Kirk to be traded

[jsain360]

houheffna wrote:

But wait Barkley said he is a bench player so it must be true

Barkley is paid to give his opinion, and it is an educated one and I think should be respected, I disagree with him on many things but he was right about the Bulls in the playoffs.

1. That Celtics series was a lot of BAD BASKETBALL.
2. Gordon should come off the bench.

Sense I am basically alone on this issue (at least on this forum), I cite references. Excuse me for not pulling some asinine opinion out of my ass, I actually give my analysis of what I watch, and it happens to jive with a lot of experts who are paid to watch and give their earnest opinion.

People on this forum dislike Stacey King and Neil Funk for the same reasons, their criticisms of BG. I think they are absolutely right in their assessments. It is not meanspirited, it is just a matter of a player not always doing what is best for the team. And since he has an abnormal ability to score, he should come off the bench. Like J.R. Smith is, for a better defensive player. So why wouldn't we start Salmons over Gordon?

I agree, even Scottie Pippen said years ago about Ben Gordon "The shots he take disrespects his teammates", and Scottie is very knowledgable about the game

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

IMO, you start your best player at each position. Gordon is our best SG. When we get someone better than Gordon I will have no problems with him coming off the bench. Until that day comes he will start as long as he stays with the team.

But wait Barkley said he is a bench player so it must be true

Kevin McHale, Clifford Robinson, Manu Ginobili, Leandro Barbosa, Ricky Pierce, what do they all have in common????

Two things,

1. Better players than BG
2. They came off the bench behind players who were not as good, period. If McHale can do it, Gordon can do it....

What else do all those players have in common? They weren't the best players on the team like Gordon has been to the Bulls the last 5 years.

When you have Tim Duncan and Tony Parker, you can have Manu come off the bench.

When you have Clyde Drexler, Terry Porter, Jerome Kersey and Buck Williams, you can have Cliff Robinson come off the bench.

When you have Larry Bird and Robert Parrish, McHale can come off the bench. Which I believe he didn't do that long.

When you have Nash, Amare, Shaq, Richardson, Barbosa can come off the bench.

When you have Jack Sikma B) , Ricky Pierce can come off the bench.

I think Gordon is better than some of those players anyway. Hard to compare a SG to a PF.

 

[J-Mart]

I will bet that 95% of this board has watched more Bulls games this season than Barkley. He is far from an "expert" especially when it comes to the Bulls. He makes moronic statements constantly that are not true. Calling him an expert is a very big reach. He isn't paid for his analysis, he is paid to make bold statements, call people out and sound confident about them whether they are correct or not. Because unfortuanatly thats why people like him and why people watch him.

When it comes to Bulls analysis, a lot of the people on this board give a lot better of one than Barkley. And for the NBA in general also.

 

[Kush77]

J-Mart wrote:

I will bet that 95% of this board has watched more Bulls games this season than Barkley. He is far from an "expert" especially when it comes to the Bulls. He makes moronic statements constantly that are not true. Calling him an expert is a very big reach. He isn't paid for his analysis, he is paid to make bold statements, call people out and sound confident about them whether they are correct or not. Because unfortuanatly thats why people like him and why people watch him.

When it comes to Bulls analysis, a lot of the people on this board give a lot better of one than Barkley. And for the NBA in general also.

I agree 100%. I like Barkley. Him, Kenny and EJ are the best studio show in all of sports. But I don't take Charles' opinions on the Bulls too seriously because I don't think he watched them at all. And when they are TNT he always talks about how bad they are. So I assume he doesn't use his free time to sit down and watch the Bulls.

 

[dougthonus]

Kevin McHale, Clifford Robinson, Manu Ginobili, Leandro Barbosa, Ricky Pierce, what do they all have in common????

Two things,

1. Better players than BG
2. They came off the bench behind players who were not as good, period. If McHale can do it, Gordon can do it....

Clifford Robinson started almost his entire career.
Kevin McHale's best years were as a starter.
Leandro Barbosa is a worse player than Gordon.

That leaves you with Ricky Pierce and Manu Ginobili. So your theory is that you found two players in the history of the NBA who are better than Gordon who came off the bench so therefore Gordon needs to come off the bench?

Gordon was better than Derrick Rose this past year, I guess Derrick Rose should also come off the bench by this logic.

 

[??? ??????]

dougthonus wrote:

Kevin McHale, Clifford Robinson, Manu Ginobili, Leandro Barbosa, Ricky Pierce, what do they all have in common????

Two things,

1. Better players than BG
2. They came off the bench behind players who were not as good, period. If McHale can do it, Gordon can do it....

Clifford Robinson started almost his entire career.
Kevin McHale's best years were as a starter.
Leandro Barbosa is a worse player than Gordon.

That leaves you with Ricky Pierce and Manu Ginobili. So your theory is that you found two players in the history of the NBA who are better than Gordon who came off the bench so therefore Gordon needs to come off the bench?

Gordon was better than Derrick Rose this past year, I guess Derrick Rose should also come off the bench by this logic.

It should be noted too that Ricky Pierce at 25 years old had a 2.2 PPG, 9.9 PPG, and 9.8 PPG season under his belt. Gordon at 25 years old has a 15.1 PPG, 16.9 PPG, 21.4 PPG, 18.6 PPG, and 20.7 PPG seasons.

It should also be noted that Ricky Pierce missed on average 21 1/2 games a season, so you couldn't depend on the guy to actually be there, playing in the starting lineup.

 

[RC_Skinny22]

I never understood why Gordon got that "He plays better of the bench" status. I mean even in the beginning of the last season Sefolosha started instead of Gordon. Thabo is not even close to Gordon. So why don´t you let the best Bulls player since MJ start?

Maybe it should be a kind of motivation. But after a couple of games this is gone. As a player this is getting on your nerves. And then you get the "I have to shoot and show them who I am" mentality.

As a Bulls coach I would start every game with Gordon on SG.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

IMO, you start your best player at each position. Gordon is our best SG. When we get someone better than Gordon I will have no problems with him coming off the bench. Until that day comes he will start as long as he stays with the team.

But wait Barkley said he is a bench player so it must be true

Kevin McHale, Clifford Robinson, Manu Ginobili, Leandro Barbosa, Ricky Pierce, what do they all have in common????

Two things,

1. Better players than BG
2. They came off the bench behind players who were not as good, period. If McHale can do it, Gordon can do it....

Well it must be true if only 5 players in the nba have ever done it.
And I wouldn't call Ricky Pierce and Barbosa better than BG.

 

[houheffna]

Gordon being considered the best player on the Bulls since MJ shows the sad state the Bulls have been in over the past 10 years.

I pointed out 5 players, if you think those are the only players that can be used as an example, well, just keep thinking that.

That leaves you with Ricky Pierce and Manu Ginobili. So your theory is that you found two players in the history of the NBA who are better than Gordon who came off the bench so therefore Gordon needs to come off the bench?

Gordon was better than Derrick Rose this past year, I guess Derrick Rose should also come off the bench by this logic.

No, that is you misconstruing my logic. I think you know EXACTLY what I am saying so I am not going to go any further explaining it. Using your logic, McHale, Robinson and Barbosa never came off the bench even though they were the better player at that position. I am just using facts.

Barkley has to watch how many games to make the decision that Gordon is not good enough defensively to be a starting 2 guard on a competitive team? I think he can do you one better than watch a bunch of Bulls games, he played himself...any scout who has to watch 60 or 70 games to know that the backcourt needs alterations is not worth the time.

Pierce was a better player, Barbosa is just as good in my opinion. I reiterate, Gordon is not a top 10 2 guard if you count swingmen, as you should. If he was, he would have been an allstar by now.

 

[RC_Skinny22]

houheffna wrote:

I reiterate, Gordon is not a top 10 2 guard if you count swingmen, as you should. If he was, he would have been an allstar by now.

I think Gordon is one of the most underrated players in the NBA! He definetely is a top ten 2 guard.

A German basketball magazine called five over here had this top 10 of the season;

1. Dwyane Wade
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Brandon Roy
4. Andre Iguodala
5. Joe Hohnson
6. Vince Carter
7. Ray Allen
8. Richard Hamilton
9. Ben Gordon
10. Leandro Barbosa

I would put Gordon over Hamilton and maybe over Allen. But in your eyes who is missing in that top 10 who is better than Gordon?



Btw: Funny how much is said about Gordon in a Hinrich thread :laugh:

 

[houheffna]

First the list is flawed. Wade over Kobe is just wrong. Back to the issues.

Hamilton plays defense and Allen is better defensively than Gordon. Where is Kevin Martin? What about Josh Howard? If the Bulls could get Howard right now and Deng is the 3, Howard couldn't swing to the SG and be better than Gordon? Iverson is still better, given the right situation and so is McGrady. Iverson is a better scorer and McGrady is a better basketball player period. Manu is over Gordon easily. Jason Terry is also as good.


Top 5 shooter? Gordon is definitely that, but I felt the same way about Peja in his prime, he was further down on the list, but Peja in his prime was a better player than Gordon, and a better shooter.

I think the issue is I would rather have a guy that can score 15ppg and play good solid defense than have a guy who averaged 20ppg who is below mediocre defensively. Especially when the other option is an undersized backcourt that is bad defensively...

If I were convinced that Gordon could be an Iverson like scorer, than fine...don't think he is that good at all or will ever be. Iverson could find ways to score when his shot didn't fall, Gordon just keeps shooting and shooting and shooting...plus Iverson is a smarter basketball player.

Here are Scottie Pippen's feelings about the Hinrich/Gordon backcourt...

Scottie was asked about the Bulls’ backcourt tandem of Ben Gordon and Kirk Hinrich, and the ever candid Pippen did not mince words. Pip said that Gordon has been taking bad shots because he’s angling for a big deal this summer (with the season being a contract one), and called Hinrich vertically challenged:

Pippen’s assessment of Kirk Hinrich included this: ”He’s not that talented. Let him run the offense. But you can’t have midgets running your backcourt. Little guards always put you in a vulnerable position.”

Of course, he didn't watch 70 Bulls games a year either...did he?

 

[dougthonus]

1. Dwyane Wade
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Brandon Roy
4. Andre Iguodala
5. Joe Hohnson
6. Vince Carter
7. Ray Allen
8. Richard Hamilton
9. Ben Gordon
10. Leandro Barbosa

Wade
Kobe
Roy

After that, I could put Gordon up with any of the rest of the guys. If I'm looking at the next five years. I'd take Gordon over everyone else on that list with Iguodala and Johnson being the only debatable ones. Of course within the next five years there might be other guards who come up and pass him who aren't on it too.

 

[houheffna]

I GUARANTEE YOU five years from now you will have the same problems you have now if you have Rose and Gordon starting as your backcourt. Rose will get better defensively I believe, Gordon just doesn't have the mentality.

Why did Ron Harper start at PG for the Bulls? Scoring, ballhandling, shooting? No...defense, he was a damn good defender in those years. That is the problem, you are waiting for Shooting guards to get old/retire/commit suicide before Gordon moves up the list...like there won't be better SGs coming down the pike over the next five years? Don't like those odds.


You think Gordon can do more on a basketball court than Iguodala and Joe Johnson? Are you kidding me? If you had a seven game series against Boston, you would take Gordon over Ginobili? Now Gordon is a top 4 guard, but he can't make all-league and cant make a damn all-star game, even after 15 guards get hurt they pass over him...

you and a few people on here would put Gordon in the top 5, you are definitely in the minority on that one.

 

[RC_Skinny22]

So let´s see. MJ retired 1998. From 1999 to the 04/05 season (oh this was BG´s rookie season ) the Bulls never made the playoffs. And since this season the Bulls made the playoffs every year except 07/08.

So the frontcourt is not our problem. The Bulls need one or two good backcourt players and that´s it. Why do you want to change the frontcourt? We have one of the NBA´s best frontcourts!

It is not about what will happen in five years. It is about the next season!

 

[AirP]

dougthonus wrote:

1. Dwyane Wade
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Brandon Roy
4. Andre Iguodala
5. Joe Hohnson
6. Vince Carter
7. Ray Allen
8. Richard Hamilton
9. Ben Gordon
10. Leandro Barbosa

Wade
Kobe
Roy

After that, I could put Gordon up with any of the rest of the guys. If I'm looking at the next five years. I'd take Gordon over everyone else on that list with Iguodala and Johnson being the only debatable ones. Of course within the next five years there might be other guards who come up and pass him who aren't on it too.

Hmm... the next 5 years is hard to look since we don't know what young SGs will make an impact in the next 5 years... even guys who aren't in the NBA yet.

Guys I'd think are better SGs...
Wade, Kobe, Ginobili, J.Johnson, B.Roy, K.Martin

Guys around his quality level...
V.Carter, J.Richardson, R.Hamilton, E.Gordon, S.Jackson, Redd, R.Allen, Barbosa, Iggy, JR Smith

He's at the least... better then half the starting SGs in the NBA, but there's a notacable dropoff between guys who are better then him and then players he's around overall quality wise.

Quality doesn't always mean the best fit for a team, if Gordon could handle being a GREAT spot up shooter, come off screens for his shots and only 1 on 1 when the clock is winding down he'd be a great fit next to Rose but with him having an alpha dog mentatility(which won't change in a few seasons) I don't care how good he really is because he's not good enough to take the ball out of Rose's hands, especially if Rose gets much better over the course of his career.

Of the guys that I think are head and shoulders better then Gordon... only Wade, Kobe and Ginobili are guys who are good enough to take the ball out of Rose's hands, the rest would need to learn to spot up and shoot off of Rose and the offense.

 

[houheffna]

AirP, my point exactly, know your role. I would like for these basketball heads on this forum to tell me how you win a championship with Gordon and Rose starting...how? And what is the precedence for guys with their skill sets.

Bullseye, the frontcourt is NOT GOOD, do not be fooled by bad basketball in the playoffs. Making the playoffs aint nothing to brag about. 16 of 30 make the playoffs, that's not an accomplishment to brag about. Combined, Portland and Utah had 41 consecutive playoff appearances and have how many championships???

 

[cool007]

houheffna wrote:

AirP, my point exactly, know your role. I would like for these basketball heads on this forum to tell me how you win a championship with Gordon and Rose starting...how? And what is the precedence for guys with their skill sets.

Bullseye, the frontcourt is NOT GOOD, do not be fooled by bad basketball in the playoffs. Making the playoffs aint nothing to brag about. 16 of 30 make the playoffs, that's not an accomplishment to brag about. Combined, Portland and Utah had 41 consecutive playoff appearances and have how many championships???

hmy:

So making the playoffs is nothing??? Especially given that we have had NO SUPERSTAR or even an All-star since MJ/Pip era - yet we made playoffs every year since Gordon joined the team (except 1 year) and that is no accomplishment???

Also, Find me a great (or better SG) than Gordon who is making $9mil or less a year.

Let me know your answer. If you can't find it, then I would rather have BG as my teams' SG, who is making $9mil or less a year. (unless ofcourse he signs with someone for a lot more).

 

[AirP]

houheffna wrote:

AirP, my point exactly, know your role. I would like for these basketball heads on this forum to tell me how you win a championship with Gordon and Rose starting...how? And what is the precedence for guys with their skill sets.

Bullseye, the frontcourt is NOT GOOD, do not be fooled by bad basketball in the playoffs. Making the playoffs aint nothing to brag about. 16 of 30 make the playoffs, that's not an accomplishment to brag about. Combined, Portland and Utah had 41 consecutive playoff appearances and have how many championships???

There's a reason why I said I think we can save money at SG... because we can live with a lesser SG(to save money to spend on other positions) next to Rose as long as he can play solid defense and hit open shots.

With a talent like Derrick Rose, the pick and roll should be our bread and butter so why not work on making those 2 positions as strong as possible? Everyone else should work off them with one or 2 backups who can create their own shots.

Right now we have the most important player covered, the guy who runs the pick and roll, now it's time to get the 2nd most important player... the PF who is the 2nd half of the pick and roll. I'd rather worry about the rest of the team after that UNLESS you get the players at a good value.

 

[AirP]

cool007 wrote:

houheffna wrote:

AirP, my point exactly, know your role. I would like for these basketball heads on this forum to tell me how you win a championship with Gordon and Rose starting...how? And what is the precedence for guys with their skill sets.

Bullseye, the frontcourt is NOT GOOD, do not be fooled by bad basketball in the playoffs. Making the playoffs aint nothing to brag about. 16 of 30 make the playoffs, that's not an accomplishment to brag about. Combined, Portland and Utah had 41 consecutive playoff appearances and have how many championships???

hmy:

So making the playoffs is nothing??? Especially given that we have had NO SUPERSTAR or even an All-star since MJ/Pip era - yet we made playoffs every year since Gordon joined the team (except 1 year) and that is no accomplishment???

Also, Find me a great (or better SG) than Gordon who is making $9mil or less a year.

Let me know your answer. If you can't find it, then I would rather have BG as my teams' SG, who is making $9mil or less a year. (unless ofcourse he signs with someone for a lot more).

The thing is you don't need a player like Gordon who can one on one and score efficiently when they shoot in volume next to Rose... They need to understand their role, the ability to hit the 3 ball to spread the court and play solid if not good defense. Sure a guy like Gordon is better overall then someone like Raja Bell, but Bell would play the role next to Rose very well and allow a good portion of money to be used elsewhere on the roster. Another big reason we need to move Hinrich and Deng, they'll never be a good value on Rose's team... both good players but both aren't going to be utilized much more then defenders and guys who can hit the open jumper. If you want to overspend... overspend at PF so we have a DEADLY pick and roll we can go to game in and game out since we already have the PG to run it.

 

[houheffna]

Its not about the pay, its about personnel. I would rather pay more to have a better SG if I know that the SG can contribute as a starter to a championship by playing defense and moving the ball. Since I can find a dozen or so better at the position, and they are legitimate starters, those are players I would rather have.

What is it with the bargain basement mentality? I would rather pay Kevin Martin an extra $2 mil to score within the offense and give the ball to Rose. He plays no defense either but he is a more efficient scorer than Gordon. Plus he has some height and can add some defense to his game if he is inclined to.

People on this forum don't understand the importance of defense or so it seems. So what if Ben Gordon hits a crazy shot or too? You don't make a majority of dumb shots in the NBA so you are hurting your team more than helping.

Point blank, until we find a SG, we should start Salmons and let Gordon or Hinrich come off the bench.