Malik Hooker out 4-6 months after multiple surgeries on labrum and hernia

[DJMoore_is_fat]

sounds like a perfect 1st round pace pick

Only if his leg is fucked up, too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Enasic]

I think size concerns are overblown and he has a similar frame to guys like Mariota and Rodoers who have since bulked up. He has also shown the ability to take hits and keep slinging.

I see the accuracy when his mechanics are right. I think like any young QB he will have to work on his mechanics but that's what you pay NFL coaches for.

The reading the full field thing to me is also overblown. He has gone through plenty of progressions and we don't know what the system has called for. A lot of NFL teams incorporate half field reads to get the ball out quicker so it's not much of a concern.

I see a guy with a strong arm and ample mobility that has the requisite toughness both mentally and physically to lead an NFL team. I see a guy who has elevated those around him since he stepped on the field and in turn elevated a program from another team in the ACC to National Champs.

I don't see the size/frame issues as overblown. He doesn't sport prototypical size/frame as the elite QBs of today. He also has suffered an ACL injury, and with his sub-par fundamentals and pocket passing ability, I'm concerned how he'll hold up escaping the pocket and trying to improvise. He's a bit short for the position and doesn't have a strong base and isn't a cerebral passer. I understand the college success, but it shouldn't have to be stressed enough that the college game is completely different than the pro game. He's a huge project and a huge gamble.

 

[remydat]

They actually have to sign here first. When/If we do address it in FA we can move on to other stuff. As of now there's still a gaping hole at a spot.

And you didn't answer my question. If we pick a QB at #3 are they supposed to be a better prospects than Phillip Rivers? Obviously they can win you a game more than a safety, and the inverse is also true. I did not understand the train of thought there.

Or just like how you are speculating about draft picks, I can speculate about FA and conclude that S is better addressed in FA. Your logic here that we must wait for FA to happen but we can speculate about the draft now is odd particularly when FA occurs prior to the draft. If anything it's better to wait until after FA to speculate about the draft because then you would know what needs have already been addressed in FA and which ones are left. That's more logical than claiming let's speculate about the draft now but refrain from speculating about FA until it happens.

QBs in the top 5 are so common that no I don't think they have to be better than Rivers. Since they play the most important position and contribute to the success of the team more than any other position and cost a **** ton to pay in FA, you will gamble more with them in the top 5 than other positions.

By contrast, safeties in the top 5 are so fucking rare over the course of NFL history that you better be getting an all time great to justify the pick particularly if you are passing on a chance at a QB and presumably electing to bypass getting a S for a good price in FA.

The point being there is a massive opportunity cost associated with taking a S at 3 because you are naturally giving up the chance of taking a prospect at a much more valuable position particularly at QB. There is less opportunity cost in taking a QB at 3 because since they play the most important position, the person you are giving up would have to be so much better to offset the higher positional value of a QB.

 

[remydat]

I don't see the size/frame issues as overblown. He doesn't sport prototypical size/frame as the elite QBs of today. He also has suffered an ACL injury, and with his sub-par fundamentals and pocket passing ability, I'm concerned how he'll hold up escaping the pocket and trying to improvise. He's a bit short for the position and doesn't have a strong base and isn't a cerebral passer. I understand the college success, but it shouldn't have to be stressed enough that the college game is completely different than the pro game. He's a huge project and a huge gamble.

Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, Kirk Cousins, Dak Prescott, Russel Wilson were all smallish QBs coming out of college so yes I think size/frame issues are overblown.

He also put up huge numbers since the ACL injury and will be about 3 years removed from it when he plays in the NFL

His fundamentals are not subpar. They simply need refinement. Par for the course when you spend more time playing in games than sitting and learning. Aaron Rodgers mechanics had to be completely redesigned coming out of college. Watson's fundamentals are nowhere near that.

Most of his passes came from the pocket this year so not sure why you say he is not a pocket passer. He simply has the ability to escape the pocket but he has shown he can make all the throws from the pocket as well. He didn't run nearly as much as he did as a sophomore.

He is given freedom to change plays within Clemson's system so not sure where you get the not a cerebral passer from. He made half field reads not because he wasn't a cerebral passer but because that is the offense he played in. The percentage of QBs that play as true freshman is tiny and most college offenses have half field reads. So what we know is that he was cerebral enough as a 19 year old freshman out of high school to command an offense while most guys were redshirting.

 

[ZenBear34]

Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, Kirk Cousins, Dak Prescott, Russel Wilson were all smallish QBs coming out of college so yes I think size/frame issues are overblown.

He also put up huge numbers since the ACL injury and will be about 3 years removed from it when he plays in the NFL

His fundamentals are not subpar. They simply need refinement. Par for the course when you spend more time playing in games than sitting and learning. Aaron Rodgers mechanics had to be completely redesigned coming out of college. Watson's fundamentals are nowhere near that.

Most of his passes came from the pocket this year so not sure why you say he is not a pocket passer. He simply has the ability to escape the pocket but he has shown he can make all the throws from the pocket as well. He didn't run nearly as much as he did as a sophomore.

He is given freedom to change plays within Clemson's system so not sure where you get the not a cerebral passer from. He made half field reads not because he wasn't a cerebral passer but because that is the offense he played in. The percentage of QBs that play as true freshman is tiny and most college offenses have half field reads. So what we know is that he was cerebral enough as a 19 year old freshman out of high school to command an offense while most guys were redshirting.

Watson is a mediocre passer who plays in a simple, read option defense that sucks linebackers in and creates wide open throwing lanes. He rarely has to make more then one read and then run. He makes throws he shouldn't make, he shows inconsistent accuracy. He's got a strong arm and is fairly athletic.

His upside is basically a less dynamic Tyrod Taylor. All anyone can point to is his mythical "it" factor and college success. But make no mistake, it's success born from a system that doesn't teach or utilize any of the talents needed to be a successful NFL quarterback. If you don't have great size, an elite arm or special running ability, you better be accurate and you better show great decision making. Watson has none of those.

 

[Adipost]

I read somewhere that hand size has more to do with a QB's success than height.

 

[FirstTimer]

Not sure if I would characterize Prescott as 'smallish'.

That said, I think "size" and "frame" are two completely different things. And that might not even be the most important factor. Nobody can touch Wilson because he has great pocket awareness and is so elusive. Nobody can touch Drew Brees because he is great at reading defenses and releasing the ball quickly. Jay Cutler has the size/frame/athleticism, but he takes a tremendous beating because he can't read defenses and runs himself into sacks. If Cutler weren't so athletic, his NFL career would have ended years ago.

I think "frame" is much more important than "size". I watched Sam Bradford in college, and even though he was listed at like 6-4, 230, his frame just wasn't built for the NFL. I knew he'd have durability issues. Same thing with Rex Grossman. Not only was he rather small, but also wasn't compact or athletic. I knew he'd have durability issues. And I think once a QB starts having injuries, that affects his future performance as he will be more likely to force the ball into bad situations to avoid perceived pressure.

That was always my biggest concern with Goff. Goff is listed at 6'4 205 but when you watch him play and see him he comes off as a guy who is 6'2 185. Goff's build reminds me of Tony Eason. Eason was listed as "big" (6'4 215) but his frame was a bean pole. Some guys just can't put on weight/mass as well as others. I'm more concerned with the genetics of how a guy can fill out his frame than his "size". Watson is listed at nearly the same size as Goff but they in no way look the same build wise.

 

[BearsFan51]

Will this thread be moved or won't it be moved?

 

[remydat]

Not sure if I would characterize Prescott as 'smallish'.

That said, I think "size" and "frame" are two completely different things. And that might not even be the most important factor. Nobody can touch Wilson because he has great pocket awareness and is so elusive. Nobody can touch Drew Brees because he is great at reading defenses and releasing the ball quickly. Jay Cutler has the size/frame/athleticism, but he takes a tremendous beating because he can't read defenses and runs himself into sacks. If Cutler weren't so athletic, his NFL career would have ended years ago.

I think "frame" is much more important than "size". I watched Sam Bradford in college, and even though he was listed at like 6-4, 230, his frame just wasn't built for the NFL. I knew he'd have durability issues. Same thing with Rex Grossman. Not only was he rather small, but also wasn't compact or athletic. I knew he'd have durability issues. And I think once a QB starts having injuries, that affects his future performance as he will be more likely to force the ball into bad situations to avoid perceived pressure.

Fair points. I was thinking more about his height when I listed Prescott but he's certainly stockier than Watson so frame wise I would agree with your comments. Also agreed on your points about Wilson and Brees.

 

[remydat]

Watson is a mediocre passer who plays in a simple, read option defense that sucks linebackers in and creates wide open throwing lanes. He rarely has to make more then one read and then run. He makes throws he shouldn't make, he shows inconsistent accuracy. He's got a strong arm and is fairly athletic.

His upside is basically a less dynamic Tyrod Taylor. All anyone can point to is his mythical "it" factor and college success. But make no mistake, it's success born from a system that doesn't teach or utilize any of the talents needed to be a successful NFL quarterback. If you don't have great size, an elite arm or special running ability, you better be accurate and you better show great decision making. Watson has none of those.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE_zjmSd44o

Does the above look like simple reads or passes? The problem with your analysis is that it ignores that a lot of the decisions Watson is making, he's making because he understands based on the how the defense is aligned, where he is suppose to go with the ball prior to the snap. This isn't even one of his better games as he throws 2 picks against OSU but he rarely has to make more than one read in part because he rarely fucks up with his presnap reads and in part because his WRs are open or in one one one situations.

At 9:55 in the video you can see how quickly he switches off of his initial read when he sees a guy is covered and goes to the other side of the field. So I think your analysis is bunk as the guy in the video calls it. He didn't have to do a lot of full field reads because he generally made the right decisions pre-snap and because his 1st reads were open but there are certainly times in every game even the ones people would say he played poorly in where he has to read the whole field and in those instances you can see he knows how to do that quickly and decisively.

In that Clemson offense he is given a lot of authority to change plays and he is required to figure out presnap, where he is suppose to go with the ball. He needs to improve his decision making and be a little less aggressive but his role in the NFL will allow him to do that. He was entire engine of the Clemson offense and threw a ton. His interceptions will hopefully decline as he isn't going to throw 40 or 50 times a game like he was doing in college. And he certainly shows inconsistency but once he actually can devote time to his mechanics and fundamentals with NFL coaches, I think the consistency will improve. This is a guy that has not really had the chance to really devote to mechanics because he's played so much at a young age. His focus has always been on winning games because he didn't get a red shirt year.

[video=youtube;EE_zjmSd44o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE_zjmSd44o[/video]

 

[ZenBear34]

LOL at 'less dynamic Tyrod Taylor'. Considering the extent of Watson's football career is collegiate football, to say all anyone can point to is his "college success" is equally ridiculous.

I would guess that any NFL QB would have to be accurate and make good decisions, regardless of size/arm/running.

I mean we've all watched Jay Cutler right? He's made a career out of his arm talent. Cam Newton is not an accurate passer, he gets by on physical talent. Tons of quarterbacks have gotten drafted early because of their physical talent and the hope that they can learn how to read defenses or throw accurately.

So how many great quarterbacks are undersized and possess no special traits, have shown no ability to read defense or consistently throw with accuracy? Watson is a 6'2 205 pound quarterback with a good but not great arm, bad mechanics and good athleticism who has thrown a ton of picks. Nothing elite. No trait other then "he wins big games in college." People say Winston threw a lot of picks, and that's true, but Winston possessed elite traits. He is not as good as Teddy Bridgewater was coming out of college, but is a similar prospect.

Deshone Kizer has size and arm strength. I don't think he's a very good prospect, but he has traits you can point to. Trubisky has flashed NFL accuracy, though i have many of the same concerns about Trubisky as I do Watson, i.e., playing in a stupid college offense that is designed to make quarterbacking as basic as possible. That said Trubisky is light years better then Watson as a pocket passer.

I would not be the least surprised to see Pat Mahomes, Nathan Peterman or Brad Kaaya end up being a better pro quarterback then Watson, Trubisky or Kizer.

 

[ZenBear34]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE_zjmSd44o

Does the above look like simple reads or passes? The problem with your analysis is that it ignores that a lot of the decisions Watson is making, he's making because he understands based on the how the defense is aligned, where he is suppose to go with the ball prior to the snap. This isn't even one of his better games as he throws 2 picks against OSU but he rarely has to make more than one read in part because he rarely fucks up with his presnap reads and in part because his WRs are open or in one one one situations.

At 9:55 in the video you can see how quickly he switches off of his initial read when he sees a guy is covered and goes to the other side of the field. So I think your analysis is bunk as the guy in the video calls it. He didn't have to do a lot of full field reads because he generally made the right decisions pre-snap and because his 1st reads were open but there are certainly times in every game even the ones people would say he played poorly in where he has to read the whole field and in those instances you can see he knows how to do that quickly and decisively.

In that Clemson offense he is given a lot of authority to change plays and he is required to figure out presnap, where he is suppose to go with the ball. He needs to improve his decision making and be a little less aggressive but his role in the NFL will allow him to do that. He was entire engine of the Clemson offense and threw a ton. His interceptions will hopefully decline as he isn't going to throw 40 or 50 times a game like he was doing in college. And he certainly shows inconsistency but once he actually can devote time to his mechanics and fundamentals with NFL coaches, I think the consistency will improve. This is a guy that has not really had the chance to really devote to mechanics because he's played so much at a young age. His focus has always been on winning games because he didn't get a red shirt year.

[video=youtube;EE_zjmSd44o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE_zjmSd44o[/video]

He stares at a covered receiver and then overthrows to another covered receiver. All that shows is how slowly he digests what he's seeing.

 

[remydat]

I mean we've all watched Jay Cutler right? He's made a career out of his arm talent. Cam Newton is not an accurate passer, he gets by on physical talent. Tons of quarterbacks have gotten drafted early because of their physical talent and the hope that they can learn how to read defenses or throw accurately.

So how many great quarterbacks are undersized and possess no special traits, have shown no ability to read defense or consistently throw with accuracy? Watson is a 6'2 205 pound quarterback with a good but not great arm, bad mechanics and good athleticism who has thrown a ton of picks. Nothing elite. No trait other then "he wins big games in college." People say Winston threw a lot of picks, and that's true, but Winston possessed elite traits. He is not as good as Teddy Bridgewater was coming out of college, but is a similar prospect.

Deshone Kizer has size and arm strength. I don't think he's a very good prospect, but he has traits you can point to. Trubisky has flashed NFL accuracy, though i have many of the same concerns about Trubisky as I do Watson, i.e., playing in a stupid college offense that is designed to make quarterbacking as basic as possible. That said Trubisky is light years better then Watson as a pocket passer.

I would not be the least surprised to see Pat Mahomes, Nathan Peterman or Brad Kaaya end up being a better pro quarterback then Watson, Trubisky or Kizer.

Cutler and Newton are poor comparisons because they don't have Watson's intangibles. Both those guys have ego or coachability issues. There are no such concerns with Watson. If Cutler had Watson's intangibles I think he'd have fixed his mechanics by know and would have continually worked to improve himself. Instead, he's allowed his talent to go to waste.

The people that Watson most compares to are guys that have not only some of his physical traits but also have some of his personality because it's the latter that determines whether you are going to do what it takes to get better.

If you want a comparison then go look at a guy like Russel Wilson. Say what you will about the dude but you know Wilson is going to do whatever it takes to get as much out of his talent as possible and he's going to do it with humility. That's the kind of guy Watson is. He's not Cutler and Newton because he doesn't really have their perceived levels of arrogance, stubbornness or lack of work ethic.

 

[remydat]

He stares at a covered receiver and then overthrows to another covered receiver. All that shows is how slowly he digests what he's seeing.

Lol, you are being dense know. He looks to one side of the field and then throws to a guy that is one on one on the other side of the field. Last I checked you have to actually look at a WR before deciding whether you should throw the ball.

And no he didn't overthrow the WR. As the guy in the video says, the WR gets bumped a bit downfield which is why he can't catch up to the ball. The point here is, he went to the only guy that made sense by scanning the whole field and throwing the ball to where only his WR had a shot at the ball.

Who did you expect him to throw the ball to in this situation?

 

[Hammer]

Only elite passers can be viewed as elite QBs, guys with arm power, but no accuracy (or vice versa), or run first types are gimmick QBs that can only work out if surrounded by a tons of elite talent.

For example, compare Brady and Rodgers to guys like Rothlisberger, Newton, Russell (not to mention slew of average to bad QBs).

So IMO, if Pace and Bears scouts think there is elite passing talent waiting out there to be taken, then by all means, go ahead and draft him, but dual threat QBs, or other types of crappy passers, we should avoid those QB "talents".

 

[FirstTimer]

Only elite passers can be viewed as elite QBs, guys with arm power, but no accuracy (or vice versa), or run first types are gimmick QBs that can only work out if surrounded by a tons of elite talent.

For example, compare Brady and Rodgers to guys like Rothlisberger, Newton, Russell (not to mention slew of average to bad QBs).
So IMO, if Pace and Bears scouts think there is elite passing talent waiting out there to be taken, then by all means, go ahead and draft him, but dual threat QBs, or other types of crappy passers, we should avoid those QB "talents".

What the literal ****?

 

[didshereallysaythat]

What the literal ****?

The problem is that people put too many players into the elite category. The elite is supposed to only include the very best of the best. Obviously, Big Ben, Newton, Russell, are very very good but they are not as good as Brady or Rodgers.

 

[Hammer]

What I mean to say is if there's no Peyton/Luck/Winston type of elite passing talent to be taken early in 1st round, then it would probably be wiser not to take some average arm that needs to be developed for a long period (and that still may end up worse than what we had in past), especially at #3.

If there's perennial QB talent, then you take him with Top 5 pick, but guys with ceiling to become (above) average system QBs, those guys you take in late 1st, 2nd or later rounds.


And I'm sick of Bears having mediocre or bad system QBs, I want them to acquire elite (even HOF) talent who can make players around him better, put complete franchise on his back and make it a Playoffs/SB contender (something what guys like Peyton, Brady, Rodgers did, and some still do, year after year after year).

 

[FirstTimer]

What I mean to say is if there's no Peyton/Luck/Winston type of elite passing talent to be taken early in 1st round, then it would probably be wiser not to take some average talent that needs to be developed for a long period (and that still may end up worse than what we had in past), especially at #3.

If there's perennial QB talent, then you take him with Top 5 pick, but guys with ceiling to become (above) average system QBs, those guys you take in late 1st, 2nd or later rounds.

I repeat: What the literal ****......

 

[didshereallysaythat]

What I mean to say is if there's no Peyton/Luck/Winston type of elite passing talent to be taken early in 1st round, then it would probably be wiser not to take some average talent that needs to be developed for a long period (and that still may end up worse than what we had in past), especially at #3.

If there's perennial QB talent, then you take him with Top 5 pick, but guys with ceiling to become (above) average system QBs, those guys you take in late 1st, 2nd or later rounds.

And what happens when that guaranteed QB prospect is there and he goes number 1 and we don't have the number 1 pick? Keep waiting?