Kirk to be traded

[??? ??????]

charity stripe wrote:

houheffna wrote:

That's true of every player. Michael Jordan, the greatest clutch performer of all time, was 25 of 51 on game winners. That means he failed more than he came through too.

Here are game winning shot stats (they're a little outdated, as Gordon's hit two more since their last update, and I don't believe he's missed many).

Gordon comes through a higher percentage of the time in the clutch than Lebron James, Kobe Bryant, and Dwyane Wade.

This is where stats get you in trouble....you have Kobe and Gordon on your team, final seconds, you give Gordon the ball? You would be fired before the game is over.

Not really. The bulls in the 1997 finals drew up a play for Steve Kerr. Jordan was the decoy. Nobody got fired, and everybody said it was a great strategy.

Exactly. Lets take a trip down Phil Jackson memory lane.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZClfsq7B00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yjeBPPIp_8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2BlOTeoZVE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRCTp57LQro

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xp19op8uK1E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rmo4uFggxbE

Those are the most famous game winners under Phil Jackson. How many of them were of Jordan, Pippen, Shaq, and Kobe?

 

[RC_Skinny22]

Take the playoffs as an example for our frontcourt strenght:

---- G1, G2, G3, G4, G5, G6, G7
DR: 36, 10, 09, 23, 14, 28, 18
BG: 20, 42, 15, 22, 26, 12, 33
JS:- 12, 17, 14, 20, 17, 35, 12
Cmb:68, 69, 38, 65, 57, 75, 63

And Kirk with:
KH: 03, 07, 14, 18, 19, 11, 16
was not too bad either.

That means our 3 frontcourt players had an average of combined 62 points per game. And that´s what I like about our team. Even if one of them has a bad shooting night you can be sure that one other normaly has a 20 point game. So imagine you replace Gordon for a player who prefers to pass and who is not very dangerous. As the defense you can concentrate on the one or two players who are dangerous and take them out of the game with much pressure. And think about injuries. It´s not about having a great starting 5 and your bench players don´t know how to catch a ball.

In the Bulls games I saw last season I could see that the teams we played against made many points in the paint. With a good backcourt we should be able to stop that.

Now get a good backcourt player and you can make the conference finals!

I would not touch the frontcourt players for trades. Just my opinion.

(cool007 +1)

 

[cool007]

Bullseye wrote:

Take the playoffs as an example for our frontcourt strenght:

---- G1, G2, G3, G4, G5, G6, G7
DR: 36, 10, 09, 23, 14, 28, 18
BG: 20, 42, 15, 22, 26, 12, 33
JS:- 12, 17, 14, 20, 17, 35, 12
Cmb:68, 69, 38, 65, 57, 75, 63

And Kirk with:
KH: 03, 07, 14, 18, 19, 11, 16
was not too bad either.

That means our 3 frontcourt players had an average of combined 62 points per game. And that´s what I like about our team. Even if one of them has a bad shooting night you can be sure that one other normaly has a 20 point game. So imagine you replace Gordon for a player who prefers to pass and who is not very dangerous. As the defense you can concentrate on the one or two players who are dangerous and take them out of the game with much pressure. And think about injuries. It´s not about having a great starting 5 and your bench players don´t know how to catch a ball.

In the Bulls games I saw last season I could see that the teams we played against made many points in the paint. With a good backcourt we should be able to stop that.

Now get a good backcourt player and you can make the conference finals!

I would not touch the frontcourt players for trades. Just my opinion.

(cool007 +1)

I think you got it mixed with the frontcourt and backcourt players.

BG/Salmons/Hinrich/Rose are BACKCOURT players and NOT the frontcourt players.

Yes, I think we have a problem up front and if we have a CONSISTENT scoring from the frontcourt than this team can go places.

This is why I am really hoping and praying for Amare or Bosh in Bulls uni. or atleast bring in shaq and see how Rose/Gordon blossoms.

 

[??? ??????]

FWIW

Backcourt = Point Guard and Shooting Guard

Front Court = Small Forward, Power Forward, and Center

Although personally, I like the divide of Bigs (Power Forward and Center) and Smalls (Point Guard, Shooting Guard, Small Forward) better.

 

[RC_Skinny22]

Uuuuups. :laugh:

Yeah you´re right. I don´t know why i mixed it. How embarrassing. :blush:

 

[cool007]

Bullseye wrote:

Uuuuups. :laugh:

Yeah you´re right. I don´t know why i mixed it. How embarrassing. :blush:

No worries, it happens a lot with a lot of people.

But I do agree with what you said. We need that inside player who can score 15+ a game CONSISTENTLY to take pressure off of the backcourt and IMO, if we had a player like that, it woudl just open up Gordon and Rose's game BIG TIME.

Their efficiency would go off the roof and that makes Bulls chances of winning that much higher.

This is why if we can't get Bosh or Amare by end of August or so, I would go after Shaq and check the team for 1 year and see how well we play with a frontcourt player that demands double team.

 

[houheffna]

Gordon doesn't "jack up shots". There is not a player in the league who scored more points on less shots this past year if I'm not mistaken.

It would seem like he's getting an awful lot out of the shots he takes on the whole.

I believe other players were more efficient as far as points per attempt. If you don't believe Gordon jacks up shots, you must have just seen the highlights of Game 7 against Boston.

 

[??? ??????]

houheffna wrote:

Gordon doesn't "jack up shots". There is not a player in the league who scored more points on less shots this past year if I'm not mistaken.

It would seem like he's getting an awful lot out of the shots he takes on the whole.

I believe other players were more efficient as far as points per attempt. If you don't believe Gordon jacks up shots, you must have just seen the highlights of Game 7 against Boston.

Ben had a 55.7 TS% in that game. That's not bad.

He also was playing on a torn hamstring. I'm sure that hampered his play plenty.

 

[houheffna]

Those are the most famous game winners under Phil Jackson. How many of them were of Jordan, Pippen, Shaq, and Kobe?

Horry's shot was on a deflection. Kukoc was always a better clutch player than Pippen, Pip got upset and didn't play so Phil had no choice. Kerr's shot was because Jordan PASSED THE BALL!!! Gordon is allergic to passing the ball, especially in those moments. Jordan was given the right to make a play or pass at his discretion. Phil does that with Kobe too, knowing that Kobe can hit a big shot OR MAKE THE KEY PASS!!!

That said, if we are comparing Gordon to Kobe, Pippen and Jordan, we need much better players because there is no comparison there...and what do they have in common that Gordon doesn't have....size and defense, Gordon cannot grow, but he damn sure could have been better defensively. It just isn't there.

My point is he should not start. No one can name an undersized backcourt that has won championships in the last 30 years, there were two...Thomas/Dumars and Cheeks/Toney. All four of those players are better than Gordon, easily. Rose can be better than all 4, Gordon is not going to get much better. So he should come off the bench, that is my point. I never said run him out of town, he is expendable, but I did not summarily dismiss him at all. I reiterate: Salmons starts, Gordon off the bench

 

[Diddy1122]

houheffna wrote:

Gordon doesn't "jack up shots". There is not a player in the league who scored more points on less shots this past year if I'm not mistaken.

It would seem like he's getting an awful lot out of the shots he takes on the whole.

I believe other players were more efficient as far as points per attempt. If you don't believe Gordon jacks up shots, you must have just seen the highlights of Game 7 against Boston.

He's right though. Of the 20ppg scorers in the league, only 3 took less shots to get their points (Howard, Pierce, & Harris) and those 3 shot twice as many FT's per game than BG. BG doesn't just "jack up shots". That's a cliched drone response. And no, there weren't any more efficient players on the team. BG lead the team in PER this season, that pretty much says it all.

 

[houheffna]

He's right though. Of the 20ppg scorers in the league, only 3 took less shots to get their points (Howard, Pierce, & Harris) and those 3 shot twice as many FT's per game than BG. BG doesn't just "jack up shots". That's a cliched drone response. And no, there weren't any more efficient players on the team. BG lead the team in PER this season, that pretty much says it all.

What is this...a cult? Do you all know who once led the league in points per field goal attempts? Eddy Curry with the Knicks...I ask that people watch the games and not use stats alone. John Salmons had a higher PPA rating than Gordon while with the Bulls and for the whole season so what is your point? One of the things you want from a SG is the ability to slash to the basket and draw fouls. Be productive when the play breaks down. So dont talk FT like its nothing. That is a very important part of the game. Iverson did it for years. Leading the team in PER is not an indication of the caliber player he is...period.

So analyze what is being written before you see Doug's name and mindlessly genuflect.

 

[Diddy1122]

houheffna wrote:

He's right though. Of the 20ppg scorers in the league, only 3 took less shots to get their points (Howard, Pierce, & Harris) and those 3 shot twice as many FT's per game than BG. BG doesn't just "jack up shots". That's a cliched drone response. And no, there weren't any more efficient players on the team. BG lead the team in PER this season, that pretty much says it all.

What is this...a cult? Do you all know who once led the league in points per field goal attempts? Eddy Curry with the Knicks...I ask that people watch the games and not use stats alone. John Salmons had a higher PPA rating than Gordon while with the Bulls and for the whole season so what is your point? One of the things you want from a SG is the ability to slash to the basket and draw fouls. Be productive when the play breaks down. So dont talk FT like its nothing. That is a very important part of the game. Iverson did it for years. Leading the team in PER is not an indication of the caliber player he is...period.

So analyze what is being written before you see Doug's name and mindlessly genuflect.

Me sorry me doubted you genius heff. Me no think so good lots of time. Me have 2nd grade edumacation. What's a genuflect?

Me likey Doug. Doug friend. You meaney heff. I needs more kool-aid.

 

[houheffna]

Me sorry me doubted you genius heff. Me no think so good lots of time. Me have 2nd grade edumacation. What's a genuflect?

Me likey Doug. Doug friend. You meaney heff. I needs more kool-aid.

Not that's funny

 

[jsain360]

houheffna wrote:

Those are the most famous game winners under Phil Jackson. How many of them were of Jordan, Pippen, Shaq, and Kobe?

Horry's shot was on a deflection. Kukoc was always a better clutch player than Pippen, Pip got upset and didn't play so Phil had no choice. Kerr's shot was because Jordan PASSED THE BALL!!! Gordon is allergic to passing the ball, especially in those moments. Jordan was given the right to make a play or pass at his discretion. Phil does that with Kobe too, knowing that Kobe can hit a big shot OR MAKE THE KEY PASS!!!

That said, if we are comparing Gordon to Kobe, Pippen and Jordan, we need much better players because there is no comparison there...and what do they have in common that Gordon doesn't have....size and defense, Gordon cannot grow, but he damn sure could have been better defensively. It just isn't there.

My point is he should not start. No one can name an undersized backcourt that has won championships in the last 30 years, there were two...Thomas/Dumars and Cheeks/Toney. All four of those players are better than Gordon, easily. Rose can be better than all 4, Gordon is not going to get much better. So he should come off the bench, that is my point. I never said run him out of town, he is expendable, but I did not summarily dismiss him at all. I reiterate: Salmons starts, Gordon off the bench

What also hurts is Ben doesn't play bigger than his size, Joe Dumars was about 6'3" and played much bigger, he was on of the best deffenders in the league, and Toney played much bigger than his frame as well, Gordon doesn't have the ability to play bigger than his frame

 

[Bullsman24]

houheffna wrote:

Kerr's shot was because Jordan PASSED THE BALL!!! Gordon is allergic to passing the ball, especially in those moments.

dude, who do you want him to pass to? kirk hinrich??? luol deng??? joakim noah??? exactly. we all saw what happened in miami when we tried giving the ball to salmons in crunch time. man, i didn't even know you could only edit someone's karma once every 6 hours before reading this post...

 

[jsain360]

bullsman24 wrote:

houheffna wrote:

Kerr's shot was because Jordan PASSED THE BALL!!! Gordon is allergic to passing the ball, especially in those moments.

dude, who do you want him to pass to? kirk hinrich??? luol deng??? joakim noah??? exactly. we all saw what happened in miami when we tried giving the ball to salmons in crunch time. man, i didn't even know you could only edit someone's karma once every 6 hours before reading this post...

Yes pass it to Dneg and Hinrich they are open, that is the right basketball play, I'm tired of seeing him force up shots with some 6'8" or 6'7" guy drapped on him or with two deffenders on him and he airballs with the game on the line, and how many times has he turned the ball over with the game on the line. Jordan and Kobe trust their teammates, Ben Gordon doesn't, and Gordon isn't good enough to be doing that

 

[B1LLIONAIREKR3W]

if ben and kirk does'nt come back then that means the bulls are going to sign free agents? or make a trade for a trade for the cap size? im pretty sure the next season the bulls will have a bad record and will be one of the worst teams in the nba. a team who wont be able to score with out ben, or use kirk off the bench to give rose some mins off. whos going to pick up all the rows in the bulls teams for the past years. i rather see tim and tyrus be traded and even the drift picks i wanna keep kirk and ben!

 

[houheffna]

dude, who do you want him to pass to? kirk hinrich??? luol deng??? joakim noah??? exactly. we all saw what happened in miami when we tried giving the ball to salmons in crunch time. man, i didn't even know you could only edit someone's karma once every 6 hours before reading this post...

Salmons one time mess warrants him never seeing the ball again? Boy, you people and your selective memory. Yes, Jordan passed the ball the Wennington, Longley, Will Perdue, whoever was open and could hit the shot. Kirk Hinrich is a better player than Kerr, so Kerr can get a pass but Hinrich can't??? And where were you at when Gordon would make some of the worst moves in the final seconds in history, like not getting a shot off at all???

Jordan and Kobe trust their teammates, Ben Gordon doesn't, and Gordon isn't good enough to be doing that

Dude, the truth hurts...

 

[charity stripe]

houheffna wrote:

Dude, the truth hurts...

I don't feel any pain at all, probably because thats not the truth. Did you forget the game winning assist Gordon got on a pass to Tyson Chandler in his rookie season? Or how the passes he made in crunch time to Darius Songaila and Eric Piatkowski? Or how about when he gave the ball up to Derrick Rose on potential game winning possessions or crucial plays against Miami, Minnesota, Utah, Cleveland, Dallas, Washington, and other teams? All those situations would prove that he is not allergic to passing the ball in crunch time.

 

[houheffna]

I don't feel any pain at all, probably because thats not the truth. Did you forget the game winning assist Gordon got on a pass to Tyson Chandler in his rookie season? Or how the passes he made in crunch time to Darius Songaila and Eric Piatkowski? Or how about when he gave the ball up to Derrick Rose on potential game winning possessions or crucial plays against Miami, Minnesota, Utah, Cleveland, Dallas, Washington, and other teams? All those situations would prove that he is not allergic to passing the ball in crunch time.

My fault I am not familiar with Ben "Magic" Gordon. Must be another guy, look, if you analyze the Bulls backcourt as is, and you don't think there is some improvement needed defensively at the SG and the PG and that more size is needed...I question your ability to analyze. I showed everybody the Scottie quote, talked about what Barkley, Stacey King, Kendell Gill and others have said in response to this situation. We need more size and a stronger defensive presencein the backcourt. For now, I think Salmons should be considered and would make a good SG.

I gave the examples of smallish SGs on championship teams. Only 2 that I can remember, going back 25 years. So I am just saying that he would be fine coming off the bench. Gordon is a good scorer, we need a good basketball player at the SG slot