Kirk to be traded

J-Mart

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Dpauley23 wrote:
Diddy1122 wrote:
Dpauley23 wrote:
Joe Smith? are you serious. Luol Deng had 16 points on 48 percent shooting thats pretty good. I agree Wallace was one of problems, but Ric Buchler has said team turned on Skiles when they continued to start Hinrich over Duhon when everyone felt Duhon should start. I also think Skiles be scared of Wallace lost alot of respect from players

So the coach choosing Kirk to start is Kirk's fault? And please, Duhon sucks. I'm amazed he even starts for NY. Yeaaa, he played injured. Good for him. I can't believe that the team wanted a backup starting over a legit starting PG, who was their friggin' team captain!

Skiles scared of Wallace? Puh-leez. He went toe to toe with Shaq, he's not scared of anyone. Management made the concessions for Wallace, not Skiles. And if you talk to KC he will tell you the three I mentioned had a hand in getting Skiles canned. I think I'll trust the Bulls beat writer's word over Ric Bucher.

Well if you listened to Doug's podcast Bulls Beat you would of realized that Skiles had the other players take care of Wallace for him. At practice he would swear and Skiles and just leave while Skiles made Pete Myers go talk to him

I have nothing to back this up, but IMO I think Skiles was told that he couldn't argue with Wallace by JR. The fact that he went that far out of his way to avoid Wallace is not like Skiles at all. I bet he was told he would get the can if he stopped playing Wallace or had confrontations with him. I think that is a big reason why he left.

Wallace got preferential treatment while he was here, bending the headband rule for him is an example of that.
 

vhans5219

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The problem with Kirk Hinrich is he's not like Ben Gordon he can't score like him but he Kirk can play solid defense and Ben can't play defense so this is a tough situation to figure out this offseason do you want Kirk or Ben ?
 

??? ??????

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vhans5219 wrote:
The problem with Kirk Hinrich is he's not like Ben Gordon he can't score like him but he Kirk can play solid defense and Ben can't play defense so this is a tough situation to figure out this offseason do you want Kirk or Ben ?

I'd say about 80% of the people want Gordon back.

This is something that I've been meaning to point out to Fred. While there is a strong dislike for Gordon among a certain group, there is also a strong liking for him.

There are TWO current Bulls players with their own t-shirts. Ben Gordon has two shirts for sale. Derrick Rose has three now, although really only two "designer" ones (the bobblehead one and there is a black one with Rose with big magic hands too). The third one is his ROY t-shirt.

There isn't a Hinrich t-shirt, a Deng t-shirt, a Thomas t-shirt. Ben Wallace is the only other recent Bull I remember getting their own t-shirts designed.

So there is quite a bit of love for Gordon, as he's merchandising well enough to have two t-shirts designed with his likeness on them.

I think it's clear that you take Ben Gordon over Kirk Hinrich. It'd be great to have them both back, but I don't think Hinrich exactly wants to be back if he's coming off the bench. My guess is Hinrich is traded, and sometime comes back, and finishes out his career with us.
 

houheffna

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I disagree, the number is not 80%....and if he insists on starting, then I would guess those numbers are way off. Most of my friends and other people I know are indifferent. So I think "undecided" would get a bulk of the votes.
 

Shakes

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I don't think wanting a player to be traded means you dislike them. I like both Ben and Kirk, but I want both of them to be traded (whether now or later) because I don't think either are ideal fits on the team long term now we have Rose.
 

houheffna

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I like Kirk and Ben in certain roles. Neither would start for this team if it was any good. That is my point. Both are pretty good off the bench but not starting.
 

pinkizdead

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??? ?????? wrote:
vhans5219 wrote:
The problem with Kirk Hinrich is he's not like Ben Gordon he can't score like him but he Kirk can play solid defense and Ben can't play defense so this is a tough situation to figure out this offseason do you want Kirk or Ben ?

I'd say about 80% of the people want Gordon back.

.

i disagree. there are soooooooooo many gordon haters. i dont understand it. i'd say 46 % of casual fans want him back. 80% of actual fans want him back.
 

pinkizdead

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TheStig wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
TheStig wrote:
So this is contingent on resigning Ben I assume.

Nope, I've heard they want to move Hinrich even if they don't sign Ben.
Wow, I am surprised they soured on him so quickly, I thought he was filling his role well and is a captain. I understand they don't like his salary but I don't understand the move unless you resign Ben. Neither Kirk or Salmons are sgs but at least they cover each others weaknesses.

kirk can play off the ball, but he's not a natural 2. if gordon walks, would we have kirk come of the bench? if so, 10 mil is a lot of cash to spend on a 6th man. if salmons comes off the bench, it might make more sense. err still you'd have to juggle minutes between rose, kirk, and salmons. i dont know if it would be worth it. if we had an a spend thrift owner, i'd be down for it.
 

pinkizdead

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vhans5219 wrote:
The problem with Kirk Hinrich is he's not like Ben Gordon he can't score like him but he Kirk can play solid defense and Ben can't play defense so this is a tough situation to figure out this offseason do you want Kirk or Ben ?

it's not quite sophie's choice. we could get other defensive players. taller defensive players! sign gordon. that sort of scoring is unheard of!
 

Woodz

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pinkizdead wrote:

[/quote]

i disagree. there are soooooooooo many gordon haters. i dont understand it. i'd say 46 % of casual fans want him back. 80% of actual fans want him back.[/quote]

Unfortunately, this is very true. Is there something about being a casual fan that causes you to dislike efficient scoring?
 

AirP

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Woodz wrote:
i disagree. there are soooooooooo many gordon haters. i dont understand it. i'd say 46 % of casual fans want him back. 80% of actual fans want him back.

Unfortunately, this is very true. Is there something about being a casual fan that causes you to dislike efficient scoring?

Guess I'm in that 20% actual fans that's pretty indifferent with Ben Gordon. I want him back as a 6th man, ready to move forward without him.

Gordon's a great shooter but he has too many games "off" to allow him to free lance as much as he does in the Bulls offense as a starter. I can't remember the actual percentages I posted last month but... as a team it's tough to be consistant when one of your main options isn't consistant... he's a 25ppg guy part of the time, at nearly the same rate he's a 12 ppg guy, this isn't throttled by weather or not the team needs his scoring, it's throttled by weather he's on or off that particular evening.

He's a GREAT wildcard coming off the bench. But building an offense, it's got to be fustrating as hell to have such a question mark to one of your top scorers.[/quote]

i disagree. there are soooooooooo many gordon haters. i dont understand it. i'd say 46 % of casual fans want him back. 80% of actual fans want him back.[/quote]

Unfortunately, this is very true. Is there something about being a casual fan that causes you to dislike efficient scoring?
 

Woodz

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AirP wrote:
Guess I'm in that 20% actual fans that's pretty indifferent with Ben Gordon. I want him back as a 6th man, ready to move forward without him.

Gordon's a great shooter but he has too many games "off" to allow him to free lance as much as he does in the Bulls offense as a starter. I can't remember the actual percentages I posted last month but... as a team it's tough to be consistant when one of your main options isn't consistant... he's a 25ppg guy part of the time, at nearly the same rate he's a 12 ppg guy, this isn't throttled by weather or not the team needs his scoring, it's throttled by weather he's on or off that particular evening.

He's a GREAT wildcard coming off the bench. But building an offense, it's got to be fustrating as hell to have such a question mark to one of your top scorers.

Ray Allen is pretty streaky, but the Celtics won a championship last year. If Gordon is our main option then we will be in trouble. But getting rid of him doesn't help the team get any farther in the playoffs. He would be a GREAT 3rd option if we can land a stud in the 2010 class. I also believe that simply having him on the team would help recruit one of the studs. If you are bosh/amare, do you want to play on a team devoid of 3pt shooters that can space the floor.

Obviously price is an issue, and i do not want him back for $12mill+ a year. But if we can get him around the $9mill range, i think you have to pull the trigger.
 

AirP

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Woodz wrote:
AirP wrote:
Guess I'm in that 20% actual fans that's pretty indifferent with Ben Gordon. I want him back as a 6th man, ready to move forward without him.

Gordon's a great shooter but he has too many games "off" to allow him to free lance as much as he does in the Bulls offense as a starter. I can't remember the actual percentages I posted last month but... as a team it's tough to be consistant when one of your main options isn't consistant... he's a 25ppg guy part of the time, at nearly the same rate he's a 12 ppg guy, this isn't throttled by weather or not the team needs his scoring, it's throttled by weather he's on or off that particular evening.

He's a GREAT wildcard coming off the bench. But building an offense, it's got to be fustrating as hell to have such a question mark to one of your top scorers.

Ray Allen is pretty streaky, but the Celtics won a championship last year. If Gordon is our main option then we will be in trouble. But getting rid of him doesn't help the team get any farther in the playoffs. He would be a GREAT 3rd option if we can land a stud in the 2010 class. I also believe that simply having him on the team would help recruit one of the studs. If you are bosh/amare, do you want to play on a team devoid of 3pt shooters that can space the floor.

Obviously price is an issue, and i do not want him back for $12mill+ a year. But if we can get him around the $9mill range, i think you have to pull the trigger.

Ben Gordon doesn't seem like he's mentally(at this point in his career) has the ability to be a 3rd option for any decent length of time. He's still out there trying to prove himself and be as good as he thinks he can be, down the road he'll accept his role of hitting open jumpers and then creating his shot near the end of the shot clocks. I'd rather retain him, move him to 6th man and when he's in the game he can be the #1 option without disrupting the starting 5.

I just don't see the downside(of the current roster) of running with...
Starting 5: Rose, Salmons, Deng, Tyrus and Noah
Bench: Gordon, Miller, Hinrich
This is with Gordon having the green light the entire time in the game, he's an efficient high volume shooter, if he's off that night you stick with your starters a couple minutes more, if he's on you can rest your starters a few more minutes.

Gordon still gets his minutes, he's got a green light basically the whole time out there, the only difference, he's not taking shots away from the starters and he's coming off the bench.

Once he's signed, as long as there's no verbal agreements, we can utilize him anyway we need too. By the way, why throw numbers on his contract, let the market dictate his contract, if there's no money out there you can low ball him and if he doesn't like it he can take lesser money from someone else(which I very well doubt he'll do). He played hard ball last year wanting big money and lost, why reward him now when nobody else can or will give him big cash?
 

RC_Skinny22

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I don´t see Salmons over Gordon as a SG. Im my eyes Ben ist the best SG we can get next season.

The question is: Is Salmons a better SF than Deng? But the key is to get a player like Stoudemire. I don´t want to see a new SG because I think we won´t get a good one. And playing with a rookie SG? No thanks. I think the Bulls have a very good chance to get Amare. But what will be the price?

The Bulls could also start like this:

PG: Rose
SG: Gordon
SF: Salmons
PF: Deng
C: Stoudemire

What do you think?

It is about Gordon staying or not when you make your decision to trade Kirk or not. I would love to have the captain sitting on the bench next season again. I always say it: Think about Rose having an injury. Then what?
 

fola

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Woodz wrote:
AirP wrote:
Guess I'm in that 20% actual fans that's pretty indifferent with Ben Gordon. I want him back as a 6th man, ready to move forward without him.

Gordon's a great shooter but he has too many games "off" to allow him to free lance as much as he does in the Bulls offense as a starter. I can't remember the actual percentages I posted last month but... as a team it's tough to be consistant when one of your main options isn't consistant... he's a 25ppg guy part of the time, at nearly the same rate he's a 12 ppg guy, this isn't throttled by weather or not the team needs his scoring, it's throttled by weather he's on or off that particular evening.

He's a GREAT wildcard coming off the bench. But building an offense, it's got to be fustrating as hell to have such a question mark to one of your top scorers.

Ray Allen is pretty streaky, but the Celtics won a championship last year. If Gordon is our main option then we will be in trouble. But getting rid of him doesn't help the team get any farther in the playoffs. He would be a GREAT 3rd option if we can land a stud in the 2010 class. I also believe that simply having him on the team would help recruit one of the studs. If you are bosh/amare, do you want to play on a team devoid of 3pt shooters that can space the floor.

Obviously price is an issue, and i do not want him back for $12mill+ a year. But if we can get him around the $9mill range, i think you have to pull the trigger.


I couldnt have said it any better myself. It still boggles my mind as to why people want him coming off the bench so much.

And as far as him be streaky. Ok, but what does that really mean? And of course, there are tons of people who have a better FG% in the league. But how many of them avg. 20ppg+? Well... kobe, wade, cp3, tony parker, and brandon roy. Pretty decent company. Now dont get me wrong, I understand that there is more to him that just his shooting, and i'm sure you have reasons for wanting someone else over him. But still, at the price that we can hopefully get him at(7-9mil), he's a bargain.
 

AirP

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fola wrote:
I couldnt have said it any better myself. It still boggles my mind as to why people want him coming off the bench so much.

And as far as him be streaky. Ok, but what does that really mean? And of course, there are tons of people who have a better FG% in the league. But how many of them avg. 20ppg+? Well... kobe, wade, cp3, tony parker, and brandon roy. Pretty decent company. Now dont get me wrong, I understand that there is more to him that just his shooting, and i'm sure you have reasons for wanting someone else over him. But still, at the price that we can hopefully get him at(7-9mil), he's a bargain.

All those players you named.... they do things other then shoot jumpers and they all have a lot less "bad" nights then Gordon(this is the biggest reason). The guys you named are less "streaky" then Gordon by far. Gordon had 11 games of 11 points or less this regular season, that's pretty hard to swollow on a parameter oriented team.

If Gordon becomes a 3rd option, is he still worth big bucks? The less shots he takes the more important his defense is... because I'd take a lesser offensive SG that plays much better defense at a much lower contract then BG if he's the 3rd or lower option. I already expect Rose to be a higher option then Gordon and if we get a stud big he better be a higher option then Gordon... so if everything works out right, we don't really need to overspend on an average at best defensive player who's a good shooting 3rd option.
 

??? ??????

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Among the scorers similar to Ben Gordon is about in the middle as far as consistency goes.

And I don't get this big bucks for Gordon argument. The guy is probably asking for $10 million a year.

The $54 million that he agreed to sign last summer, is less than 50% of the max.

Less than 50% of a max contract seems pretty decent for a third option, who is currently the best player on your team.
 

fola

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AirP wrote:
The guys you named are less "streaky" then Gordon by far.

Which is pretty much the point i was just making, no? But i wouldnt really say by far. Also, for the range i mentioned, to be arguably one of (top 3 imo) the best 3rd options in the league.. its a steal. Seriously.
 

AirP

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fola wrote:
AirP wrote:
The guys you named are less "streaky" then Gordon by far.

Which is pretty much the point i was just making, no? But i wouldnt really say by far. Also, for the range i mentioned, to be arguably one of (top 3 imo) the best 3rd options in the league.. its a steal. Seriously.

Just because he can score? I'm down with giving him something under 10 million a year, he's worth more then Hinrich(who is overpaid) but seriously, the way he play disrupts the whole offense... which wouldn't be a bad thing if he wasn't as bad as he can be as many times a year as he is.

I get it, he "gets his". Now if he'd just "get his" in the flow of the offense and slow down on taking some quick shots I'd be a much bigger Gordon supporter, size doesn't matter if he can score and play solid defense.
 

houheffna

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If you are talking championships, Rose and Gordon are not a championship backcourt, unless we get a Shaq/Duncan type young frontcourt to build around...that is near impossible.

Gordon is a defensive liability, period. You need a wing player who can guard people.
 

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