Let's start projecting what the Cubs will look like in a few years!

DewsSox79

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Is it wrong to be giddy about the number 1 farm system in baseball? If so, I guess I'm drinking the kool aid.

its not about being the number 1 farm team. these players as you know (since you are captain obvious) have to pan out. just because they are ranked 1 doesnt mean much until they are at the mlb level. a lot of baseball fools look directly at the farm system ranking when it comes to players but it is more about the ranking of the development team more than anything else. its also a number 1 farm system with zero pitching and zero pitching on the mlb level.


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DewsSox79

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Boobaby, I have no issues with what you wrote. Much of it is agreeable.




The thing is life-long Cubs fans, real Cubs fans, season ticket holders, fans with kids, fans who have been loyal to the team for 40+ years (in my case), fans who have coached little league, and high school, and have told their kids to never ever give up... Watched this team purposefully give up. 4 years now and counting.

And while you say it was time for a "system" change, you and I both know this team has been a perennial cellar dweller in the past and tried this before. Theos "system"is not a new thing. It's actually an old thing. Old to baseball and old to the Cubs.


Many may not remember or have studied (there seems to be a lot of kids on this site) the 50's and 60's Cubs that built the farm that became the early 70's team - that failed.

Many may not remember the late 70's, early 80's teams that helped build a farm system that built the 1984 team - that failed.


The point is building a farm system not only doesn't guarantee prospects will succeed. It also doesn't guarantee the team will.

I will say it again. The ONLY thing tanking seasons guarantees is losing.

Theo's "lose to maybe win" system is not the only - and not the best IMO - way to build a team. Spending the AMPLE cash that a big city team like the Chicago Cubs has on proven talent (both on the roster and in FA) does guarantee you can challenge more than not. Hendry was given Card Blanche and won the division 3 out of 6 seasons between 2003 and 2008.


You are right. We went down a path and there's really no going back.

But to ask a 40 year old fan to give up 4 to 6 years and expect him to be happy with watching the most brutally pathetic Cubs baseball ever - is ridiculous.

respect. please keep posting. you get it.


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SilenceS

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its not about being the number 1 farm team. these players as you know (since you are captain obvious) have to pan out. just because they are ranked 1 doesnt mean much until they are at the mlb level. a lot of baseball fools look directly at the farm system ranking when it comes to players but it is more about the ranking of the development team more than anything else. its also a number 1 farm system with zero pitching and zero pitching on the mlb level.


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TL1961

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And we're trying to explain to you that no one would be bitching about a 5 game slump. We're trying to figure out why supposed Cubs fans are giddy about purposeful 4 year slump.


Hell, the OP wrote the thread about what the team may look like in a "few" years - implying he's resigned to a crappy 2015 as well.


Welcome to professional sports.

If you aren't the best, it is better to be worst for a while than to be mediocre forever.

Rather than try to win 84, make the playoffs as a wildcard one time, with nothing in the pipeline, Theo realizes it is better to get top talent and build a team that can actually have sustained success.

After years of the same failed approach, their current GM and Prez actually GET it.

They have more talent in their system today than any time in your lifetime. They are n the third straight year if tanking....and the LAST. Deal with it.
 

Mongo_76

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Welcome to professional sports.

If you aren't the best, it is better to be worst for a while than to be mediocre forever.


You do realize that last year was the first time in a loooong time that the "best" two teams actually played for the WS.

It's important to put a team together that can compete and get into the playoffs - where getting hot, finding a big bat, catching the wave of a pitcher, or plain luck - can win it all.
 

Mongo_76

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After years of the same failed approach, their current GM and Prez actually GET it.

Get what? Theos "lose to maybe win" system fails year after year as well. Just because it's new to you, doesn't mean it's new.


Like I said. Theos system isn't novel. It's as old as baseball. The only thing he's doing different is how LONG he is willing to go before he stops the tanking. He picked the Cubs, like he picked the Redsox, because there was a fanbase that goes to see the games (and make the owner money) even if the team loses. So his "fanboy rope" is longer.

He could never do this with a team like Arizona or the Whitesox.

And again, his system fails. It fails and has failed over and over for the Cubs.

Like I said before, the right approach (system) is debatable.

But what is not debatable is that the teams that purposefully tank, win it all a lot less than the teams that go out and get talent. And while you might want to dismiss the examples of the Yankees and Cardinals - you're not really bright if you do.
 

Parade_Rain

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My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Cubs
  1. Chicago Bulls
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Illinois Fighting Illini
Hindsight is 20/20. We aren't there yet. The memoirs will be interesting.
 

Boobaby1

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Get what? Theos "lose to maybe win" system fails year after year as well. Just because it's new to you, doesn't mean it's new.


Like I said. Theos system isn't novel. It's as old as baseball. The only thing he's doing different is how LONG he is willing to go before he stops the tanking. He picked the Cubs, like he picked the Redsox, because there was a fanbase that goes to see the games (and make the owner money) even if the team loses. So his "fanboy rope" is longer.

He could never do this with a team like Arizona or the Whitesox.

And again, his system fails. It fails and has failed over and over for the Cubs.

Like I said before, the right approach (system) is debatable.

But what is not debatable is that the teams that purposefully tank, win it all a lot less than the teams that go out and get talent. And while you might want to dismiss the examples of the Yankees and Cardinals - you're not really bright if you do.

And here's the thing though. I kinda like the chances that two farm boys Rizzo and Castro came through the system, proving that they can become all-stars whether voted in by the fans, or picked by the manager. It's still an accomplishment no matter how you slice it.

Now, if they were able to transfer their minor league stats to the majors, one would think that their is a fairly decent possibility that half of the four between Alcantara, Baez, Bryant, and Soler can do it too. Not to mention that you still have Russell, Schwarber, Almora, and McKinney in the rearview mirror, and a boatload of money to be able to spend.

Not that it is a guaranteed formula, but I have to admit that the odds are definitely in the Cubs favor MO if they can now use that freed up money to land ANY free agents. I can't think of too many teams that wouldn't want to have the arsenal that the Cubs are going to have moving forward, and guess what? They get another year of strengthening the roots while the fruit is ripening on the tree.

I think I can speak for everyone that I am hungry, and ready to eat.
 

TL1961

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Get what? Theos "lose to maybe win" system fails year after year as well. Just because it's new to you, doesn't mean it's new.


Like I said. Theos system isn't novel. It's as old as baseball. The only thing he's doing different is how LONG he is willing to go before he stops the tanking. He picked the Cubs, like he picked the Redsox, because there was a fanbase that goes to see the games (and make the owner money) even if the team loses. So his "fanboy rope" is longer.

He could never do this with a team like Arizona or the Whitesox.

And again, his system fails. It fails and has failed over and over for the Cubs.

Like I said before, the right approach (system) is debatable.

But what is not debatable is that the teams that purposefully tank, win it all a lot less than the teams that go out and get talent. And while you might want to dismiss the examples of the Yankees and Cardinals - you're not really bright if you do.

The Cubs have had bad years. But they have never tried this approach. Ever.

Doesn't work? Call Rocky Wirtz and ask him how it works.
 

TL1961

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Get what? Theos "lose to maybe win" system fails year after year as well. Just because it's new to you, doesn't mean it's new.


Like I said. Theos system isn't novel. It's as old as baseball. The only thing he's doing different is how LONG he is willing to go before he stops the tanking. He picked the Cubs, like he picked the Redsox, because there was a fanbase that goes to see the games (and make the owner money) even if the team loses. So his "fanboy rope" is longer.

He could never do this with a team like Arizona or the Whitesox.

And again, his system fails. It fails and has failed over and over for the Cubs.

Like I said before, the right approach (system) is debatable.

But what is not debatable is that the teams that purposefully tank, win it all a lot less than the teams that go out and get talent. And while you might want to dismiss the examples of the Yankees and Cardinals - you're not really bright if you do.

Nobody argues that the Yankees and Cards have been successful.

The Cards built their farm system and maintained it, and put a high value on having an organizational philosophy top to bottom. Anyone in baseball will tell you that. The Cubs never put value on that, and it shows.

The Cards are successful not because they tanked, but because they have a strong farm system.

Theo and Jed came to a team with poor talent at the major league level, and a farm system that was weak. In order to build from scratch, they knew they needed to start with the farm, NOT go after 34 year-old fat home run hitters as past regimes have done.

They have done an almost unbelievably quick job of completely transforming the farm system, yet you say they have failed.

Find me ONE expert on MLB who feels they are doing it wrong or that they have "failed". That is absolutely ridiculous.

The Cubs have rebuilt countless times, by always putting a Band-Aid on an open wound.

We finally are doing it the right way. They have far more talent now than any time in recent history that it is hard to believe people could argue against that.

I am not predicting they win a WS in the next few years, but they will be viable playoff contenders for years to come. That is something we simply haven't seen. And they will have a legit chance at winning it all. If you feel they need to show you before you believe that, I can't blame you.

But don't say they have tried this and failed. They have never tried this.

Don't say it doesn't work. See the Indianapolis Colts or Chicago Blackhawks for starters.
 

DewsSox79

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Never fails that these are the people that get it...

i tend to hope your opinions of what the cubs do is sincere. of all people i would expect you to be against something if you truly felt that way. if the cubs just did the opposite and just spent would you agree with that too? im just curious because if you solely believe in this project i respect that, i just dont respect those who are sheep. it seems like the kool aid drinkers get a free pass but those fans who are having the negative opinions get shunned.

i take it mongo 76 was born in 76 and with me being born in 79 if my dumb ass team the sox didnt win in 05 and they were doing what the cubs are doing id be feeling the same as mongo.




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DewsSox79

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The Cubs have had bad years. But they have never tried this approach. Ever.

Doesn't work? Call Rocky Wirtz and ask him how it works.

dont compare the nhl to the mlb. please dont. i dont want to make you look like a fool.


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Bear Pride

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i tend to hope your opinions of what the cubs do is sincere. of all people i would expect you to be against something if you truly felt that way. if the cubs just did the opposite and just spent would you agree with that too? im just curious because if you solely believe in this project i respect that, i just dont respect those who are sheep. it seems like the kool aid drinkers get a free pass but those fans who are having the negative opinions get shunned.

i take it mongo 76 was born in 76 and with me being born in 79 if my dumb ass team the sox didnt win in 05 and they were doing what the cubs are doing id be feeling the same as mongo.




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Again with the fuckin sheep? Now I know where brett gets it from. I assume you mean, as followers. Yet, you continually judge the Cubs on the last 100 years, with the new regime having just 3.5 years.

The ironic thing for me, is it takes a leader, one with vision, to see that the last 3 years have not been like the prior 100 years. I don't care what happened before. I like what I see happening now.

You BS Sox fans can herd yourself, living in the past, the few of us, mostly Cubs fans, have the vision to see that a new day is nearly upon us.
 

diavolos

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You're right, the Yankees don't tank seasons. They are the exception and not the rule. The Cardinals haven't had to tank because they did have a few flukes as having arguably the best hitter (besides Cabrera now) and best catcher come through the system. They are the exception, and one that teams want to emulate. They did howeve remain very stagnant throughout the late 80's and through most of the 90's, so it does happen to them too.

The Yankees? Impossible because only a select few have the ability to spend like they do. As many know, I am a proponent to using free agents and the farm cohesively, but one is not here yet (or at least not enough).

That said, lets keep that word "system" fresh throughout the post. The aforementioned teams have had Jeter, Posada, Rivera, Petitte, Cano, Gardner and others come through the ranks. The Cardinals had Pujols, Craig, Molina, Rosenthall, Wacha, Wainright (via trade), Motte, Haren, Miller, Lynn, Kelly, Taveras, Wong, Jay, and the list goes on and on. Lets also not forget that the Cardinals traded away some of their system to net Edmonds, Rolen, Holiday, and Mulder.

And if you look at other teams around the league, the Giants with their guys (Cain, Posey, Lincecum, Bumgardner, Panda, Crawford, Vogelsong), A's, Nationals( Harper, Strasburg, Zimmerman's, Desmond, Rendon), (players to acquire Gio Gonzalez), Brewers (Fielder, Braun, Gallardo, Weeks, Hart, Hardy, Segura, Lucroy) , Braves, Pirates, Royals. The Phillies championship team had 8 of the 9 starters come via the system.

I could go on and on, and most around here feel that the Cubs are going to put free agents around the farm kids (whichever ones pan out) when the time comes, as opposed to not committing to players within the last three years because the farm is so close to bearing it's fruit. Not everyone is going to pan out, but it makes more sense to completely gut the team and start fresh. Throwing a ton of money against the wall to see if it sticks is not smart business sense.

The best way (not guaranteed) is to play the odds of reaping good teams because you have in-house guys at the parent level which you can control and keep cheaply and/or lock up. You have in-house guys you can trade to net what you needs are as the Cardinals did in the early 2000's, and because the kids are cheap, it gives you the financial flexibility to target the good players if/when they become available. If other teams can do it, why should the Cubs be immune to doing it?

All teams have good quality players that came up through the ranks. The Cubs best in the last 10 years or so have been Shark and Archer (who were traded), Rizzo, Castro, Marshall, and Russell. Not too good.

Yeah, it was definitely time to work on improving that "System" thing.

The object should be making the team the most attractive destination for players outside the system to want to come and play for (see the Cardinals). And if you take a stroll down memory lane, you will see that key components to the Cubs best years and teams were heavily influenced by kids who came up through the ranks, or kids in the "system" (Joe Carter, Bobby Hill, Choi) that were used to get exceptional players in return.

I feel the days of tanking personally are over, and since the farm is ever so close, they have Manny in AAA, McLeod signing an extension, and they have freed up even more with Soriano, Villy, Shark, Hammel, Veras, Fujikawa, Barney, Schierholz, and now have payroll flexibility, I fully believe brighter times are on the horizon.

I am anxious to see the kids join Rizzo and Castro in giving them the boost they need, and then hopefully, we will be putting all of this rant behind us in the very near future, and we can start focusing on which select free agents to acquire, and how we are taking most series versus other teams, rather than hoping we can take 1 out of every 3 now, and how we hate it that we are drafting # 29 or #30 in the draft. :beerbang:

i get what you're saying. it's a logical, thought out argument.

my problem has always been the loser mentality. yes, the yankees can spend more than anyone else. but you will never see the giants tank multiple seasons. ok, it's not going to nor has ever happened. sure, they've stunk up the joint and have been forced to rebuild. it's baseball, right? every team tries to trade players when their season is over. and sometimes teams know going in to a season that they've got big problems, try to put a good face on it, and work the trade deadline. yeah, it's baseball all teams do it. but purposefully tank season? not even try to improve the major league roster? never. multiple seasons? give me a break.

when you hear epstein say something like "every season is precious" then continue to "build" the farm, to me it just shows how hollow the words truly are. yes, i want them to spend money on the major league franchise, this is what winners do. yes, sometimes you have to overpay. but at least you still have major league talent on your major league team.

i have no doubt that this team will improve because of the moves that have been made--they actually cannot, historically, get worse.

so let me ask you, one fan to another, you feel like you can or should spend money to take your family out to the ballgame in this climate? if you count tickets (i've got three kids), dogs, drinks, maybe a souvenir or two, you're talking hundreds of dollars. you'd take your kids out to wrigley for this?
 

diavolos

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Again with the fuckin sheep? Now I know where brett gets it from. I assume you mean, as followers. Yet, you continually judge the Cubs on the last 100 years, with the new regime having just 3.5 years.

The ironic thing for me, is it takes a leader, one with vision, to see that the last 3 years have not been like the prior 100 years. I don't care what happened before. I like what I see happening now.

You BS Sox fans can herd yourself, living in the past, the few of us, mostly Cubs fans, have the vision to see that a new day is nearly upon us.

do you even realize how many times the cubs have "rebuilt" in the last 40 years?
 

CSF77

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Lets see how the prospects deal with adapting to the majors before calling them anything.

Rizzo hit 20+ bombs like Bryant has and struggled in his first full season. Now he has having a break out season.

The talent is there but those guys need to go through the process and some will not make it.
 

DewsSox79

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Again with the fuckin sheep? Now I know where brett gets it from. I assume you mean, as followers. Yet, you continually judge the Cubs on the last 100 years, with the new regime having just 3.5 years.

The ironic thing for me, is it takes a leader, one with vision, to see that the last 3 years have not been like the prior 100 years. I don't care what happened before. I like what I see happening now.

You BS Sox fans can herd yourself, living in the past, the few of us, mostly Cubs fans, have the vision to see that a new day is nearly upon us.

I love your optimism i really do.

living in the past? nope. just stating the fact that we got to experience a championship thats all. its an awesome feeling for sure. im sure you will feel like 5 of them since you have theo and the top farm system.


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