Kenny Williams wants to Fire Ozzie

[Captain Iago]

Instead of letting Anderson get the at bats he needs to develop he insists on playing Rob Mackowiak, Erstad and Wise. Used Swisher as a lead off man, his over use of Mark Kotsay (and batting him 5th!!!!!).

Shall I go on?

I would have gone with 3rd for your argument, but that's just me.

 

[BigP50]

does anyone even think that Ozzie will be fired in the near future?

 

[Undisputed]

Instead of letting Anderson get the at bats he needs to develop he insists on playing Rob Mackowiak, Erstad and Wise. Used Swisher as a lead off man, his over use of Mark Kotsay (and batting him 5th!!!!!).

Shall I go on?

When your team is underachieving, you have to change things up to try to find a winning formula.

Well actually this team is looking that good right now

we'll see what happens......................

We must be doing so good now because Ozzie suddenly became a good manager again! :rofl:

 

[nickofypres]

I would have gone with 3rd for your argument, but that's just me.

Shit I forgot about that.

Fucking Ozzie.

 

[BigP50]

When your team is underachieving, you have to change things up to try to find a winning formula.



We must be doing so good now because Ozzie suddenly became a good manager again! :rofl:

I never really blame managers, really in any sport. In the end its the players who cost games and that was fairly obvious during the first 2 months.

 

[Lefty]

How does Ozzie cost us games?

Well, as measured by his team's Equivalent Ground Advancement Runs (EqGAR, basically the number of runs contributed via bunting and similar ball-in-play one-run strategies), Ozzie has cost this team about 5 runs since 2005. That may not seem like much, but that's just one facet of the game the manager is presumed to have direct control over, add in another area like stolen bases, and Ozzie's total runs cost (just in those two areas) since 2005 jumps to about 30 runs, or roughly 3 wins since 2005.

Again, that may not seem like much, but it is 3 whole wins in a relatively short period of time, and we're only looking at bunting and stealing here. It's no secret that Ozzie has a penchant for making bad bullpen decisions (outside of 2005, but more on that later) and otherwise sticking with decidedly inferior ballplayers longer than he should (off the top of my head, you have Jerry Owens, Rob Mackowiak, Darin Erstad, Bartolo Colon, Jose Contreras, Randy Williams, DeWayne Wise and Mark Kotsay, to name just a few).

Now, studies have shown that nearly every manager in the major leagues uses such antiquated 1-run strategies as bunting far too often, and that overuse manifests in the form of lost runs and wins. That being said, just because "everyone else does it" is no reason to give Ozzie a pass for signaling for bunts in stupid situations (for instance, you should never, EVER bunt with a runner on first and nobody out, no matter what the inning, the score, who's batting, etc.) and the like.

Explain this in detail, and please make sense.

I'll only stay on a few conditions...

And what do you mean "he continues to"? We're on a 10 game winning streak.

If you are only willing to use team wins as a measure of what Ozzie has done versus what he should have or could have done, then I highly doubt you will be able to understand anything I have said or am about to say, but I'll try. And for what it's worth, Ozzie has already cost this team about 2 runs through his bunting and stolen base usage alone, as measured by EqGAR and EqSBR.

The White Sox just haven't had consistent pitching

And up until this recent stretch they've had a piss-poor offense, to deny this or gloss over it is laughable.

and you will not have good baseball teams if the offense depends on the home-runs(as it has been since '05).

Really? Then how in the hell do you explain 2005? (I know how you are going to explain it, so just save me the trouble and don't even try, I'll get to that stupid notion in a minute). Or how about 2006, when you still had a damn good ballclub that was in the hunt for most of the season? Or how about 2008, when they made the playoffs again?

We've been having guys on the roster that are terrible for playing "Ozzie Ball."

That's because "Ozzie Ball" is laughably stupid.

It's more on Kenny Williams(not saying he should be fired) for not giving Ozzie teams he can't win with.

But didn't KW give Ozzie a team "he could win with" in 2005? How about in 2008?

Ozzie deserves the respect and loyality of fans.

No he doesn't, he's a buffoon that got lucky with can't-miss pitching both in the rotation and in the bullpen for one year, and outside of an absolute gift of a playoff appearance in 2008, has done nothing but mis-manage and continually turn in sub-par performances.

Who the hell was the last manager before Ozzie to win a World Series in Chicago?

It doesn't matter who the last one was, because the most recent one was not won because of Ozzie and his doings in any capacity. The team won because they could mash the ball out of the ballpark more than once per game and then rely on their airtight starting pitching and bullpen help for the win. Ozzie would have had to try to miss a starter or reliever having a career year (or close to it) that season.

I know a "stolen bases" retort is sure to follow, so let me say this now: the Sox did steal a lot of bases in '05, but they also got caught a TON, and as a result ended up costing themselves runs throughout the course of the season.

As for the miraculous playoff run: it's just another bullet-point in the "playoffs in baseball are heavily dependent on luck" brief. John Garland, Cliff Politte, Orlando Hernandez and Neal Cotts were absolutely dominant out of the pen during that run, and there is no way anyone got that from those players by any way other than blind luck.

It was a great season, don't get me wrong, but to credit Ozzie and some antiquated-at-best strategy for that season is completely preposterous, and really belies your knowledge of the game rather than others' lack of knowledge.

 

[BigP50]

wow, very detailed.

 

[Lefty]

And very right, let's not forget that.

 

[BigP50]

I didnt read it but sure!

 

[Lefty]

No surprise there.

 

[BigP50]

:lmao:

 

[Lefty]

Here we go, Undisputed did his research and he's back for more. This should be good..............

 

[Undisputed]

Well, as measured by his team's Equivalent Ground Advancement Runs (EqGAR, basically the number of runs contributed via bunting and similar ball-in-play one-run strategies), Ozzie has cost this team about 5 runs since 2005. That may not seem like much, but that's just one facet of the game the manager is presumed to have direct control over, add in another area like stolen bases, and Ozzie's total runs cost (just in those two areas) since 2005 jumps to about 30 runs, or roughly 3 wins since 2005.

Again, that may not seem like much, but it is 3 whole wins in a relatively short period of time, and we're only looking at bunting and stealing here. It's no secret that Ozzie has a penchant for making bad bullpen decisions (outside of 2005, but more on that later) and otherwise sticking with decidedly inferior ballplayers longer than he should (off the top of my head, you have Jerry Owens, Rob Mackowiak, Darin Erstad, Bartolo Colon, Jose Contreras, Randy Williams, DeWayne Wise and Mark Kotsay, to name just a few).

Now, studies have shown that nearly every manager in the major leagues uses such antiquated 1-run strategies as bunting far too often, and that overuse manifests in the form of lost runs and wins. That being said, just because "everyone else does it" is no reason to give Ozzie a pass for signaling for bunts in stupid situations (for instance, you should never, EVER bunt with a runner on first and nobody out, no matter what the inning, the score, who's batting, etc.) and the like.



I'll only stay on a few conditions...



If you are only willing to use team wins as a measure of what Ozzie has done versus what he should have or could have done, then I highly doubt you will be able to understand anything I have said or am about to say, but I'll try. And for what it's worth, Ozzie has already cost this team about 2 runs through his bunting and stolen base usage alone, as measured by EqGAR and EqSBR.



And up until this recent stretch they've had a piss-poor offense, to deny this or gloss over it is laughable.



Really? Then how in the hell do you explain 2005? (I know how you are going to explain it, so just save me the trouble and don't even try, I'll get to that stupid notion in a minute). Or how about 2006, when you still had a damn good ballclub that was in the hunt for most of the season? Or how about 2008, when they made the playoffs again?



That's because "Ozzie Ball" is laughably stupid.



But didn't KW give Ozzie a team "he could win with" in 2005? How about in 2008?



No he doesn't, he's a buffoon that got lucky with can't-miss pitching both in the rotation and in the bullpen for one year, and outside of an absolute gift of a playoff appearance in 2008, has done nothing but mis-manage and continually turn in sub-par performances.



It doesn't matter who the last one was, because the most recent one was not won because of Ozzie and his doings in any capacity. The team won because they could mash the ball out of the ballpark more than once per game and then rely on their airtight starting pitching and bullpen help for the win. Ozzie would have had to try to miss a starter or reliever having a career year (or close to it) that season.

I know a "stolen bases" retort is sure to follow, so let me say this now: the Sox did steal a lot of bases in '05, but they also got caught a TON, and as a result ended up costing themselves runs throughout the course of the season.

As for the miraculous playoff run: it's just another bullet-point in the "playoffs in baseball are heavily dependent on luck" brief. John Garland, Cliff Politte, Orlando Hernandez and Neal Cotts were absolutely dominant out of the pen during that run, and there is no way anyone got that from those players by any way other than blind luck.

It was a great season, don't get me wrong, but to credit Ozzie and some antiquated-at-best strategy for that season is completely preposterous, and really belies your knowledge of the game rather than others' lack of knowledge.

So basically you're saying Ozzie is an excellent manager, right? :clap:

/sarcasm. Don't have the time or motivation to even reply to this monstrousity. Lol.

 

[nickofypres]

:suicide:

 

[Lefty]

So basically you're saying Ozzie is an excellent manager, right? :clap:

/sarcasm. Don't have the time or motivation to even reply to this monstrousity. Lol.

Don't even try. There is no argument you can make, outside of one completely based on bullshit notions like "the passion and fire" and the like, that would even come close to being acceptable. Ozzie is a bad manager any way you slice it (even in the things most managers do that cost their teams runs, Ozzie seems to be consistently in the running for "worst of the worst", and this says nothing over his tendency to play favorites and mis-manage situations and personnel), and he's still riding high (it would seem) from a dubious run of luck in 2005 that had absolutely nothing to do with his managerial qualities.

 

[Undisputed]

Don't even try. There is no argument you can make, outside of one completely based on bullshit notions like "the passion and fire" and the like, that would even come close to being acceptable. Ozzie is a bad manager any way you slice it (even in the things most managers do that cost their teams runs, Ozzie seems to be consistently in the running for "worst of the worst", and this says nothing over his tendency to play favorites and mis-manage situations and personnel), and he's still riding high (it would seem) from a dubious run of luck in 2005 that had absolutely nothing to do with his managerial qualities.

I shouldn't try because you and I are different kinds of baseball fans. You can call me the "passion and fire" fan actually, as opposed to the stat geeks or student of the game. I watch baseball for entertainment, but I won't act like I'm some kind of baseball wiz here. I'm more of a basketball guy. I love the White Sox, I go to games, and I treasure '05 and pretty much Ozzie's entire tenure with the White Sox. Why? Because this has been the most fun I have had as a White Sox fan(aside from watching the Big Hurt).

I like his antics, I like his style, and I really like that he puts faith in his players.

He has done great things for the White Sox franchise. That's why I feel he deserves some loyality from White Sox fans and the organization. A World Series for Chicago baseball is huge. Call it luck or whatever you want, he got the job done as a manager. The offense and defensive struggles throughout the years had a lot to do with players being hurt or underachieving. A manager only looks as good as the roster and how the team executes. You can use whatever science and studies to tell you how many runs he costs us, but there's players that he has to use out there not getting their job done also.

I think if you sat there and judged every manager the way you do, you can probably prove them all bad.

 

[Undisputed]

Here we go, Undisputed did his research and he's back for more. This should be good..............

What an elitist douchebag. You were looking at my status to see when I'm about to post a reply? hahaha! I even see you visited my profile to see. Pathetic. Arguing online must mean so much to you. :smh: You must be a killer with the ladies.

 

[Lefty]

I shouldn't try because you and I are different kinds of baseball fans. You can call me the "passion and fire" fan actually, as opposed to the stat geeks or student of the game. I watch baseball for entertainment, but I won't act like I'm some kind of baseball wiz here. I'm more of a basketball guy. I love the White Sox, I go to games, and I treasure '05 and pretty much Ozzie's entire tenure with the White Sox. Why? Because this has been the most fun I have had as a White Sox fan(aside from watching the Big Hurt).

I like his antics, I like his style, and I really like that he puts faith in his players.

He has done great things for the White Sox franchise. That's why I feel he deserves some loyality from White Sox fans and the organization. A World Series for Chicago baseball is huge. Call it luck or whatever you want, he got the job done as a manager. The offense and defensive struggles throughout the years had a lot to do with players being hurt or underachieving. A manager only looks as good as the roster and how the team executes. You can use whatever science and studies to tell you how many runs he costs us, but there's players that he has to use out there not getting their job done also.

I think if you sat there and judged every manager the way you do, you can probably prove them all bad.

No, you see, he hasn't gotten the job done as manager, at least in the areas the manager is presumed to have direct control over (bunting, stealing and bullpen use, we haven't even talked yet about his piss-poor lineup construction). In those areas, he has actually cost his team runs, and like I said earlier, the "well everyone else does it" excuse isn't going to fly.

What you are crediting him for is for luckily stumbling onto one of the greatest pitching performances by a team in the history of the MLB, and AGAIN stumbling upon a historic playoff pitching run by guys that "never had a prime" and would soon be out of the league.

He didn't do anything, save for maybe not screw up and miss the guys having career years in the bullpen (though that would have been impossible: even Dustin Hermanson's back held together long enough to save Ozzie's ass).

What an elitist douchebag. You were looking at my status to see when I'm about to post a reply? hahaha! I even see you visited my profile to see. Pathetic. Arguing online must mean so much to you. :smh: You must be a killer with the ladies.

Just ensuring you post and stay active because, if you haven't noticed it, this site could use more active members. And if I have to antagonize you a bit to get that done, so be it.

 

[Got teeth? Keith doesn't.]

lol @ anyone actually standing up for Ozzie. He's a dunce.

 

[Undisputed]

No, you see, he hasn't gotten the job done as manager, at least in the areas the manager is presumed to have direct control over (bunting, stealing and bullpen use, we haven't even talked yet about his piss-poor lineup construction). In those areas, he has actually cost his team runs, and like I said earlier, the "well everyone else does it" excuse isn't going to fly.

What you are crediting him for is for luckily stumbling onto one of the greatest pitching performances by a team in the history of the MLB, and AGAIN stumbling upon a historic playoff pitching run by guys that "never had a prime" and would soon be out of the league.

He didn't do anything, save for maybe not screw up and miss the guys having career years in the bullpen (though that would have been impossible: even Dustin Hermanson's back held together long enough to save Ozzie's ass).

If it was lucky, then I want that kind of luck around. I don't remember any other managers around Chicago getting lucky enough to win a World Series, so what the hell. :woot:

Just ensuring you post and stay active because, if you haven't noticed it, this site could use more active members. And if I have to antagonize you a bit to get that done, so be it.

I'm sure that's what you were doing. What a caring fella'.