Kirk to be traded

[AirP]

houheffna wrote:

Its not about the pay, its about personnel. I would rather pay more to have a better SG if I know that the SG can contribute as a starter to a championship by playing defense and moving the ball. Since I can find a dozen or so better at the position, and they are legitimate starters, those are players I would rather have.

What is it with the bargain basement mentality? I would rather pay Kevin Martin an extra $2 mil to score within the offense and give the ball to Rose. He plays no defense either but he is a more efficient scorer than Gordon. Plus he has some height and can add some defense to his game if he is inclined to.

People on this forum don't understand the importance of defense or so it seems. So what if Ben Gordon hits a crazy shot or too? You don't make a majority of dumb shots in the NBA so you are hurting your team more than helping.

Point blank, until we find a SG, we should start Salmons and let Gordon or Hinrich come off the bench.

Not quite bargain basement mentality, but paying for what you need within your offense and not spending a bunch of extra money on a player who has abilities you don't need that often. If you're going to overspend, do that on your key players and in the pick and roll for the Bulls that's the PG and PF. With Rose already on the roster, we need to really nail down the best option at PF for him.

 

[Woodz]

houheffna wrote:

Its not about the pay, its about personnel. I would rather pay more to have a better SG if I know that the SG can contribute as a starter to a championship by playing defense and moving the ball. Since I can find a dozen or so better at the position, and they are legitimate starters, those are players I would rather have.

What is it with the bargain basement mentality? I would rather pay Kevin Martin an extra $2 mil to score within the offense and give the ball to Rose. He plays no defense either but he is a more efficient scorer than Gordon. Plus he has some height and can add some defense to his game if he is inclined to.

People on this forum don't understand the importance of defense or so it seems. So what if Ben Gordon hits a crazy shot or too? You don't make a majority of dumb shots in the NBA so you are hurting your team more than helping.

Point blank, until we find a SG, we should start Salmons and let Gordon or Hinrich come off the bench.

And how do you propose that we acquire one of these top 12 SGs? I would rather have Dwight Howard than Noah. Unfortunately, so does Orlando.

News flash -Ben Gordon is not perfect-. However, virtually all of us agree that he can be a key cog on a championship team. Whether that is off the bench or starting is largely irrelevant.

Then the only issue becomes whether we have a better chance of acquiring an elite talent with or without Gordon. Given that we do not project to win the lottery for a while (hopefully) the only two methods are trade or a FA signing. Let's examine them:

FA Route- If we are able to dump Hinrich, signing Gordon most likely does not get in the way of a 2010 plan. Additionally, he makes it more likely that an elite big would want to sign here as he not only increases the overall talent level, but also is the best outside threat this team has.

Trade Route- He represents an asset that we could possibly throw into a trade, so it does not hurt us in the traditional trade route. And the FA reasoning is similar when it comes to sign and trades.

 

[??? ??????]

houheffna wrote:

AirP, my point exactly, know your role. I would like for these basketball heads on this forum to tell me how you win a championship with Gordon and Rose starting...how? And what is the precedence for guys with their skill sets.

Bullseye, the frontcourt is NOT GOOD, do not be fooled by bad basketball in the playoffs. Making the playoffs aint nothing to brag about. 16 of 30 make the playoffs, that's not an accomplishment to brag about. Combined, Portland and Utah had 41 consecutive playoff appearances and have how many championships???

Is it really hard to envision a championship team including Gordon starting?

Bulls trade Luol Deng, Tyrus Thomas, and filler for Amare Stoudemire.

Derrick Rose becomes a top 10 player, and so does Amare Stoudemire.

Joakim Noah develops into a strong defensive presence of Varejao's level. Derrick Rose ceases to be the worst defender in the league and becomes an average defender.

PG-Derrick Rose/Kirk Hinrich
SG-Ben Gordon/Kirk Hinrich
SF-John Salmons/Small Forward Veteran
PF-Amare Stoudemire/Omer Asik
C- Joakim Noah/Brad Miller

Do people think that team can't win a championship? They might not be a shoe-in to win the championship, but they'd definitely be contenders, and that's all you can really ask for when you don't have Michael Jordan on your team. Even the Lakers with Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O'neal, Gary Payton, and Karl Malone couldn't win it all.

That team has the talent to win it all. That doesn't mean they will, but that team should be able to contend.

 

[houheffna]

If Gordon and Rose are your backcourt and you dont have an all-league frontcourt, you will not win....plus that is a lot of supposition for 2010. Especially if Rose is the worst defensive player in the league, which would mean the Bulls have the worst defensive backcourt in the league, which means no championships.

Notice, you want Rose to become an average defender but you have given up on BG's defense? Interesting.

Noah is going to be the next....Verajao? That means we got our asses kicked by Dwight Howard every year and don't win a championship. I am hoping Noah is a much better player than Verajao.

 

[AirP]

??? ?????? wrote:

Is it really hard to envision a championship team including Gordon starting?

Bulls trade Luol Deng, Tyrus Thomas, and filler for Amare Stoudemire.

Derrick Rose becomes a top 10 player, and so does Amare Stoudemire.

Joakim Noah develops into a strong defensive presence of Varejao's level. Derrick Rose ceases to be the worst defender in the league and becomes an average defender.

PG-Derrick Rose/Kirk Hinrich
SG-Ben Gordon/Kirk Hinrich
SF-John Salmons/Small Forward Veteran
PF-Amare Stoudemire/Omer Asik
C- Joakim Noah/Brad Miller

Do people think that team can't win a championship? They might not be a shoe-in to win the championship, but they'd definitely be contenders, and that's all you can really ask for when you don't have Michael Jordan on your team. Even the Lakers with Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O'neal, Gary Payton, and Karl Malone couldn't win it all.

That team has the talent to win it all. That doesn't mean they will, but that team should be able to contend.

It's hard to see a team featuring a guy like Gordon and his shot selection being consistent enough to win that many games to not just get to but win the championship. I have no doubts that Gordon is good enough to dominate games offensively here and there or even a series, but to rely on him as a key player to make it all the way through the playoffs I don't see it. If you have him accept the role of 3rd option or 6th man, sure I could see him being a dominating force, but as the #1 or #2 offensive option... just too shakey from game to game... it averages out but in all reality, he's a 25+ ppg guy one night, a 8-15 ppg guy the next... then boom... you have around a 20 PPG average....

He's talented... great outside shooter but too wild to give a team a solid scoring option every night.

 

[??? ??????]

houheffna wrote:

If Gordon and Rose are your backcourt and you dont have an all-league frontcourt, you will not win....plus that is a lot of supposition for 2010. Especially if Rose is the worst defensive player in the league, which would mean the Bulls have the worst defensive backcourt in the league, which means no championships.

Notice, you want Rose to become an average defender but you have given up on BG's defense? Interesting.

Noah is going to be the next....Verajao? That means we got our asses kicked by Dwight Howard every year and don't win a championship. I am hoping Noah is a much better player than Verajao.

Ben's already a pretty average defender. I'd be happy with Rose if his defense was at BG's level.

A backcourt of Rose/Wade with a mediocre front court is probably not going to win a championship either. Same with a Rose/Kobe backcourt.

 

[houheffna]

Ben's already a pretty average defender. I'd be happy with Rose if his defense was at BG's level.

That is unacceptable, if Rose plays defense at BG's level, he will be inadequate defensively and they will have to sub him out at the end of games for a defensive replacement like they do Gordon. That would be a huge failure, and no, BG is not average defensively.

 

[??? ??????]

AirP wrote:

??? ?????? wrote:

Is it really hard to envision a championship team including Gordon starting?

Bulls trade Luol Deng, Tyrus Thomas, and filler for Amare Stoudemire.

Derrick Rose becomes a top 10 player, and so does Amare Stoudemire.

Joakim Noah develops into a strong defensive presence of Varejao's level. Derrick Rose ceases to be the worst defender in the league and becomes an average defender.

PG-Derrick Rose/Kirk Hinrich
SG-Ben Gordon/Kirk Hinrich
SF-John Salmons/Small Forward Veteran
PF-Amare Stoudemire/Omer Asik
C- Joakim Noah/Brad Miller

Do people think that team can't win a championship? They might not be a shoe-in to win the championship, but they'd definitely be contenders, and that's all you can really ask for when you don't have Michael Jordan on your team. Even the Lakers with Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O'neal, Gary Payton, and Karl Malone couldn't win it all.

That team has the talent to win it all. That doesn't mean they will, but that team should be able to contend.

It's hard to see a team featuring a guy like Gordon and his shot selection being consistent enough to win that many games to not just get to but win the championship. I have no doubts that Gordon is good enough to dominate games offensively here and there or even a series, but to rely on him as a key player to make it all the way through the playoffs I don't see it. If you have him accept the role of 3rd option or 6th man, sure I could see him being a dominating force, but as the #1 or #2 offensive option... just too shakey from game to game... it averages out but in all reality, he's a 25+ ppg guy one night, a 8-15 ppg guy the next... then boom... you have around a 20 PPG average....

He's talented... great outside shooter but too wild to give a team a solid scoring option every night.

If Rose fulfills his potential, and we trade for Stoudemire, they will take a lot of pressure off Gordon to score.

Right now, Gordon is scoring at a great efficiency while being draped with double teams. I think Ben would love to sit back and take wide open threes for a change.

 

[??? ??????]

houheffna wrote:

Ben's already a pretty average defender. I'd be happy with Rose if his defense was at BG's level.

That is unacceptable, if Rose plays defense at BG's level, he will be inadequate defensively and they will have to sub him out at the end of games for a defensive replacement like they do Gordon. That would be a huge failure, and no, BG is not average defensively.

Subbing Gordon out at the end of games has worked out really, well, right? Like after Gordon hit the game winner in game 5....well would have been the game winner if we didn't go and give up the game tying shot on the other end.

Ben Gordon has hit the game winner...err....potential game winner so many times, only to get subbed out of the game and have his teammates on the court blow it.

 

[AirP]

??? ?????? wrote:

If Rose fulfills his potential, and we trade for Stoudemire, they will take a lot of pressure off Gordon to score.

Right now, Gordon is scoring at a great efficiency while being draped with double teams. I think Ben would love to sit back and take wide open threes for a change.

I'd like to believe that and actually believe later in his career he'll be able to do that, but as of now, he's got an alpha male personality and it shows up in his play and his the way he talks about himself in contract negotiations.

Kobe... for as talented as he was/is, he had the alpha male mentality and only now later in his career is he somewhat coming out of his me, me, me mentality.

It's that alpha male mentality that actually makes Gordon as good as he is and if he was able to lessen the number of horrible games he had I wouldn't have a problem building a team around him, he CAN be that good but not enough of the time.

I'll give you this... if he were to sign a long term contract with Chicago he could settle down and not be as wild since he'd have security and no real need to just put up points(for a bigger contract), but if you give him big money and he doesn't change, it's going to lessen Rose's ability to lead this team. In a year or 2, I don't want to see Gordon going one on one for a last shot with Rose just watching, I want Rose going one on one or going off the pick and roll with the option of getting to the rim, hitting Gordon for a wide open 3 or taking an open jumper... in that order... but will Gordon allow that to happen? The great Scottie Pippen couldn't allow Kukoc to take a last shot and sat out... I just have my doubts on Gordon allowing someone else to lead the team.

 

[AirP]

??? ?????? wrote:

houheffna wrote:

Ben's already a pretty average defender. I'd be happy with Rose if his defense was at BG's level.

That is unacceptable, if Rose plays defense at BG's level, he will be inadequate defensively and they will have to sub him out at the end of games for a defensive replacement like they do Gordon. That would be a huge failure, and no, BG is not average defensively.

Subbing Gordon out at the end of games has worked out really, well, right? Like after Gordon hit the game winner in game 5....well would have been the game winner if we didn't go and give up the game tying shot on the other end.

Ben Gordon has hit the game winner...err....potential game winner so many times, only to get subbed out of the game and have his teammates on the court blow it.

Great, he hit some big shots, and that's to his credit. But you're also talking about a guy who shot less then 40% for the series and took a great number of shots. Maybe had he not taken as many shots during those bad shooting nights a last second shot to win wouldn't have been needed?

 

[houheffna]

Subbing Gordon out at the end of games has worked out really, well, right? Like after Gordon hit the game winner in game 5....well would have been the game winner if we didn't go and give up the game tying shot on the other end.

Ben Gordon has hit the game winner...err....potential game winner so many times, only to get subbed out of the game and have his teammates on the court blow it.

Then I take it that Tyrus is a lock at the PF position based on his OT heroics in Game 1? Gordon has fouled up in the final seconds of games far more than he has come through.

 

[??? ??????]

AirP wrote:

??? ?????? wrote:

If Rose fulfills his potential, and we trade for Stoudemire, they will take a lot of pressure off Gordon to score.

Right now, Gordon is scoring at a great efficiency while being draped with double teams. I think Ben would love to sit back and take wide open threes for a change.

I'd like to believe that and actually believe later in his career he'll be able to do that, but as of now, he's got an alpha male personality and it shows up in his play and his the way he talks about himself in contract negotiations.

Kobe... for as talented as he was/is, he had the alpha male mentality and only now later in his career is he somewhat coming out of his me, me, me mentality.

It's that alpha male mentality that actually makes Gordon as good as he is and if he was able to lessen the number of horrible games he had I wouldn't have a problem building a team around him, he CAN be that good but not enough of the time.

I'll give you this... if he were to sign a long term contract with Chicago he could settle down and not be as wild since he'd have security and no real need to just put up points(for a bigger contract), but if you give him big money and he doesn't change, it's going to lessen Rose's ability to lead this team. In a year or 2, I don't want to see Gordon going one on one for a last shot with Rose just watching, I want Rose going one on one or going off the pick and roll with the option of getting to the rim, hitting Gordon for a wide open 3 or taking an open jumper... in that order... but will Gordon allow that to happen? The great Scottie Pippen couldn't allow Kukoc to take a last shot and sat out... I just have my doubts on Gordon allowing someone else to lead the team.

What if Ben Gordon is a better player than Derrick Rose in a year or two? Do you still want Rose taking those shots?

 

[??? ??????]

houheffna wrote:

Subbing Gordon out at the end of games has worked out really, well, right? Like after Gordon hit the game winner in game 5....well would have been the game winner if we didn't go and give up the game tying shot on the other end.

Ben Gordon has hit the game winner...err....potential game winner so many times, only to get subbed out of the game and have his teammates on the court blow it.

Then I take it that Tyrus is a lock at the PF position based on his OT heroics in Game 1? Gordon has fouled up in the final seconds of games far more than he has come through.

That's true of every player. Michael Jordan, the greatest clutch performer of all time, was 25 of 51 on game winners. That means he failed more than he came through too.

Here are game winning shot stats (they're a little outdated, as Gordon's hit two more since their last update, and I don't believe he's missed many).

Gordon comes through a higher percentage of the time in the clutch than Lebron James, Kobe Bryant, and Dwyane Wade.

 

[houheffna]

What if Ben Gordon is a better player than Derrick Rose in a year or two? Do you still want Rose taking those shots?

No, heck no, because Rose would only be 22,23 years old.

 

[houheffna]

That's true of every player. Michael Jordan, the greatest clutch performer of all time, was 25 of 51 on game winners. That means he failed more than he came through too.

Here are game winning shot stats (they're a little outdated, as Gordon's hit two more since their last update, and I don't believe he's missed many).

Gordon comes through a higher percentage of the time in the clutch than Lebron James, Kobe Bryant, and Dwyane Wade.

This is where stats get you in trouble....you have Kobe and Gordon on your team, final seconds, you give Gordon the ball? You would be fired before the game is over.

 

[jsain360]

AirP wrote:

??? ?????? wrote:

If Rose fulfills his potential, and we trade for Stoudemire, they will take a lot of pressure off Gordon to score.

Right now, Gordon is scoring at a great efficiency while being draped with double teams. I think Ben would love to sit back and take wide open threes for a change.

I'd like to believe that and actually believe later in his career he'll be able to do that, but as of now, he's got an alpha male personality and it shows up in his play and his the way he talks about himself in contract negotiations.

Kobe... for as talented as he was/is, he had the alpha male mentality and only now later in his career is he somewhat coming out of his me, me, me mentality.

It's that alpha male mentality that actually makes Gordon as good as he is and if he was able to lessen the number of horrible games he had I wouldn't have a problem building a team around him, he CAN be that good but not enough of the time.

I'll give you this... if he were to sign a long term contract with Chicago he could settle down and not be as wild since he'd have security and no real need to just put up points(for a bigger contract), but if you give him big money and he doesn't change, it's going to lessen Rose's ability to lead this team. In a year or 2, I don't want to see Gordon going one on one for a last shot with Rose just watching, I want Rose going one on one or going off the pick and roll with the option of getting to the rim, hitting Gordon for a wide open 3 or taking an open jumper... in that order... but will Gordon allow that to happen? The great Scottie Pippen couldn't allow Kukoc to take a last shot and sat out... I just have my doubts on Gordon allowing someone else to lead the team.

That point is dead on, that is my fear w/ Ben, his shot selection and his mentality, depending on what happens this offseason or in 2010, we he be willing to take a different role on this team, a role where he doesn't just jack shots, but be more of a team player

 

[charity stripe]

houheffna wrote:

That's true of every player. Michael Jordan, the greatest clutch performer of all time, was 25 of 51 on game winners. That means he failed more than he came through too.

Here are game winning shot stats (they're a little outdated, as Gordon's hit two more since their last update, and I don't believe he's missed many).

Gordon comes through a higher percentage of the time in the clutch than Lebron James, Kobe Bryant, and Dwyane Wade.

This is where stats get you in trouble....you have Kobe and Gordon on your team, final seconds, you give Gordon the ball? You would be fired before the game is over.

Not really. The bulls in the 1997 finals drew up a play for Steve Kerr. Jordan was the decoy. Nobody got fired, and everybody said it was a great strategy.

 

[dougthonus]

That point is dead on, that is my fear w/ Ben, his shot selection and his mentality, depending on what happens this offseason or in 2010, we he be willing to take a different role on this team, a role where he doesn't just jack shots, but be more of a team player

Gordon doesn't "jack up shots". There is not a player in the league who scored more points on less shots this past year if I'm not mistaken.

It would seem like he's getting an awful lot out of the shots he takes on the whole.

 

[jsain360]

??? ?????? wrote:

AirP wrote:

??? ?????? wrote:

If Rose fulfills his potential, and we trade for Stoudemire, they will take a lot of pressure off Gordon to score.

Right now, Gordon is scoring at a great efficiency while being draped with double teams. I think Ben would love to sit back and take wide open threes for a change.

I'd like to believe that and actually believe later in his career he'll be able to do that, but as of now, he's got an alpha male personality and it shows up in his play and his the way he talks about himself in contract negotiations.

Kobe... for as talented as he was/is, he had the alpha male mentality and only now later in his career is he somewhat coming out of his me, me, me mentality.

It's that alpha male mentality that actually makes Gordon as good as he is and if he was able to lessen the number of horrible games he had I wouldn't have a problem building a team around him, he CAN be that good but not enough of the time.

I'll give you this... if he were to sign a long term contract with Chicago he could settle down and not be as wild since he'd have security and no real need to just put up points(for a bigger contract), but if you give him big money and he doesn't change, it's going to lessen Rose's ability to lead this team. In a year or 2, I don't want to see Gordon going one on one for a last shot with Rose just watching, I want Rose going one on one or going off the pick and roll with the option of getting to the rim, hitting Gordon for a wide open 3 or taking an open jumper... in that order... but will Gordon allow that to happen? The great Scottie Pippen couldn't allow Kukoc to take a last shot and sat out... I just have my doubts on Gordon allowing someone else to lead the team.

What if Ben Gordon is a better player than Derrick Rose in a year or two? Do you still want Rose taking those shots?

I don't see that, D.Rose will be an all-star in a year or two, and Ben Gordon is what he is an 18-20ppg scorer, Ben Gordon as a player is maxed out, at his ceiling, its not a bad ceiling, if Ben Gordon averaged 25ppg I would have a problem paying him, In my opinion Ben is one deminsional, and if you one deminsion is scoring your average needs to be at least 25ppg