Let's start projecting what the Cubs will look like in a few years!

[SilenceS]

Let me rephrase before the crazy peeps come out. The Cardinals drafting Pujols wasnt lucky. The Cardinals drafting a guy in the 8th round that turns out to be probably the best hitter of a generation is luck.

 

[Captain Obvious]

i'm actually not a hater of the cubs; i'm a cubs lover. what i hate is what's happening to this franchise and general fan apathy and/or toeing the company line.

i don't have a lineup solution. but i do have a gm solution: walt jocketty. somehow in the midst of a long winning stretch they manage to draft allen craig, matt adams, kolten wong, matt carpenter, lance lynn, trevor rosenthal (those are just guys on this year's roster, and there's more), add free agents like mark mcgwire and jim edmonds (and more) and oh yeah, draft albert pujols. "sustained success" indeed.

Pedroia, Papelbon, Ellsbury, Bucholtz, Middlebrooks, Bogarts, and Bradley Jr. is a pretty impressive list of players too. Not to mention Rizzo.

Carpenter, Adams, Wong, Lynn, and Rosenthal weren't even drafted by Jocketty. So your argument just fell apart.

Also, Albert was drafted in the 13th round.

 

[diavolos]

Pedroia, Papelbon, Ellsbury, Bucholtz, Middlebrooks, Bogarts, and Bradley Jr. is a pretty impressive list of players too. Not to mention Rizzo.

Carpenter, Adams, Wong, Lynn, and Rosenthal weren't even drafted by Jocketty. So your argument just fell apart.

Also, Albert was drafted in the 13th round.

yeah i know exactly when pujols was drafted--that is actually part of my point. and the cardinals, "they", drafted all those players and they weren't even high picks, many of them not even first rounders. so yeah, my argument is still: draft smart, trade smart, don't tank seasons, add free agents as necessary. to win!

instead, we have: tank four seasons in a row, probably tank a couple more until all the players are ready, hope all your prospects work out, don't spend money on the mlb franchise until when(?). and somehow, "sustained success". have fun with spending your money and your time on the cubs in this situation.

 

[KBIB]

Let me rephrase before the crazy peeps come out. The Cardinals drafting Pujols wasnt lucky. The Cardinals drafting a guy in the 8th round that turns out to be probably the best hitter of a generation is luck.

When was Pujols drafted in the 8th round?

 

[diavolos]

i would love for someone to point out to me when the fucking yankees ever fucking tanked a season. or the cardinals. is it a surprise that these just happen to be the teams with the most world series? what about the bosox? or the giants or dodgers? yeah, all those aforementioned franchises have had bad stretches. but in my life, i have never, ever seen any of the franchises i just listed purposefully tank seasons, like what the cubs have done now...for the last four years in a row.

so you guys can talk about whatever bullshit prospects and the "plan" and the wrigley renovation bullshit.

 

[Captain Obvious]

i would love for someone to point out to me when the fucking yankees ever fucking tanked a season. or the cardinals. is it a surprise that these just happen to be the teams with the most world series? what about the bosox? or the giants or dodgers? yeah, all those aforementioned franchises have had bad stretches. but in my life, i have never, ever seen any of the franchises i just listed purposefully tank seasons, like what the cubs have done now...for the last four years in a row.

so you guys can talk about whatever bullshit prospects and the "plan" and the wrigley renovation bullshit.

You don't understand the new CBA do you?

 

[diavolos]

oh i understand. losers always have an excuse for losing. but it was the cba!

 

[KBIB]

As for the Cards drafting Pujols being luck, he was like the 400+ player drafted in 1999. He had a ton of red flags attached to him which is why he lasted so long, one being his questioned age. There was no doubt he would be a major league hitter. If I recall a scout quit when his team didn't draft him. Every scout worth his salt knew he could rake, it was the Cards who took the chance on him. I don't consider that luck, I consider that one team taking a shot that payed off.

Luck is buying a one dollar lottery ticket and winning 100 bucks. Not paying a dollar knowing you will win 100 bucks.

 

[Captain Obvious]

oh i understand. losers always have an excuse for losing. but it was the cba!

So you're just a douche bag? Okay, got it.

 

[dabynsky]

Carpenter, Adams, Wong, Lynn, and Rosenthal weren't even drafted by Jocketty. So your argument just fell apart.

Yes the Cards were't particularly adept at drafting and developing talent under Jocketty. It was with the front office switch to Molzeniak and bringing in everyone's favorite punching bad, right now rightfully so, Jeff Luhnow that drafted most of the talent that the Cards have now.

Jocketty is a smart dude and has worked very well in two places. He doesn't get the praise he deserves for building up two mid market teams in to contenders. That said as everyone continues to point out the situation that Theo Epstein has inherited is a bit unprecedented. The only team even remotely comparable is the Mets and even then they were probably in a better situation when Alderson took over than Epstein did with the Cubs.

 

[theberserkfury]

As for the Cards drafting Pujols being luck, he was like the 400+ player drafted in 1999. He had a ton of red flags attached to him which is why he lasted so long, one being his questioned age. There was no doubt he would be a major league hitter. If I recall a scout quit when his team didn't draft him. Every scout worth his salt knew he could rake, it was the Cards who took the chance on him. I don't consider that luck, I consider that one team taking a shot that payed off.

Luck is buying a one dollar lottery ticket and winning 100 bucks. Not paying a dollar knowing you will win 100 bucks.

Seems like you're mixing metaphors at the end here... if the Cards knew he was going to be a generational talent, why would they wait 13 rounds and risk someone else taking the chance and drafting him?

I wouldn't say they knew anything... they had hopes and then took a calculated risk and it paid off fantastically... that sounds at least a little like luck to me.

 

[KBIB]

Yes the Cards were't particularly adept at drafting and developing talent under Jocketty. It was with the front office switch to Molzeniak and bringing in everyone's favorite punching bad, right now rightfully so, Jeff Luhnow that drafted most of the talent that the Cards have now.

Jocketty is a smart dude and has worked very well in two places. He doesn't get the praise he deserves for building up two mid market teams in to contenders. That said as everyone continues to point out the situation that Theo Epstein has inherited is a bit unprecedented. The only team even remotely comparable is the Mets and even then they were probably in a better situation when Alderson took over than Epstein did with the Cubs.

Umm, yes they were. They used minor leaguers to trade for proven talent. Those players surely didn't pan out, but look at Jockettys resume for winning in the majors, its frighteningly good borderline great. Jocketty during his tenure in St. Louis, made the big team stronger at the expense of the minor leagues. I can recall some years where the Cards system was considered weak, but again, development of prospects under Jocketty always seemed to turn up a couple players each and every year that suddenly had value to bring over a proven commodity.

Something to think about.

 

[KBIB]

Seems like you're mixing metaphors at the end here... if the Cards knew he was going to be a generational talent, why would they wait 13 rounds and risk someone else taking the chance and drafting him?

I wouldn't say they knew anything... they had hopes and then took a calculated risk and it paid off fantastically... that sounds at least a little like luck to me.

Well, hitting wasn't a concern. It was his questioned age, his build, and where he was going to play. Pujols wasn't a polished gem in the field, and it scared a lot of teams off. He could hit, it was unquestioned. It was everything else. So much so, teams passed him up 400+ plus times. Is it lucky that his hit tool, if I recall correctly or may have him mixed up with somebody else, was seen as only second to Hamilton? The five tool talent was all the rage back then(Corey Patterson), which was another reason why he feel as far as he did, plus rumors the guy was in his late 20's.

There was nothing lucky about Pujols. Nothing.

 

[theberserkfury]

Well, hitting wasn't a concern. It was his questioned age, his build, and where he was going to play. Pujols wasn't a polished gem in the field, and it scared a lot of teams off. He could hit, it was unquestioned. It was everything else. So much so, teams passed him up 400+ plus times. Is it lucky that his hit tool, if I recall correctly or may have him mixed up with somebody else, was seen as only second to Hamilton? The five tool talent was all the rage back then(Corey Patterson), which was another reason why he feel as far as he did, plus rumors the guy was in his late 20's.

There was nothing lucky about Pujols. Nothing.

No, it's lucky that any/some/all of those big questions marks (that made him get passed over hundreds of times despite his apparently obviously spectacular hit tool) didn't derail his career.

I'm not gonna pretend I know much about the circumstances of that draft and why Pujols was passed over, but in the posts you've made on the topic, it's incredibly clear that there was luck involved... I'm sure he wasn't the first guy with amazing talent and big pre-draft issues drafted and he wouldn't have been the first one to flame out... the Cardinals are a great organization (ugh) but they're not prescient.

 

[chibears55]

LMAO,,, funny every month cubs lose a few in a row and the haters appear from no where and we go through the same BS for a couple of days of back n forth on why rickets cheap, theo sucks, and cubs are losers..

 

[dabynsky]

Umm, yes they were. They used minor leaguers to trade for proven talent. Those players surely didn't pan out, but look at Jockettys resume for winning in the majors, its frighteningly good borderline great. Jocketty during his tenure in St. Louis, made the big team stronger at the expense of the minor leagues. I can recall some years where the Cards system was considered weak, but again, development of prospects under Jocketty always seemed to turn up a couple players each and every year that suddenly had value to bring over a proven commodity.

Something to think about.

Did you skip over the part where I said Jocketty was a smart guy and an underrated GM? The minors during his tenure were a weak link pretty consistently though.

 

[KBIB]

Did you skip over the part where I said Jocketty was a smart guy and an underrated GM?

No I didn't. But you also stated;

The minors during his tenure were a weak link pretty consistently though.

Yet returned proven talent, division titles, WS's?

 

[KBIB]

No, it's lucky that any/some/all of those big questions marks (that made him get passed over hundreds of times despite his apparently obviously spectacular hit tool) didn't derail his career.

Actually, the question about his age almost did.

I'm not gonna pretend I know much about the circumstances of that draft and why Pujols was passed over, but in the posts you've made on the topic, it's incredibly clear that there was luck involved... I'm sure he wasn't the first guy with amazing talent and big pre-draft issues drafted and he wouldn't have been the first one to flame out...

Fair enough.

the Cardinals are a great organization (ugh) but they're not prescient.

In the NL? Well.......

 

[czman]

Here is some info from an article about Albert Pujols and why he was drafted later:

http://www.hardballtimes.com/albert-pujols-revisiting-the-early-years/

First of all, his body wasn’t great back then. Plus, people weren’t sure how old the guy was. You assumed what he told you was true, but he wasn’t a great body, and his swing was a little long. I think what happened was, this was my first full year as a scout, and Albert didn’t make the airplane talk (from fly-in cross-checking scouts). There were a couple of scouts who liked him, who thought he could go high, but there were a lot that didn’t.

They don’t know what the hell they’re doing here in the Midwest as far as drafting. There are some idiots here that think they know the game. It is damn ridiculous—13th round. This guy’s not getting paid money that some got that haven’t even stepped on the damn (major league) field yet. I had scouts come to me the next year after the draft and tell me they didn’t turn him in (as a guy worth drafting). You got damn poor scouting, that is how you explain it. You have 100 guys who do their job and know what they’re doing and another 200 scouting each other.


I don't know if it was luck or not, but it appears that a lot of teams just did not think he was that good. Apparently people did not think he was even worth drafting. I guess it was not a sure thing that he would hit.

 

[SilenceS]

Sorry 13, point still stands. No one saw him as a once in a generation hitter in the 13 round. No one. If they did, they would have took the risk earlier. To say that wasn't luck is just being stupod


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