LeBron called Rose after loss

[houheffna]

i agree. i just think joe johnson is one of the most overrated shooting guards in the nba.

He is a very good player, top 5 at his position. That said, he would compliment Rose well, but don't put words in my mouth. I never said he was overrated. I think he is very good. Give yourself credit for that faulty analysis, don't put that on me. He is much better than any shooting guard this team has had in the past decade...easily.

 

[pinkizdead]

1. kobe
2. wade
3. roy
4. ginobli


distant distant distant 5? johnson?

if kevin martin was ever healthy, i'd rather have him.

 

[houheffna]

Kevin Martin is not a better player than Johnson, neither is Manu...try again man...you should order NBA League Pass next year and watch some games man...

 

[RC_Skinny22]

When "if healthy" counts T-Mac is my number 3!

 

[Shakes]

Agree Kevin Martin isn't better, disagree Manu isn't better. Without wanting to start another "which non Bull is better" epic with Hou, I think Manu is better than Roy even.

Joe Johnson is probably the 5th best at his position right now, although you could argue Ray Allen actually shows up in the playoffs, and I think it's a reasonable chance he's passed by younger guys like Stephen Curry soon (possibly even next year).

 

[pinkizdead]

kevin martin when healthy will give you 29-30 efficient pts. he's on a 10 million dollar a year deal. i'd rather have him, but i dont know if he's better than JJ. they both play mediocre to average defense. JJ is way too big and way too slow to guard a sg. i've been saying it for a while. there aren't too many 245 lbs sg's out there. he's a sf. martin is a great scorer, and he's efficient.

i guess my point is top 5 at your position doesn't mean much when there's a significant drop at 2nd best player, and even more significant drop after 4th. JJ might be the 5 best sg, but he's not jaw dropping good. i'd rather have a healthy kevin martin at 10 million a year.

 

[TheStig]

Shakes wrote:

TheStig wrote:

But BG isn't comparable to Pax. Pax never put up 20ppg and scorers get paid. Find me a 20ppg scorer who makes significantly less. BG's career scoring average is more than double. I was making the point that down the stretch, BG can still contribute very well in the clutch and spread the floor.

BG isn't going to score 20PPG if LeBron is here though. I'd guess he'd be closer to 13 PPG. Find me a 13 PPG scorer who doesn't rack up assist or rebounds and is only an average defender making 10 million a year and you've found someone people think is grossly overpaid.

No he wouldn't, both Rose and Bron prefer to set up team mates. He'd probably put up about 18ppg. He isn't playing with Kobe and would get about 15 shots per game, not to mention his efficency would go up. I doubt he wouldn't get shots being the only perimeter threat and having non offensive minded bigs like Noah and Gibson.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

Kevin Martin is not a better player than Johnson, neither is Manu...try again man...you should order NBA League Pass next year and watch some games man...

I'd take Martin just because his contract is much better. For the time being JJ is the better player. But I don't know if you'd still be able to call him top 5 in a couple of years.

 

[Shakes]

pinkizdead wrote:

kevin martin when healthy will give you 29-30 efficient pts.

So you think he can give you 5 more points a game than his career high (which BTW was put up on a 19 win team, ie he got as many shots as he wanted)?

 

[Shakes]

TheStig wrote:

No he wouldn't, both Rose and Bron prefer to set up team mates. He'd probably put up about 18ppg. He isn't playing with Kobe and would get about 15 shots per game, not to mention his efficency would go up. I doubt he wouldn't get shots being the only perimeter threat and having non offensive minded bigs like Noah and Gibson.

15 shots a game is more than Ben Gordon's career average, and that was mostly playing on some pretty bad offensive teams. You're telling me playing next to 2 all-stars he's going to get more shots than his career average?

You do realise despite being willing passers that LeBron took 20 shots a game and Rose 17.6 this year. Given the entire Bulls team took 83, that's 45% of the team's shots gone already. There's simply not enough shots to go around for Gordon to take 15, unless the front court and bench is never going to touch the ball.

 

[TheStig]

Shakes wrote:

TheStig wrote:

No he wouldn't, both Rose and Bron prefer to set up team mates. He'd probably put up about 18ppg. He isn't playing with Kobe and would get about 15 shots per game, not to mention his efficency would go up. I doubt he wouldn't get shots being the only perimeter threat and having non offensive minded bigs like Noah and Gibson.

15 shots a game is more than Ben Gordon's career average, and that was mostly playing on some pretty bad offensive teams. You're telling me playing next to 2 all-stars he's going to get more shots than his career average?

You do realise despite being willing passers that LeBron took 20 shots a game and Rose 17.6 this year. Given the entire Bulls team took 83, that's 45% of the team's shots gone already. There's simply not enough shots to go around for Gordon to take 15, unless the front court and bench is never going to touch the ball.

Lol fine 14. 15 is 1/2 a shot over his career average. Who else is gonna take the other 40+ shots. You got Noah, Gibson and a couple of min guys. You can easily take another 14 or 15 for BG and still get 30 shots to the rest of the guys. Would you really give those other guys more than 30 shots per game anyway? Not to mention with little to no bench, BG, Rose and Bron would be playing close to 40mpg. I have no doubt in my mind an unselfish group like that would make it work. And if you can't have BG get enough shots, whats gonna happen to kirk and Deng? Are they gonna score like 8ppg? What a bad deal thats gonna be having deng play behind bron and score next to nothing while making 12 mill per.

 

[Shakes]

Of course Kirk and Deng are bad deals, that was the original point: Kirk's 2 year bad deal is better than Ben's 4 year bad deal.

 

[TheStig]

Shakes wrote:

Of course Kirk and Deng are bad deals, that was the original point: Kirk's 2 year bad deal is better than Ben's 4 year bad deal.

I don't think BG is a bad deal imo. He had a big injury this year and if he returns to form will be a efficient 20ppg scorer. Scorers get paid. I really liked him at 6/54 and would be fine with him at what he got. He doesn't need to control the ball and I think him and Rose would be the best back court in the NBA.

Back to my question, what would Deng put up playing behind Bron? How much can you pay a third scorer? Third Scorers on championship teams make what BG does.

 

[Shakes]

TheStig wrote:

Back to my question, what would Deng put up playing behind Bron?

Assuming the rotation allows Deng to get 36 minutes a game I guess he'd be around the 13 PPG I had for Gordon. So yeah he'd be pretty overpaid. Deng at least provides above average rebounding and defense for his position if he's not a primary scorer though.

How much can you pay a third scorer?

It's not about the third scorer, it's about team balance. When you already have two perimeter scorers are your #1 and #2, paying a third perimeter guy seems silly.

Third Scorers on championship teams make what BG does.

No championship team I can think of had it's top three scorers at PG/SG/SF.

 

[TheStig]

Shakes wrote:

Assuming the rotation allows Deng to get 36 minutes a game I guess he'd be around the 13 PPG I had for Gordon. So yeah he'd be pretty overpaid. Deng at least provides above average rebounding and defense for his position if he's not a primary scorer though.

BG is a better scorer and unless we start playing multiple sfs at the same time, how do you expect Deng to get 36mpg?

It's not about the third scorer, it's about team balance. When you already have two perimeter scorers are your #1 and #2, paying a third perimeter guy seems silly.

If anything Rose duplicates what Bron gives you. BG is not a slasher like the other two. He is the compliment to them, strech the floor and work without the ball.

No championship team I can think of had it's top three scorers at PG/SG/SF.

During our second three peat, our top three scores were two sfs and a sg. During our 72 win team, 5 of our top 6 scorers played those postions. When you have a guy who is among the best ever, you can get away with that.

 

[Shakes]

TheStig wrote:

BG is a better scorer and unless we start playing multiple sfs at the same time, how do you expect Deng to get 36mpg?

Because we'll have nobody else and he'll have to play those minutes? We'd have Rose/Kirk/LeBron/Gibson/Noah with Deng the 6th man. We can use the rest of our money to sign a 7th and that's our core rotation, with the min vets and draft picks playing spot minutes. So yeah, I'd expect LeBron & Deng to be out there together quite a bit.

During our second three peat, our top three scores were two sfs and a sg. During our 72 win team, 5 of our top 6 scorers played those postions. When you have a guy who is among the best ever, you can get away with that.

Hardly the same thing. We played a lot of Jordon/Pippen/Kukoc (heck that lineup started fairly often), so I'd say Kukoc was the PF as much as anything.

 

[TheStig]

Shakes wrote:

Because we'll have nobody else and he'll have to play those minutes? We'd have Rose/Kirk/LeBron/Gibson/Noah with Deng the 6th man. We can use the rest of our money to sign a 7th and that's our core rotation, with the min vets and draft picks playing spot minutes. So yeah, I'd expect LeBron & Deng to be out there together quite a bit.

So the solution is to be undersized and not able to stretch the floor at all. Great. BG is a much better fit with that group, at least you get some outside shooting outside of kirk's streakiness.

Hardly the same thing. We played a lot of Jordon/Pippen/Kukoc (heck that lineup started fairly often), so I'd say Kukoc was the PF as much as anything.

Kukoc may have had some minutes at the 4 but he was hardly a 4. He also barely started outside of the last year when pippen was out a lot. He started a whopping 35 games over the two championship years. Hardly often.

 

[houheffna]

If anything Rose duplicates what Bron gives you. BG is not a slasher like the other two. He is the compliment to them, strech the floor and work without the ball.

you don't pay a guy 12mil to do that...that is crazy. And why wouldn't you want a frontcourt player to be the 2nd or 3rd scorer? Bron and Rose don't NEED Gordon. And as I have said before, that team would be susceptible to defensive problems in that backcourt...Lebron would get flashbacks of Mo Williams and other backcourt players getting handled by the opposition and he might kill himself. No thank you...

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

If anything Rose duplicates what Bron gives you. BG is not a slasher like the other two. He is the compliment to them, strech the floor and work without the ball.

you don't pay a guy 12mil to do that...that is crazy. And why wouldn't you want a frontcourt player to be the 2nd or 3rd scorer? Bron and Rose don't NEED Gordon. And as I have said before, that team would be susceptible to defensive problems in that backcourt...Lebron would get flashbacks of Mo Williams and other backcourt players getting handled by the opposition and he might kill himself. No thank you...

I would love a front court player to be the 2nd or 3rd scorer. The question is did they have to be and could it work. We aren't talking about BG vs Bosh here. Stop with the BG defensive liability crap. In his last year here, point out some guys who lit him up? I will point out more that had bad games against him. He isn't the epitome of feistyness but he isn't a liability. Rose is worse defensively at this point. You don't want to dump him do you?

 

[Shakes]

TheStig wrote:

So the solution is to be undersized and not able to stretch the floor at all. Great. BG is a much better fit with that group, at least you get some outside shooting outside of kirk's streakiness.

I don't like it any more than you do. But Deng is what we've got, and he's better than some min contract scrub, so he'll get minutes.

See we're talking in circles here. You think that Deng is a bad fit or Kirk is overpaid makes Gordon the right choice. As I've said several times, I would have let both Deng and Gordon walk then dumped Kirk, so the badness of Deng or Kirk doesn't sway me one bit when it comes to Gordon.

Kukoc may have had some minutes at the 4 but he was hardly a 4. He also barely started outside of the last year when pippen was out a lot. He started a whopping 35 games over the two championship years. Hardly often.

Well he certainly wasn't a PG, which is what I was saying about not starting three primary scorers at the 1/2/3.