Kirk to be traded

[charity stripe]

houheffna wrote:

I don't feel any pain at all, probably because thats not the truth. Did you forget the game winning assist Gordon got on a pass to Tyson Chandler in his rookie season? Or how the passes he made in crunch time to Darius Songaila and Eric Piatkowski? Or how about when he gave the ball up to Derrick Rose on potential game winning possessions or crucial plays against Miami, Minnesota, Utah, Cleveland, Dallas, Washington, and other teams? All those situations would prove that he is not allergic to passing the ball in crunch time.

My fault I am not familiar with Ben "Magic" Gordon. Must be another guy, look, if you analyze the Bulls backcourt as is, and you don't think there is some improvement needed defensively at the SG and the PG and that more size is needed...I question your ability to analyze. I showed everybody the Scottie quote, talked about what Barkley, Stacey King, Kendell Gill and others have said in response to this situation. We need more size and a stronger defensive presencein the backcourt. For now, I think Salmons should be considered and would make a good SG.

I gave the examples of smallish SGs on championship teams. Only 2 that I can remember, going back 25 years. So I am just saying that he would be fine coming off the bench. Gordon is a good scorer, we need a good basketball player at the SG slot

Stop changing your argument to fit your hatred. You said Gordon is allergic to passing the ball, I gave you several examples of where he passed the ball in crunch time, proving that he is not allergic to passing the ball.

The Bulls problem has been offense and defense in the frontcourt. Gordon's defense has not been a problem or a liability. He had the best PER differential on the team this season. Gordon started half the season and 2 rounds of the playoffs when the Bulls were the best defensive team in the league, so his defense did not hurt the team obviously. The Bulls lost to the Pistons because of Ben Wallace and PJ Brown clanking shots and missing layups. The Bulls had nothing to offer in the frontcourt.

John Salmons has spent 72% of his career at SF, not SG. That means all the coaches he has played for felt Salmons is better at SF. He does not possess much lateral quickness and would have trouble staying in front of most SGs.

So what if there's only 2 examples for small backcourts on championship teams? What does that prove exactly? There's only 1-2 examples of a normal size point guard winning a championship as the best player on his team in the last 25 years, Isiah and Tony Parker. Dwyane Wade won a title in his 3rd year, he was not a good defensive player then, and guess what, he was undersized. Vernon Maxwell was undersized and still started and helped his team win 2 titles. Ben Gordon is better than Vernon Maxwell ever was. Derek Fisher started on 3 title teams, he was never a good defender. The only good thing he did was flop. Ben Gordon is better than Derek Fisher. John Paxson started on 2 title teams, and he was not a good defender. Ben Gordon is better than John Paxson. There's 1 example of a scrub starting at PF/C, Kurt Rambis for the Lakers. There's an example of just about every format, so there's not one particular way you have to follow. You need talent to win titles.

 

[iltdi]

If Kirk is going to be traded, how come no one is mentioning Golden State? They want to move Monta to SG, and Don Nelson likes vets more than rookies and they were going to trade for Kirk last year. So what do people think?

 

[houheffna]

Stop changing your argument to fit your hatred. You said Gordon is allergic to passing the ball, I gave you several examples of where he passed the ball in crunch time, proving that he is not allergic to passing the ball.

The Bulls problem has been offense and defense in the frontcourt. Gordon's defense has not been a problem or a liability. He had the best PER differential on the team this season. Gordon started half the season and 2 rounds of the playoffs when the Bulls were the best defensive team in the league, so his defense did not hurt the team obviously. The Bulls lost to the Pistons because of Ben Wallace and PJ Brown clanking shots and missing layups. The Bulls had nothing to offer in the frontcourt.

John Salmons has spent 72% of his career at SF, not SG. That means all the coaches he has played for felt Salmons is better at SF. He does not possess much lateral quickness and would have trouble staying in front of most SGs.

So what if there's only 2 examples for small backcourts on championship teams? What does that prove exactly? There's only 1-2 examples of a normal size point guard winning a championship as the best player on his team in the last 25 years, Isiah and Tony Parker. Dwyane Wade won a title in his 3rd year, he was not a good defensive player then, and guess what, he was undersized. Vernon Maxwell was undersized and still started and helped his team win 2 titles. Ben Gordon is better than Vernon Maxwell ever was. Derek Fisher started on 3 title teams, he was never a good defender. The only good thing he did was flop. Ben Gordon is better than Derek Fisher. John Paxson started on 2 title teams, and he was not a good defender. Ben Gordon is better than John Paxson. There's 1 example of a scrub starting at PF/C, Kurt Rambis for the Lakers. There's an example of just about every format, so there's not one particular way you have to follow. You need talent to win titles.

DAMN, DAMN, DAMN!!! Let me help you, if you have to give examples of him passing, more than likely...he don't pass. No one says that about other players who are unselfish with the ball. If you think Gordon's defense is not a liability, you don't know what good defense is. You are bringing up a pass to Darius Songalia? You cannot be serious. Once again, Stacey King has shown many times where Ben Gordon would not make the fundamental play and pass the ball. And called him selfish...he showed the film, over and over and over. When Del Negro speaks of moving the ball on offense, he is talking about certain players on the team in particular.

Maxwell and Wade are two or three inches taller than Gordon, that makes a difference. Who the hell told you Maxwell was undersized, he was a 6'4" and played the point! Salmons has played at the SF because of Allen Iverson and Kevin Martin were playing the SG position. Those are better players than BG. You are comparing Gordon to Wade, bad mistake. Wade is a combo guard, he can and has played point in the past, plus he dominates the ball anyway. Wade and Gordon are not in the same galaxy so that shouldn't be brought up. Paxson was in the backcourt with.....never mind....like Scottie Pippen said, "you can't have midgets running your backcourt".

 

[Diddy1122]

I'll admit BG is not a great defender, but he's not horrible either. He relies too much on his upper body strength to stay in front of players as opposed to using his quickness with better footwork. Could he use improvement? Sure but he's not Steve Nash bad, let's be real here. The problem with the Bulls is FRONTcourt defense like CharityStripe said. In 06-07 Wallace & Brown's post defense & rebounding is what helped propel us to a 49 win season & the first playoff series win since the Jordan era. And BG was playing next to the greatest defender of all-time, Kirk Hinrich. This yr he had Rose, who is Steve Nash bad on D.

I'm not even going to argue the whole "selfish" thing because it's been done to death and everything proves it to be false. And if you are listening to Stacey King & Neil Funk for your expert analysis, I pray for you.

 

[houheffna]

I'm not even going to argue the whole "selfish" thing because it's been done to death and everything proves it to be false. And if you are listening to Stacey King & Neil Funk for your expert analysis, I pray for you.

Pray tell who do you listen to? Let me guess, he post on this site. Anyway, it has not been proven wrong, you ask many Bulls fans and they feel the same way. I hate when people say BG is not a great defender, he is not a great anything, he is not a good defender, he is not a mediocre defender, he is below average defensively, period. He does not fight through screens routinely, he cannot keep a guard of average speed in front of him...he should be on the bench.

So you know more than Stacey King, Kendell Gill, Charles Barkley, Scottie Pippen, when it comes to basketball and how to win. King and Pippen have 9 rings between them, their opinions should be respected. Barkley and Pippen are HOFers. These people give their opinions and because they don't agree with you...discount them? I am not the one who needs pray here....

 

[Diddy1122]

houheffna wrote:

I'm not even going to argue the whole "selfish" thing because it's been done to death and everything proves it to be false. And if you are listening to Stacey King & Neil Funk for your expert analysis, I pray for you.

Pray tell who do you listen to? Let me guess, he post on this site. Anyway, it has not been proven wrong, you ask many Bulls fans and they feel the same way. I hate when people say BG is not a great defender, he is not a great anything, he is not a good defender, he is not a mediocre defender, he is below average defensively, period. He does not fight through screens routinely, he cannot keep a guard of average speed in front of him...he should be on the bench.

So you know more than Stacey King, Kendell Gill, Charles Barkley, Scottie Pippen, when it comes to basketball and how to win. King and Pippen have 9 rings between them, their opinions should be respected. Barkley and Pippen are HOFers. These people give their opinions and because they don't agree with you...discount them? I am not the one who needs pray here....

Yea I agree with everything Doug ever writes. Sure. If you ever read any of my posts you'd know I disagree with him more often than not. And your first mistake is saying Bulls fans feel the same way. I'm assuming you've talked to ever fan across the country. The Trib did a survey after Game 7 on whether or not Bulls fans wanted BG back or not. Well 60% of those who voted wanted him back. And it's a decent assumption that close to 50% of those who voted were casual fans, not die-hards. Die hard fans like myself and many others on this site realize the importance of Ben not only to this team but to the league in general.

Honestly the media coverage of Ben Gordon in this city is an absolute joke. King & Funk are just plain awful. When BG has a good game, he rarely ever gets praise. The guy played on 1 friggin' leg for cryn' out loud, & stupid fans are calling him out for not hitting shots! You gotta be kiddin me! You'll hear King & Funk waxing poetic about Hinrich's amazing D & toughness, but do they ever slam him for constantly choking on every big shot, or being the quintessential fast-break killer, or getting torched by smaller guards on a nightly basis? No. But BG makes a bad decision & they jump right on him. "Oh my he's so selfish, why would he not pass there? Why would he shoot that shot?"

I never understood the media hatred of Ben Gordon. This kid got us to the playoffs in his rookie season. He single handedly won 10+ games with his 4th qtr performances alone. He's led the team in scoring 4 of his 5 seasons here. He's hit clutch shot after clutch shot. And he's handled himself with the utmost professionalism & maturity while people question his skills, effort, & character. And the fact that he even says he still wants to stay a Bull for his career speaks volumes to the type of person he is. All these "fans" you're talking about are gonna be in for a real surprise when Gordon leaves and we suck next year.

 

[houheffna]

First I never said all Bulls fans, I said many. Don't put words in my mouth to prove your point. I am going to make this simple...

I DONT THINK GORDON IS A VIABLE OPTION AS A STARTING 2 GUARD.

He can come off the bench. Rose has to have a backcourt mate with him that can play some good defense. And they need size in the backcourt. Historic trends show that defense wins championships and undersized backcourts don't. Ask Scottie

 

[badboy]

I agree with Hou in this thread Gordon could end up being the greatest 6th man of all time and make the Hall by coming off the bench and could be just another starting SG that can score and doesn't play good D in the league that wins nothing of importance and thats just kinda dumbing things down. A lot people are really tied into stats and forget to use their eyes and what they see in games. BG is a ball hog and always has been.

Hou dial back on the attitude man that doesn't help u either. Also please for the love of God take Barkley out of your argument. The man had one talent in life(aside from making an ass of one's self) and that was to play basketball if their is anything you can look at as a certified dumb ass it is Barkley. He knows nothing else he can't analyze basketball he probably can't add 2 plus 2 but he could damn well play basketball.

 

[houheffna]

I couldn't disagree more about Barkley, he is actually one of the more intelligent players, he just says things in a more simplistic way, but he always makes sense. And he knows basketball, he is not some dumb jock like you are putting him out there to be. Can Jordan add 2+2? Then Barkley can because he is just as intelligent, just more blunt and out front with his statements. I think we have to be careful not to label candor as stupidity....