorean of 93 wins winning the division. Guess what? 93 wins didn't win the division. 95 wins didn't win it either. Not only are you clueless, you are completely ignorant of how good the Brewers have been. 21-7 from Sept 1 on. The Cubs did their part. The Brewers have pulled an entire month out of their ass. Smarter people tip their cap to the Brewers and move on. The Cubs are still playing in October.

 

[chibears55]

Cubs underachieved this season. Not sure why you're struggling to understand that.

They didn't underachieve, they just had a bad September and lost a 5 game lead in final 20 games.

16-12 in September ..
Lost 4 of 6 to the Brewers ..
Losing a game to the lowly Reds and Whitesox ..
Ending the season at home against the Pirates and Cardinals and going 4-3..

Bullpen was a mess after losing Strop ..
Bats were very inconsistent ...

Brewers were insane, but 1 more win and that wouldn't of mattered

So. They didn't underachieve with 95 wins, they just didn't finish strong enough to hold off a red hot Brewers team

 

[Parade_Rain]

They didn't underachieve, they just had a bad September and lost a 5 game lead in final 20 games.

16-12 in September ..
Lost 4 of 6 to the Brewers ..
Losing a game to the lowly Reds and Whitesox ..
Ending the season at home against the Pirates and Cardinals and going 4-3..

Bullpen was a mess after losing Strop ..
Bats were very inconsistent ...

Brewers were insane, but 1 more win and that wouldn't of mattered

So. They didn't underachieve with 95 wins, they just didn't finish strong enough to hold off a red hot Brewers team

As good as their batting average may have been compared to the rest of the NL most of the season, they had way too many 1 run or less games. Bullpen good. Starting pitching was very solid down the stretch. This team lost a lot of pop in their bats this year and it's clear the coaching staff has no idea what's going on. I would be very surprised if the hitting coaches were kept at the MLB level after this season, depending on the result of this October. It's not likely this team makes it to the NLCS.

 

[beckdawg]

As good as their batting average may have been compared to the rest of the NL most of the season, they had way too many 1 run or less games. Bullpen good. Starting pitching was very solid down the stretch. This team lost a lot of pop in their bats this year and it's clear the coaching staff has no idea what's going on. I would be very surprised if the hitting coaches were kept at the MLB level after this season, depending on the result of this October. It's not likely this team makes it to the NLCS.

I'm not entirely sure it's fair to put it all on the coaching after one year. I mean it's not always fair when guys like that get fired but look at the progress Baez made. Look at how Heyward looks more like a MLB hitter again. I'd also argue Schwarber was better but not quite where he needs to be yet. For me anyways, it just comes down to young players playing poorly in high leverage situations. I'm not sure if that's statistically a normal thing for young guys but it wouldn't surprise me if it was.

If nothing else, this season will show guys they can't just breeze through the offseason. They have work to do. Say what you will about the struggles Heyward had but the guy put in the work.

 

[chibears55]

As good as their batting average may have been compared to the rest of the NL most of the season, they had way too many 1 run or less games. Bullpen good. Starting pitching was very solid down the stretch. This team lost a lot of pop in their bats this year and it's clear the coaching staff has no idea what's going on. I would be very surprised if the hitting coaches were kept at the MLB level after this season, depending on the result of this October. It's not likely this team makes it to the NLCS.

Agree...

Im gonna go a step further and i know it unpopular here but, it wouldn't surprise me if Joe does get the hook..

As far as players goes..

I see a few new faces coming in this offseason..
I think Theo going to change up a few things with the everyday guys..

Im not saying he cleaning house, just think he might move a couple of those young bats

 

[beckdawg]

Im gonna go a step further and i know it unpopular here but, it wouldn't surprise me if Joe does get the hook..

I don't see why you do that. You only make that sort of change if you have a lights out no doubt better candidate and I'm not sure I see one I like better. For example, people will point to Girardi but he has a career .554 win% and most of that was playing for the yankees. Maddon with the cubs is .597. Plus, if we're using this year as the justification to fire him that's kind of dumb IMO. They won 95 games under very poor circumstances. If Darvish and Bryant were healthy the full season this is probably a 100 win team.

 

[chibears55]

I'm not entirely sure it's fair to put it all on the coaching after one year. I mean it's not always fair when guys like that get fired but look at the progress Baez made. Look at how Heyward looks more like a MLB hitter again. I'd also argue Schwarber was better but not quite where he needs to be yet. For me anyways, it just comes down to young players playing poorly in high leverage situations. I'm not sure if that's statistically a normal thing for young guys but it wouldn't surprise me if it was.

If nothing else, this season will show guys they can't just breeze through the offseason. They have work to do. Say what you will about the struggles Heyward had but the guy put in the work.

Unfortunately Heyward just had 2 very good months, May and June.
He was on fire in June

July August September, he fell back into being his usual non productive self

.775 OPS 1st half
.670 OPS 2nd half

Maybe the injury set him back, but....

 

[beckdawg]

Unfortunately Heyward just had 2 very good months, May and June.
He was on fire in June

July August September, he fell back into being his usual non productive self

.775 OPS 1st half
.670 OPS 2nd half

Maybe the injury set him back, but....

Still finished the season with a 100 wRC+. That's after the previous 2 seasons were 72 and 88. Obviously given what he is paid you'd like more offense than that but it's progress and not a trivial amount. And like you said if injuries hurt him some he may be even better than that next year.

 

[chibears55]

I don't see why you do that. You only make that sort of change if you have a lights out no doubt better candidate and I'm not sure I see one I like better. For example, people will point to Girardi but he has a career .554 win% and most of that was playing for the yankees. Maddon with the cubs is .597. Plus, if we're using this year as the justification to fire him that's kind of dumb IMO. They won 95 games under very poor circumstances. If Darvish and Bryant were healthy the full season this is probably a 100 win team.

I dont disagree about the replacement part..


I just think if Epstein not planning on extending him after 2019, he may look into bringing in, whether it Girardi or someone else, this offseason over waiting another year...

I just have that feeling Epstein might want to change things up with both manager/coaches and some players ..

Maybe these young guys just need a new voice in the dugout and not uncle joe the fun guy who gives them excuses most of the time

 

[Omeletpants]

Agree...

Im gonna go a step further and i know it unpopular here but, it wouldn't surprise me if Joe does get the hook..

As far as players goes..

I see a few new faces coming in this offseason..
I think Theo going to change up a few things with the everyday guys..

Im not saying he cleaning house, just think he might move a couple of those young bats

I projected 6 months ago that Madden was gone if he missed the W.

 

[beckdawg]

Maybe these young guys just need a new voice in the dugout and not uncle joe the fun guy who gives them excuses most of the time

See this is where we'll have to disagree. To me this is all normal expectation for young players. I really feel like Bryant has skewed public opinion on how young players should perform. We've already hashed that out else where so I'm not going to dive deep here. Suffice to say, I feel like the cubs as an organization are a team that got good faster than they probably should have. For example, if they hadn't been so good in 15/16 and we just had 17 and now this year you'd be talking about a group of young guys on the cusp of getting over who'd just went to the NLCS the prior year. Given the respective age of the team i think fans would be encouraged. Where that differs now is people assumed because they won a world series at like 23-24 for most of these guys that it meant they'd win something like like 3 of the next 5 or something.

And the thing is that they've had to replace parts of that 15/16 group. Cogs was a big player for them those 2 years as an older vet as was montero and fowler. Honestly, if there is blame the last 2 years it seems to me it's not Maddon it's on the front office. Chatwood did not help matters. Darvish should have but I personally think he was hurt even before he went to the DL. Either way, that signing hasn't worked out so far. Morrow gave them half a season. Wilson and Avila have not been worth Candelario and Paredes. Chapman cost them a rookie who hit .271/.340/.480 with 24 HRs this year. Maybe you argue they had to have him to win(i disagree but w/e) but even if they did the yankees got him for peanuts early in the year. Heyward has been an adventure.

I would likely defend the front office but those moves not providing the impact they were designed to had just as much impact as anything joe has done to cost this team games.

 

[Parade_Rain]

I'm not entirely sure it's fair to put it all on the coaching after one year. I mean it's not always fair when guys like that get fired but look at the progress Baez made. Look at how Heyward looks more like a MLB hitter again. I'd also argue Schwarber was better but not quite where he needs to be yet. For me anyways, it just comes down to young players playing poorly in high leverage situations. I'm not sure if that's statistically a normal thing for young guys but it wouldn't surprise me if it was.

If nothing else, this season will show guys they can't just breeze through the offseason. They have work to do. Say what you will about the struggles Heyward had but the guy put in the work.

Heyward would be the one success story of taking a player who had been trying to change who he was at the plate for the club and then the new instructor comes in and wants him to go back to being his old self when he broke into the league. Duh. That's the idea. Too many other guys struggled and lost some pop. What progress did Baez make that he wasn't already making? I'd strongly consider a staff change and if I'm Theo, I'm adding players this off-season who actually have the DNA of hitting the ball and not striking out so much already. This team surely had to lead the NL in games scoring 1 or less runs. We're talking over 30 games.

 

[beckdawg]

Heyward would be the one success story of taking a player who had been trying to change who he was at the plate for the club and then the new instructor comes in and wants him to go back to being his old self when he broke into the league. Duh. That's the idea. Too many other guys struggled and lost some pop. What progress did Baez make that he wasn't already making? I'd strongly consider a staff change and if I'm Theo, I'm adding players this off-season who actually have the DNA of hitting the ball and not striking out so much already. This team surely had to lead the NL in games scoring 1 or less runs. We're talking over 30 games.

I guess I just don't believe the hitting coach makes that much difference over 1 year. I think the issue is more the minor league development. Seems to me they focused a lot on power early in the front office's tenure and not enough on contact. Now they are seemingly trying to fix some of the K issues and it's costing them power. But doing it now at the MLB level isn't ever going to be pretty stat wise and it's not going to be easy.

 

[chibears55]

See this is where we'll have to disagree. To me this is all normal expectation for young players. I really feel like Bryant has skewed public opinion on how young players should perform. We've already hashed that out else where so I'm not going to dive deep here. Suffice to say, I feel like the cubs as an organization are a team that got good faster than they probably should have. For example, if they hadn't been so good in 15/16 and we just had 17 and now this year you'd be talking about a group of young guys on the cusp of getting over who'd just went to the NLCS the prior year. Given the respective age of the team i think fans would be encouraged. Where that differs now is people assumed because they won a world series at like 23-24 for most of these guys that it meant they'd win something like like 3 of the next 5 or something.

And the thing is that they've had to replace parts of that 15/16 group. Cogs was a big player for them those 2 years as an older vet as was montero and fowler. Honestly, if there is blame the last 2 years it seems to me it's not Maddon it's on the front office. Chatwood did not help matters. Darvish should have but I personally think he was hurt even before he went to the DL. Either way, that signing hasn't worked out so far. Morrow gave them half a season. Wilson and Avila have not been worth Candelario and Paredes. Chapman cost them a rookie who hit .271/.340/.480 with 24 HRs this year. Maybe you argue they had to have him to win(i disagree but w/e) but even if they did the yankees got him for peanuts early in the year. Heyward has been an adventure.

I would likely defend the front office but those moves not providing the impact they were designed to had just as much impact as anything joe has done to cost this team games.

I do agree that the FO could have done better the past offseason