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Does everyone have an entire list anywhere of everything we've lost and what we got back for it?
Ton
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[quote name="MassHavoc"]Does everyone have an entire list anywhere of everything we've lost and what we got back for it?[/quote]
GAINED
NHL/AHL PLAYERS
Niklas Hjalmarsson
John Scott
Viktor Stalberg
Jeff Taffe
PROSPECTS
Christopher DiDomenico
Marcus Kruger
Jeremy Morin
Mathis Olimb
Philippe Paradis
Ben Smith
Ivan Vishnevskiy
-------------------------------
LOST
NHL/AHL PLAYERS
Marty Reasoner
Adam Burish
Dustin Byfuglien
Ben Eager
Colin Fraser
Andrew Ladd
Brent Sopel
Kris Versteeg
PROSPECTS
Akim Aliu
Joey Crabb
Mark Cullen
Kyle Greentree
Tony Lagerstrom
Richard Petiot
Danny Richmond
Bill Sweatt
Teigan Zahn
GAINED
NHL/AHL PLAYERS
Niklas Hjalmarsson
John Scott
Viktor Stalberg
Jeff Taffe
PROSPECTS
Christopher DiDomenico
Marcus Kruger
Jeremy Morin
Mathis Olimb
Philippe Paradis
Ben Smith
Ivan Vishnevskiy
-------------------------------
LOST
NHL/AHL PLAYERS
Marty Reasoner
Adam Burish
Dustin Byfuglien
Ben Eager
Colin Fraser
Andrew Ladd
Brent Sopel
Kris Versteeg
PROSPECTS
Akim Aliu
Joey Crabb
Mark Cullen
Kyle Greentree
Tony Lagerstrom
Richard Petiot
Danny Richmond
Bill Sweatt
Teigan Zahn
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Yikes... guess you have to figure out the cap number for the salary they gained and also add the draft picks to make yourself feel a little better. I was thinking just the trades too, forgot about the couple of minor UFA moves.
Ton
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I'd say we upgraded the prospects department while downgrading our NHL stock.
The problem with this trade that I have is that we basically gained a guy who virtually has no chance for making the line-up.
Its like they are making it easy for Stalberg, Makarov, Bickell, Dowell, and Skille to make the team causing no competition at camp. Taffe sure as hell won't challenge them.
The prospects they acquired are too far away to cause any ruckus this year. I fear the low competition will gives us a flat camp since nobodies job is on the line -- those guys are gone now and all their replacements were already here in the first place -- pushing them to compete. That fear is no longer lingering, its kinda scary.
We'll have to wait for that next wave of players -- Beach, Lalonde, etc.. thats a good start but that's it for now, whereas before we had a whole handful of depth in the minors good enough for the big show. In two-three years, I'm sure we'll see that minor league depth once again as Leddy, DiDomenico, Olsen, Morin, Paradis, Phillips, and Froese are ready for time in the AHL.
The problem with this trade that I have is that we basically gained a guy who virtually has no chance for making the line-up.
Its like they are making it easy for Stalberg, Makarov, Bickell, Dowell, and Skille to make the team causing no competition at camp. Taffe sure as hell won't challenge them.
The prospects they acquired are too far away to cause any ruckus this year. I fear the low competition will gives us a flat camp since nobodies job is on the line -- those guys are gone now and all their replacements were already here in the first place -- pushing them to compete. That fear is no longer lingering, its kinda scary.
We'll have to wait for that next wave of players -- Beach, Lalonde, etc.. thats a good start but that's it for now, whereas before we had a whole handful of depth in the minors good enough for the big show. In two-three years, I'm sure we'll see that minor league depth once again as Leddy, DiDomenico, Olsen, Morin, Paradis, Phillips, and Froese are ready for time in the AHL.
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I think people tend to get too caught up on who the Hawks lost and not look at who the Hawks have left. A couple of years ago Versteeg, Buff, Ladd, Fraser were all in the same situation as Stålberg, Bickell, Dowell, Makarov etc. are in today. And the Hawks have a much better core than they did a couple of years ago and as I remember they did pretty well considering how young they were.
I think there will be competition in getting the lower spots on the team. With the Hawks loading up on young hungry guys with minimal salary there will surely be guys fighting for a spot.
I think there will be competition in getting the lower spots on the team. With the Hawks loading up on young hungry guys with minimal salary there will surely be guys fighting for a spot.
Ton
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[quote name="roshinaya"]I think people tend to get too caught up on who the Hawks lost and not look at who the Hawks have left. A couple of years ago Versteeg, Buff, Ladd, Fraser were all in the same situation as Stålberg, Bickell, Dowell, Makarov etc. are in today. And the Hawks have a much better core than they did a couple of years ago and as I remember they did pretty well considering how young they were.
I think there will be competition in getting the lower spots on the team. With the Hawks loading up on young hungry guys with minimal salary there will surely be guys fighting for a spot.[/quote]
Ladd was a proven Cup winner when he came here. Buff was highly projected to begin with, with a huge body and finally coming into his own -- the expectations were not very high back then as the Hawks were in their trial and error stage. Now there are expectations. Steeg had to fight his way to make the team, same with Fraser.
Who exactly are Skille, Dowell, Makarov, Stalberg, and Bickell competing with? How hard is it going to be for them to walk on this team? We have no other option.
I think there will be competition in getting the lower spots on the team. With the Hawks loading up on young hungry guys with minimal salary there will surely be guys fighting for a spot.[/quote]
Ladd was a proven Cup winner when he came here. Buff was highly projected to begin with, with a huge body and finally coming into his own -- the expectations were not very high back then as the Hawks were in their trial and error stage. Now there are expectations. Steeg had to fight his way to make the team, same with Fraser.
Who exactly are Skille, Dowell, Makarov, Stalberg, and Bickell competing with? How hard is it going to be for them to walk on this team? We have no other option.
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I tend to agree that the NHL stock went down and the Farm went up, but I don't quite agree that the positions are locked. I look at the salaries and the contracts and they are all pretty even now for the prospects, which means anyone in camp can now be afforded, which didn't use to be the case. I would expect the long shots to make camp very interesting because I feel like it's a toss up for anyone to make the team with no real cap restrictions since they are all making about the same at under 1mil. If someone shines at the camp, well then one of those coasters could be out.
EDIT, seem rosh beat me to it a bit.
EDIT, seem rosh beat me to it a bit.
Ton
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Realistically, who is going to challenge for a roster spot?
Makarov, Skille, Bickell, Dowell, and Stalberg (which already fills the roster).
Others are DiDomenico, Kruger, Brophey, Smith, Paradis, and Morin -- none of which are ready or even make an impact at camp. One guy that I can see stirring things up is Klinkhammer - one guy.
At D you have Lalonde, Vishnevskiy, Connelly... after that nobody else has a chance. I have a hard time believing Connelly will make the team anyway but its possible and he will compete which is a good factor... but if you only have 2-3 players at camp that can compete... thats scary. Other D-men include D-P, Stanton, Carlsson, Cullimore. There might be competition at D with three guys fighting for one spot, I like that, but at Forward it certainly is lacking (I think realistically at D Lalonde probably won't make it to the very end and I'm not sure Connelly or Vishnevskiy are 100% ready).
Past years we had boatloads of players competing, and it would come to the harshest decisions. Remember one year it was Makarov, Skille, Versteeg at the end fighting for one spot... but many were cut before them that were also worthy (the Bickells and Dowells of camp). This year there might be one or two players pushing. Not a handful, its going to take a few years to get back to that.
Makarov, Skille, Bickell, Dowell, and Stalberg (which already fills the roster).
Others are DiDomenico, Kruger, Brophey, Smith, Paradis, and Morin -- none of which are ready or even make an impact at camp. One guy that I can see stirring things up is Klinkhammer - one guy.
At D you have Lalonde, Vishnevskiy, Connelly... after that nobody else has a chance. I have a hard time believing Connelly will make the team anyway but its possible and he will compete which is a good factor... but if you only have 2-3 players at camp that can compete... thats scary. Other D-men include D-P, Stanton, Carlsson, Cullimore. There might be competition at D with three guys fighting for one spot, I like that, but at Forward it certainly is lacking (I think realistically at D Lalonde probably won't make it to the very end and I'm not sure Connelly or Vishnevskiy are 100% ready).
Past years we had boatloads of players competing, and it would come to the harshest decisions. Remember one year it was Makarov, Skille, Versteeg at the end fighting for one spot... but many were cut before them that were also worthy (the Bickells and Dowells of camp). This year there might be one or two players pushing. Not a handful, its going to take a few years to get back to that.
PatrickSharpRules
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[quote name="Ton"]
Ladd was a proven Cup winner when he came here. Buff was highly projected to begin with, with a huge body and finally coming into his own -- the expectations were not very high back then as the Hawks were in their trial and error stage. Now there are expectations. Steeg had to fight his way to make the team, same with Fraser.
Who exactly are Skille, Dowell, Makarov, Stalberg, and Bickell competing with? How hard is it going to be for them to walk on this team? We have no other option.[/quote]
Come on, Ladd didn't even play 30 games that year. He played the playoffs, but it was his rookie year and he had a limited ass role. He and Steeg are gonna be missed the most IMO. But I agree with roshinaya that these guys are in a very similar situation as those who left were a few years ago.
Ladd was a proven Cup winner when he came here. Buff was highly projected to begin with, with a huge body and finally coming into his own -- the expectations were not very high back then as the Hawks were in their trial and error stage. Now there are expectations. Steeg had to fight his way to make the team, same with Fraser.
Who exactly are Skille, Dowell, Makarov, Stalberg, and Bickell competing with? How hard is it going to be for them to walk on this team? We have no other option.[/quote]
Come on, Ladd didn't even play 30 games that year. He played the playoffs, but it was his rookie year and he had a limited ass role. He and Steeg are gonna be missed the most IMO. But I agree with roshinaya that these guys are in a very similar situation as those who left were a few years ago.
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[quote name="Ton"]
Ladd was a proven Cup winner when he came here. Buff was highly projected to begin with, with a huge body and finally coming into his own -- the expectations were not very high back then as the Hawks were in their trial and error stage. Now there are expectations. Steeg had to fight his way to make the team, same with Fraser.
Who exactly are Skille, Dowell, Makarov, Stalberg, and Bickell competing with? How hard is it going to be for them to walk on this team? We have no other option.[/quote]
7th round pick, 50 lbs overweight and out of shape, is highly projected? Nothing against Buff but when he was picked he was a project.
Ladd was a proven Cup winner when he came here. Buff was highly projected to begin with, with a huge body and finally coming into his own -- the expectations were not very high back then as the Hawks were in their trial and error stage. Now there are expectations. Steeg had to fight his way to make the team, same with Fraser.
Who exactly are Skille, Dowell, Makarov, Stalberg, and Bickell competing with? How hard is it going to be for them to walk on this team? We have no other option.[/quote]
7th round pick, 50 lbs overweight and out of shape, is highly projected? Nothing against Buff but when he was picked he was a project.
E Runs
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[quote name="winos5"]
7th round pick, 50 lbs overweight and out of shape, is highly projected? Nothing against Buff but when he was picked he was a project.[/quote]
Yeah I was about to mention the same thing.
Where was the competition for spots last season?
7th round pick, 50 lbs overweight and out of shape, is highly projected? Nothing against Buff but when he was picked he was a project.[/quote]
Yeah I was about to mention the same thing.
Where was the competition for spots last season?
canucklehead
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[quote name="winos5"]
7th round pick, 50 lbs overweight and out of shape, is highly projected? Nothing against Buff but when he was picked he was a project.[/quote]
that's putting it lightly.
7th round pick, 50 lbs overweight and out of shape, is highly projected? Nothing against Buff but when he was picked he was a project.[/quote]
that's putting it lightly.
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I think most importantly these guys are going to be competing against each other honestly. I mean for fucks sake we have a spot on all lines open, and whoever plays the best could end up on the top line for the best team in the NHL all of a sudden.
Guest
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[quote name="E Runs"]
Yeah I was about to mention the same thing.
Where was the competition for spots last season?[/quote]
There was none.
And actually the only real competition, Niemi Vs Crawford, was decided by CAP SPACE.
All of those guys Ladd, Buff, Versteeg were questions on production last year. And even more so the year before. Ladd was no stud coming from Carolina or they wouldn't have traded him.
Now all grew into what they are, but that say more to what the NEW players can do. Especially knowing the TALENT they are surrounded by with the CORE!
Yeah I was about to mention the same thing.
Where was the competition for spots last season?[/quote]
There was none.
And actually the only real competition, Niemi Vs Crawford, was decided by CAP SPACE.
All of those guys Ladd, Buff, Versteeg were questions on production last year. And even more so the year before. Ladd was no stud coming from Carolina or they wouldn't have traded him.
Now all grew into what they are, but that say more to what the NEW players can do. Especially knowing the TALENT they are surrounded by with the CORE!
Ton
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The competition were guys like Dowell, Bickell, Skille and co that made sure everyone on the Hawks busted their ass or their spots would be taken.
I hope they don't get too comfortable, because if they do it won't matter -- there isn't anyone to take their spots anyway.
Although Buff and Steeg were questions there is no denying that everyone knew about their potential. Ladd won a Cup, that means more than anything Bickell, Dowell, or Skille have accomplished.
Can these guys succeed? I believe it, I'm sure they will all be good NHLers, but the fact is we have zero depth in the system and that's going to take a few years to get back. Sucks but I hope these guys don't get too comfortable.
I'm not even arguing that Skille, Bickell, Stalberg, Makarov, and Dowell will be able to produce... I'm just a bit worried that there is no one pushing for their spots -- it hasn't been like this for years now. Is it not obvious to see that? Its a bunch of rookies that are guaranteed spots, there is no competition for them.
I hope they don't get too comfortable, because if they do it won't matter -- there isn't anyone to take their spots anyway.
Although Buff and Steeg were questions there is no denying that everyone knew about their potential. Ladd won a Cup, that means more than anything Bickell, Dowell, or Skille have accomplished.
Can these guys succeed? I believe it, I'm sure they will all be good NHLers, but the fact is we have zero depth in the system and that's going to take a few years to get back. Sucks but I hope these guys don't get too comfortable.
I'm not even arguing that Skille, Bickell, Stalberg, Makarov, and Dowell will be able to produce... I'm just a bit worried that there is no one pushing for their spots -- it hasn't been like this for years now. Is it not obvious to see that? Its a bunch of rookies that are guaranteed spots, there is no competition for them.
PatrickShart
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I posted this in another thread...but I think its worth pointing out again. 2 years ago - the Hawks made it to the conference finals - and that team had more question marks. And here were the players that came up from Rockford going into the season and what they did coming into the NHL -
07-08 Hogs - (98pts)
Brouwer - 75gms - 35g -19a - 54pts
Vrsteeg - 56gms - 18g - 31a - 49pts
Fraser - 75gms - 17g - 24a - 41pts
Hjarlmsn - 47gms - 4g - 9a - 13pts - -8
Hendry - 45gms - 3g - 4a - 7pts - -3
And here is the "replacement" group possibly -
09-10 Hogs (94pts) -
Skille - 63gms - 23g - 26a - 49pts
Sthbrg - 39gms -12g - 21a -33pts (w/marlies)
Bickell - 65gms - 16g - 15a - 31pts
Dowell - 78gms - 7g - 16a - 23pts
Connely - 78gms - 4g -31a -35pts - +4
Vishnvski - 79gms - 10g - 26a - 36pts - +8 (w/AHL stars, wolves)
This group may be better - here was the 08/09 lineup that lost to DET in conf finals- (featured 3 cup winners..avg age - 25.85)
Sharp - Toews - Kane
Ladd - Bolland - Havlat
Buff - Pahlson - Versteeg
Eager - Burish - Brouwer
Keith - Seabrook
Hjar - Campbell
Barker - Walker
Khabibuin/Huet
Possible 10/11 lineup - (13 cup winners - Kopecky has 2, and 1 Norris/Conn Smythe winner, avg age - 25.05 yrs old)
Makarov - Toews - Hossa
Stahlberg - Sharp - Kane
Kopecky - Bolland - Brouwer
Bickell - Dowell - Skille
Keith - Seabrook
Hjarl - Campbell
Connely - Vishnevskiy - Scott
Niemi
This team, IMO, will be better than the team that lost in the conference finals to DET, and the same age (well, a bit younger) and much more experience.
Drop the puck.
07-08 Hogs - (98pts)
Brouwer - 75gms - 35g -19a - 54pts
Vrsteeg - 56gms - 18g - 31a - 49pts
Fraser - 75gms - 17g - 24a - 41pts
Hjarlmsn - 47gms - 4g - 9a - 13pts - -8
Hendry - 45gms - 3g - 4a - 7pts - -3
And here is the "replacement" group possibly -
09-10 Hogs (94pts) -
Skille - 63gms - 23g - 26a - 49pts
Sthbrg - 39gms -12g - 21a -33pts (w/marlies)
Bickell - 65gms - 16g - 15a - 31pts
Dowell - 78gms - 7g - 16a - 23pts
Connely - 78gms - 4g -31a -35pts - +4
Vishnvski - 79gms - 10g - 26a - 36pts - +8 (w/AHL stars, wolves)
This group may be better - here was the 08/09 lineup that lost to DET in conf finals- (featured 3 cup winners..avg age - 25.85)
Sharp - Toews - Kane
Ladd - Bolland - Havlat
Buff - Pahlson - Versteeg
Eager - Burish - Brouwer
Keith - Seabrook
Hjar - Campbell
Barker - Walker
Khabibuin/Huet
Possible 10/11 lineup - (13 cup winners - Kopecky has 2, and 1 Norris/Conn Smythe winner, avg age - 25.05 yrs old)
Makarov - Toews - Hossa
Stahlberg - Sharp - Kane
Kopecky - Bolland - Brouwer
Bickell - Dowell - Skille
Keith - Seabrook
Hjarl - Campbell
Connely - Vishnevskiy - Scott
Niemi
This team, IMO, will be better than the team that lost in the conference finals to DET, and the same age (well, a bit younger) and much more experience.
Drop the puck.
E Runs
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[quote name="Ton"]The competition were guys like Dowell, Bickell, Skille and co that made sure everyone on the Hawks busted their ass or their spots would be taken.
[/quote]
Whose spots exactly were in jepordy last camp? Fraser? Sorry not buying it.
98% of last year's roster was set in stone.
[/quote]
Whose spots exactly were in jepordy last camp? Fraser? Sorry not buying it.
98% of last year's roster was set in stone.
Ton
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[quote name="E Runs"]
Whose spots exactly were in jepordy last camp? Fraser? Sorry not buying it.[/quote]
Well if you can't understand the simple logic I am presenting I can't help you.
The Hawks had NHL ready forwards in the system that could take over at any point, they no longer have that option anymore. Obviously winning the cup is a big part in this but I am merely pointing out that it will take a few years to return the depth lost -- not in the line-up but in the minors.
I just hope the guys don't become too comfortable, because there is no one else to turn to. I didn't say anyone's spot was in jeopardy, but they did have enough depth to keep everyone on their toes. Easily.
Whose spots exactly were in jepordy last camp? Fraser? Sorry not buying it.[/quote]
Well if you can't understand the simple logic I am presenting I can't help you.
The Hawks had NHL ready forwards in the system that could take over at any point, they no longer have that option anymore. Obviously winning the cup is a big part in this but I am merely pointing out that it will take a few years to return the depth lost -- not in the line-up but in the minors.
I just hope the guys don't become too comfortable, because there is no one else to turn to. I didn't say anyone's spot was in jeopardy, but they did have enough depth to keep everyone on their toes. Easily.
PatrickShart
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That could be said about any team "players getting comfortable"...
Who got called up this past season...to "push" the players?
Dowell, Skille, Bickell .....and no Dmen, and Crawford as a third goalie.
Going into next season, they could have -
Forwards - Beach, Taffe, Olimb, Didomenchio, Brophy
Dmen - Lalonde, possibly Connely/Vishnevkiy if Hendry is signed, Danis-Pepin
Goalie - Crawford or Toivenen
Seems to me the depth could be as solid in Rockford, and I expect the guys coming up to be hungry after experiencing the cup run - especially based on the players that just won.
Who got called up this past season...to "push" the players?
Dowell, Skille, Bickell .....and no Dmen, and Crawford as a third goalie.
Going into next season, they could have -
Forwards - Beach, Taffe, Olimb, Didomenchio, Brophy
Dmen - Lalonde, possibly Connely/Vishnevkiy if Hendry is signed, Danis-Pepin
Goalie - Crawford or Toivenen
Seems to me the depth could be as solid in Rockford, and I expect the guys coming up to be hungry after experiencing the cup run - especially based on the players that just won.
Guest
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[quote name="Ton"]The competition were guys like Dowell, Bickell, Skille and co that made sure everyone on the Hawks busted their ass or their spots would be taken.
I hope they don't get too comfortable, because if they do it won't matter -- there isn't anyone to take their spots anyway.
Although Buff and Steeg were questions there is no denying that everyone knew about their potential. Ladd won a Cup, that means more than anything Bickell, Dowell, or Skille have accomplished.
Can these guys succeed? I believe it, I'm sure they will all be good NHLers, but the fact is we have zero depth in the system and that's going to take a few years to get back. Sucks but I hope these guys don't get too comfortable.
I'm not even arguing that Skille, Bickell, Stalberg, Makarov, and Dowell will be able to produce... I'm just a bit worried that there is no one pushing for their spots -- it hasn't been like this for years now. Is it not obvious to see that? Its a bunch of rookies that are guaranteed spots, there is no competition for them.[/quote]
There was really no competition last year. They knew the starting roster almost from the start. Most of Camp other than Niemi and Crawford knew where they were starting the season. It's pretty obvious. This year they actually have a chance to make the team. There aren't Vets here that automatically take the spot. So no matter who you are at camp, THIS year, you have a shot at making the team.
I would think just by that the "kids" would skate even Harder during this years training camp.
I hope they don't get too comfortable, because if they do it won't matter -- there isn't anyone to take their spots anyway.
Although Buff and Steeg were questions there is no denying that everyone knew about their potential. Ladd won a Cup, that means more than anything Bickell, Dowell, or Skille have accomplished.
Can these guys succeed? I believe it, I'm sure they will all be good NHLers, but the fact is we have zero depth in the system and that's going to take a few years to get back. Sucks but I hope these guys don't get too comfortable.
I'm not even arguing that Skille, Bickell, Stalberg, Makarov, and Dowell will be able to produce... I'm just a bit worried that there is no one pushing for their spots -- it hasn't been like this for years now. Is it not obvious to see that? Its a bunch of rookies that are guaranteed spots, there is no competition for them.[/quote]
There was really no competition last year. They knew the starting roster almost from the start. Most of Camp other than Niemi and Crawford knew where they were starting the season. It's pretty obvious. This year they actually have a chance to make the team. There aren't Vets here that automatically take the spot. So no matter who you are at camp, THIS year, you have a shot at making the team.
I would think just by that the "kids" would skate even Harder during this years training camp.
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