Let's Put Theo and Jed to sleep

[brett05]

I'm not entirely going to disagree with this but I will say the cardinals haven't drafted a player in the top 100 prospects since the new CBA. It's entirely possible that has more to do with the fact that it's only been 2 years and generally high picks get rated quicker even if they ultimately don't pan out. However, I don't think we're near close enough to say what impact the of the new CBA will be. For example, IFA are typically 5 years at the earliest and 3-4 years on HS players with college guys being from the first draft under the new CBA seeing time within the next year or two.

Completely agree and I think you start it off correctly too. It's only been two years... But Theo/Ricketts have been here longer, right?

 

[Boobaby1]

Ah the Michael Wacha argument. Lets talk about Michael Wacha. You know why Michael Wacha looks like a steal for the Cardinals. It is because the moment he went from college to being in the Cardinals system his fastball velocity jumped from the 90-94 range to averaging 93.1 last year. His curveball went from an average pitch to above average pitch. Of course this happens for the Cardinals, but lets not act like this is something that is easily duplicated.

So the approach apparently is to hope to get lucky on a guy that has his stuff noticeably jumps immediately after being drafted which has happened all of one time so far in the post CBA draft world. Are there going to be guys that drop due to various reasons, sure? But the odds are that they typically are pitchers, and that you need more than a little luck to land on them.

Michael Wacha was drafted by the Cardinals for one reason, because he had the make-up of Wainright and Carpenter. Obviously it is something they look for, and obviously they have had success in doing so, so it is no wonder why they have some of the pitching talent they have. Luck my ass. It is having a superior front office and organization that is all about winning.

BTW, Wacha skated right through the ranks and excelled at every level in a short amount of time. He didn't need 150 innings at every level.

I would bet that they were creaming in their pants when the time came to draft him and he was still available.

 

[Boobaby1]

This is my main issue with the Cubs plan. I didn't agree with the "full rebuild" plan from the start, and after witnessing the plan in action, I think the plan is very weird.

Samardijza really isn't that young, and he's not a top starting pitcher IMO. Castro is a good hit/no field SS who would be a nice #7 or #8 hitter on a contending team. Rizzo is a #6 hitter at the 1B position.

The Cubs make it seem as if the rebuild plan is very detailed and regimented...certain things are going to happen at certain times, like a Step 1 Step 2 Step 3 flow chart. The problem is that Step 1 never took place. Sveum was a disaster as a manager. Castro and Rizzo are peripheral pieces at best. And now the good young players are being kept in the minors simply because its "part of the plan", and the Cubs want to "time" their appearance in the Majors where they are being the final additions to an already competitive team. Its also a money-saving ploy, where the Cubs have these good young players hitting the FA market as late in their careers as possible.

Who would want to be a part of such a terrible organization? If you are a good young player, how could you not realize that you are being kept in the minors while lesser-talented players are on the Cubs major league team simply because the Cubs don't want to pay you? Wouldn't that make you want to leave the organization as soon as you possibly could? And if the Cubs aren't winning World Series while guys like Baez and Bryant are still on their initial contracts, then do the Cubs think they'll have a chance to re-sign any of these guys once those initial contracts expire?

It seems like the Theo plan was supposed to be this well thought-out, multi-year strategy where the Cubs gradually improve into a contending team. I think the reality is that the Cubs will continue to suck and will actually get worse until there is a singular mass influx of minor league talent brought up to the Majors. Its already at the point where the players in the minors are better than the players on the Cubs major league roster...and the only reason the Cubs haven't enacted this singular mass influx of minor league talent is because they don't want to pay them.

Thats my casual fan view of the situation.

You echoed my sentiments entirely with Rizzo. If the Cubs are going to be good, he has to be 6th at best in the line-up which means the talent ahead of him has to be far superior.

When it is put that way, you can kind of see just how much work is still to be done, unless the million to one shot of the big four become All-Star players for the Cubs.

 

[beckdawg]

Samardijza really isn't that young, and he's not a top starting pitcher IMO. Castro is a good hit/no field SS who would be a nice #7 or #8 hitter on a contending team. Rizzo is a #6 hitter at the 1B position.

I think your Castro assessment is fine but I honestly think you're under valuing Rizzo. If Rizzo is a .250 hitter then yeah he's probably a #6 hitter. However, if he's in that .270 range he's going to do a lot more work than that because he gets on base via walks. In 2012 he hit .285/.342/.463. This season so far he's .375/.459/.531. Obviously you can't just totally ignore Rizzo's 2013 season but if he's a .280-.290 hitter that in turn means he's a .360+ OBP type. Seeing something like a .280/.360/.500 line wouldn't be that surprising. And if he does that, that's pretty similar to Josh Donaldson's season last year where he hit .301/.384/.499. Donaldson was an MVP candidate. If nothing else, Rizzo's on base makes him more of a 3/4 hitter.

 

[AHSIllini32]

People bitching about the plan are the same morons who will be cheering their collective drunken asses off when the Cubs are in the playoffs. Theo and Jed have flat out been 100% honest with what they're doing since day 1. If you didn't like it then, you aren't liking it now. If you were on board with it then but have changed to say you hate it now then you're a fool. Unless you think buying FA and trading away prospects worked out so well for the franchise up to this point. Damn near every baseball person that has been asked about the Cubs process has lauded both the plan and the farm system. I'm happy that Jed and Theo haven't deviated to appease impatient jackasses who chose not to pay attention.

This organization had very few major league capable players when Ricketts and the boys took over and they had absolutely zero in the farm system. Now they've got young, productive major league players and a farm system that has every other organization save for maybe one or two drooling over it.

Any dumbass that's going to complain about Baez's start after about a week of games should go the **** away.

And don't start bitching about how the Cubs aren't spending money. 1) They said all along they weren't going to spend on high priced old FA's especially if the team wasn't in a position to succeed yet and 2) remember when they offered Tanaka something like $120 mil?

I understand it's the nature of message boards to be impatient and irrational but this takes stupid to another level.

 

[X]

They said all along they weren't going to spend on high priced old FA's especially if the team wasn't in a position to succeed yet and 2) remember when they offered Fujikawa something like $120 mil?

I understand it's the nature of message boards to be impatient and irrational but this takes stupid to another level.

HOLY CRAP!

(Tanaka?)

 

[AHSIllini32]

HOLY CRAP!

(Tanaka?)

My bad, was reading a bunch of minors stuff over the last couple days and made a mistake. Went back and edited. Thanks.

 

[nwfisch]

People bitching about the plan are the same morons who will be cheering their collective drunken asses off when the Cubs are in the playoffs. Theo and Jed have flat out been 100% honest with what they're doing since day 1. If you didn't like it then, you aren't liking it now. If you were on board with it then but have changed to say you hate it now then you're a fool. Unless you think buying FA and trading away prospects worked out so well for the franchise up to this point. Damn near every baseball person that has been asked about the Cubs process has lauded both the plan and the farm system. I'm happy that Jed and Theo haven't deviated to appease impatient jackasses who chose not to pay attention.

This organization had very few major league capable players when Ricketts and the boys took over and they had absolutely zero in the farm system. Now they've got young, productive major league players and a farm system that has every other organization save for maybe one or two drooling over it.

Any dumbass that's going to complain about Baez's start after about a week of games should go the **** away.

And don't start bitching about how the Cubs aren't spending money. 1) They said all along they weren't going to spend on high priced old FA's especially if the team wasn't in a position to succeed yet and 2) remember when they offered Tanaka something like $120 mil?

I understand it's the nature of message boards to be impatient and irrational but this takes stupid to another level.

What else is stupid is to act as 3 seasons of sucking will result in long-term success.

I feel confident in saying the Cubs won't make the playoffs under Theo Epstein's direction.

But keep drinking the Cubbie Kool-aid, Joe Ricketts will take your money.

 

[AHSIllini32]

What else is stupid is to act as 3 seasons of sucking will result in long-term success.

I feel confident in saying the Cubs won't make the playoffs under Theo Epstein's direction.

But keep drinking the Cubbie Kool-aid, Joe Ricketts will take your money.

This is funny from an apparent Sox fan. Regardless, three seasons of sucking actually does tend to lead to long-term success. In case you haven't noticed, which I'm not surprised you haven't, is that you get better draft picks for having worse records. The Cubs had literally nothing when Theo and Jed took over except for Castro and Garza without a damn thing in the farm system.

Also, perhaps you haven't paid attention (again, not surprising) to the fact that the Ricketts aren't exactly making money right now. You're acting like they planned to suck and just continue to make money. You're an idiot if you believe that.

So according to you, getting better draft picks and turning a farm system around 180 degrees from bottom third to top five (and even top three depending on who listen to) doesn't lead to success? Of course it doesn't guarantee success but neither did buying a bunch of FA's and giving them stupid ass contracts. The FO is accruing assests for two reasons: 1) some of them are going to turn into quality MLB players and 2) most of them will be used to acquire proven MLB entities. Also known as: doing what smart, winning organizations do.

 

[brett05]

Ahs.

Your last two diatribes are so full of error



Just a fast fix

Nwfisch is a die hard cub fan. Given his great knowledge of baseball I could see how you could miss that

Sent from my SCH-I200 using Tapatalk

 

[nwfisch]

Favorite teams mean so much brett, don't you know?

 

[nwfisch]

Let's pretend that I am a diehard White Sox fan, that'd be pretty pathetic that I know more about the Cubs than alleged Cub fans.

 

[AHSIllini32]

Ahs.

Your last two diatribes are so full of error



Just a fast fix

Nwfisch is a die hard cub fan. Given his great knowledge of baseball I could see how you could miss that

Sent from my SCH-I200 using Tapatalk

If you'd like to point them out then go ahead. Otherwise you just look butt-hurt and are throwing bullshit out there.

 

[brett05]

If you'd like to point them out then go ahead.

I gave you one with Fisch and you've yet to post an apology. Start being a man and I'll list your other errors to apologize for

Sent from my SCH-I200 using Tapatalk

 

[FirstTimer]

I could be undervaluing Rizzo. I just don't see him having the power to be your typical 1B 3/4 hitter. He's more of a Doug Mientiewicz than a Derrick Lee even. JMO

That's a pretty hard undervalue IMO. I can't for the life of me remember who I compared Rizzo to last season but he in my mind is your typical 25 HR 270-280 batting +defensive 1B. Last year was an anomaly on the slash line. His peripherals were good.

EDIT* The guy was Adam Laroche.

 

[FirstTimer]

How about Chris Chambliss instead of Mientiewicz?

His 1976-1983 peak? I could see that, except I think Rizzo has more power.

 

[JP Hochbaum]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa!

Surely you aren't bashing a team that from 2003 to 2008, was in the playoffs 50% of the time, and favored to win the division over the mighty Cardinals 66% of the time?

Oh the humanity for a Cubs fan to truly be excited that they went to the playoffs 3 times in 6 years which is the same amount of appearances that they had went to the previous 50 years.

I've been a Cubs fan for over 45 years, and NEVER have they impacted that much excitement in that span of time.

Show me a Cubs fan who wasn't excited then, and I'll show you a liar. :shot:

Yes, but if we had any minor league depth at all we could have won the WS or been in the playoffs all 6 years.

 

[brett05]

Yes, but if we had any minor league depth at all we could have won the WS or been in the playoffs all 6 years.

:wayne:

 

[Jntg4]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa!

Surely you aren't bashing a team that from 2003 to 2008, was in the playoffs 50% of the time, and favored to win the division over the mighty Cardinals 66% of the time?

Oh the humanity for a Cubs fan to truly be excited that they went to the playoffs 3 times in 6 years which is the same amount of appearances that they had went to the previous 50 years.

I've been a Cubs fan for over 45 years, and NEVER have they impacted that much excitement in that span of time.

Show me a Cubs fan who wasn't excited then, and I'll show you a liar. :shot:

Patg

JK, I'm going to go find a Cubs fan born in 2010 and get back to you now.

 

[chibears55]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa!

Surely you aren't bashing a team that from 2003 to 2008, was in the playoffs 50% of the time, and favored to win the division over the mighty Cardinals 66% of the time?

Oh the humanity for a Cubs fan to truly be excited that they went to the playoffs 3 times in 6 years which is the same amount of appearances that they had went to the previous 50 years.

I've been a Cubs fan for over 45 years, and NEVER have they impacted that much excitement in that span of time.

Show me a Cubs fan who wasn't excited then, and I'll show you a liar. :shot:

I wouldn't exactly say I was excited all 6 of those yrs., unless you count watching sosa hit bombs.
Obviously 2003.. 04-06 was disappointing as they went from 5 outs to a WS down to a 66 win team and zero playoff appearances.
07 they were the tallest midget, winning a bad division with 85 wins and it showed as they got spanked in playoff. 08 they rocked but again disappointed in playoffs.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T217A using Tapatalk