badboy
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2ndcitydiehard wrote:
Who's that?
Who's that?
charity stripe
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AirP wrote:
Do you realize the thing you don't like about Gordon, Hinrich does? Have you seen Hinrich on fast breaks before, he takes pull up jumpers just like Gordon, and he usually misses them. Or he goes in for a missed layup. Hinrich overdribbles and pounds the ball quite a bit when he was on the floor with Rose. Hinrich being a better fit next to Rose for those reasons doesn't make sense to me.
houheffna wrote:
If you are talking about the direction of the team, you have to take into consideration player salaries, otherwise the discussion is not a realistic one.
houheffna wrote:
Iguodala is not a franchise player, or if he is then he is not a very good one. He is best suited to be a number 2 or number 3 option on a title team. He does not score enough to be a true franchise player like Kobe or Lebron or Wade.
houheffna wrote:
Gordon is not a franchise player, but he does play solid defense. The man he was guarding did not torch Gordon the defender this season. Don't point to gamae 6 where Allen had 51 because Gordon was playing on a torn hamstring, plus Allen was torching Hinrich just as much. During the season the Wade was the only player who torched Gordon when he had 48 in the double OT game. That only happend one time. So he is not a defensive liablity. I don't blame you for thinking that though, as you get your information for Boers and Bernstein and Neil Funk.
houheffna wrote:
McGrady this season averaged 16 points on 39% shooting. Gordon's numbers were much better than that. McGrady hasn't had a single healthy season his entire career spanning 12 years. In contrast, Gordon has had only 1 season where he missed time, and 4 healthy seasons.
houheffna wrote:
Redd does not play defense, you would know this if you watch him. All star selection is often about reputation, not reality. You could argue that Michael Redd of a few years ago was better than this year's Gordon. But we are talking about right now, and right now injured players like mcgrady and Redd are not better players than Gordon who produces on the court.
Olymptic team selection is not an argument for why a player is better.
houheffna wrote:
At this stage in his career, Iverson is a cancer to his team. He refused to come off the bench for the betterment of the team, creating a bad sitation for the organization. Gordon is a professional who does what the coaches and management asks of him. Gordon is a team player. Gordon is also a much more efficient scorer than Iverson, a better shooter, a more clutch player, and I would argue a better defender.
houheffna wrote:
Efficieny takes into account 2 point field goal attempts & makes, 3 point field goal attempts & makes, and free throw attempts & makes. High efficiency is valuable because you get more point production is fewer shots and possessions.
Michael Redd only played 33 games this year, shot worse from 3, worse from free throw, didn't pass the ball as much, and rebounding the ball worse than Ben Gordon.
Ralphb07 wrote:
The Bulls can sign Gordon to any contract figure, then worry about trading someone to get under the tax at February's deadline. They only have to pay the tax if they are over the threshold at 6/30/2010.
Do you realize the thing you don't like about Gordon, Hinrich does? Have you seen Hinrich on fast breaks before, he takes pull up jumpers just like Gordon, and he usually misses them. Or he goes in for a missed layup. Hinrich overdribbles and pounds the ball quite a bit when he was on the floor with Rose. Hinrich being a better fit next to Rose for those reasons doesn't make sense to me.
houheffna wrote:
If you are talking about the direction of the team, you have to take into consideration player salaries, otherwise the discussion is not a realistic one.
houheffna wrote:
Iguodala is not a franchise player, or if he is then he is not a very good one. He is best suited to be a number 2 or number 3 option on a title team. He does not score enough to be a true franchise player like Kobe or Lebron or Wade.
houheffna wrote:
Gordon is not a franchise player, but he does play solid defense. The man he was guarding did not torch Gordon the defender this season. Don't point to gamae 6 where Allen had 51 because Gordon was playing on a torn hamstring, plus Allen was torching Hinrich just as much. During the season the Wade was the only player who torched Gordon when he had 48 in the double OT game. That only happend one time. So he is not a defensive liablity. I don't blame you for thinking that though, as you get your information for Boers and Bernstein and Neil Funk.
houheffna wrote:
McGrady this season averaged 16 points on 39% shooting. Gordon's numbers were much better than that. McGrady hasn't had a single healthy season his entire career spanning 12 years. In contrast, Gordon has had only 1 season where he missed time, and 4 healthy seasons.
houheffna wrote:
Redd does not play defense, you would know this if you watch him. All star selection is often about reputation, not reality. You could argue that Michael Redd of a few years ago was better than this year's Gordon. But we are talking about right now, and right now injured players like mcgrady and Redd are not better players than Gordon who produces on the court.
Olymptic team selection is not an argument for why a player is better.
houheffna wrote:
At this stage in his career, Iverson is a cancer to his team. He refused to come off the bench for the betterment of the team, creating a bad sitation for the organization. Gordon is a professional who does what the coaches and management asks of him. Gordon is a team player. Gordon is also a much more efficient scorer than Iverson, a better shooter, a more clutch player, and I would argue a better defender.
houheffna wrote:
Efficieny takes into account 2 point field goal attempts & makes, 3 point field goal attempts & makes, and free throw attempts & makes. High efficiency is valuable because you get more point production is fewer shots and possessions.
Michael Redd only played 33 games this year, shot worse from 3, worse from free throw, didn't pass the ball as much, and rebounding the ball worse than Ben Gordon.
Ralphb07 wrote:
The Bulls can sign Gordon to any contract figure, then worry about trading someone to get under the tax at February's deadline. They only have to pay the tax if they are over the threshold at 6/30/2010.
dougthonus
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I agree that the odds aren't good.
However, when discussing whether we make a trade or not or should bring him back, I think that's a valid interesting point of discussion. In fact, I'd say it's probably THE most interesting thing to happen this off season (or not happen). However, I agree with your stance that it's unlikely Gordon remains a Bull.
dougthonus
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houheffna wrote:
Peja was the key to a team that deserved to be NBA champions one year, but got screwed by the refs. They called a foul on Mike Bibby for connecting with Kobe's elbow in a game that Donaghy reffed and many people feel was rigged. Had that game gone the other way, the Kings would have been in the finals as extraordinarily heavy favorites and likely would have won.
It's interesting how much someone's legacy changes based on a few calls in that series. The Lakers are extraordinarily lucky to have won those 3 titles as they basically were given one by the refs, and they got one because of one of the greatest collapses in history with Portland melting down.
How different would the legacy of Chris Webber, Peja, Bibby etc be if they had won that title or Pippen if he had gotten one with the Blazers.
I realize I'm drifting here, but to put it bluntly, yes, there is a period where I would have called Peja a great scorer. I guess it depends on what you consider "great".
He (or Gordon for that matter) would be in the top 5% of scorers in the NBA when looking at volume and efficiency. I'd consider that great. I would maybe consider guys like Jordan, Kobe, LeBron (etc) elite or some status ahead of great.
Granted, it's a matter of semantics, we can objectively decide how good a scorer Gordon is / Peja was based on their efficiency and volume. Whether we term that great, good, elite, awesome, or whatever isn't really relevant if the words mean different things to us.
Peja was the key to a team that deserved to be NBA champions one year, but got screwed by the refs. They called a foul on Mike Bibby for connecting with Kobe's elbow in a game that Donaghy reffed and many people feel was rigged. Had that game gone the other way, the Kings would have been in the finals as extraordinarily heavy favorites and likely would have won.
It's interesting how much someone's legacy changes based on a few calls in that series. The Lakers are extraordinarily lucky to have won those 3 titles as they basically were given one by the refs, and they got one because of one of the greatest collapses in history with Portland melting down.
How different would the legacy of Chris Webber, Peja, Bibby etc be if they had won that title or Pippen if he had gotten one with the Blazers.
I realize I'm drifting here, but to put it bluntly, yes, there is a period where I would have called Peja a great scorer. I guess it depends on what you consider "great".
He (or Gordon for that matter) would be in the top 5% of scorers in the NBA when looking at volume and efficiency. I'd consider that great. I would maybe consider guys like Jordan, Kobe, LeBron (etc) elite or some status ahead of great.
Granted, it's a matter of semantics, we can objectively decide how good a scorer Gordon is / Peja was based on their efficiency and volume. Whether we term that great, good, elite, awesome, or whatever isn't really relevant if the words mean different things to us.
dougthonus
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AirP wrote:
Ray Allen would be the one guy I could think of as well. However, I disagree about your usage perspective. I think Rose needs someone who can be more assertive at times and take over. I don't think he's ready for it or has the mentality for it. I also think that the one-on-oneness that everyone complains about is largely a symptom of the offense that VDN put in place.
Ray Allen would be the one guy I could think of as well. However, I disagree about your usage perspective. I think Rose needs someone who can be more assertive at times and take over. I don't think he's ready for it or has the mentality for it. I also think that the one-on-oneness that everyone complains about is largely a symptom of the offense that VDN put in place.
Ralphb07
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dougthonus wrote:
It is a good topic... I guess I'm just not trying to get so into it so much but because until we free up money it's not happening.... So IMO it's pointless to really break it down and get into it.
It is a good topic... I guess I'm just not trying to get so into it so much but because until we free up money it's not happening.... So IMO it's pointless to really break it down and get into it.
Ralphb07
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The Bulls won't take that chance and the closer to the deadline the tougher a deal to save money will happen.
dougthonus
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I hear you. It's also really a played out topic. It's been beaten to death all season as well.
At the same time what else is there to discuss in some ways.
AirP
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dougthonus wrote:
Gordon's been a quick trigger and one on one player his whole career, it's not a product of Vinnie's offense although Vinnie's offense doesn't help things.
It's the one on one mentality that KILLS this team, they start to dig a hole then it seems there are too many people on the team who try to go one on one so not one person can really get into a grove offensivly in those situations. You'll see Gordon miss one or 2, then Rose will miss one or 2, then Salmons or Hughes when he was here, then Tyrus or Hinrich, then whoever instead of just keep going to 1 or 2 scorers and letting them warm up and get on track.
This team just needs to define it's KEY players on the roster and get the role players around them to make it more fluid. I'd rather take a chance on Rose or Gordon "warming up" then keep letting other players put up shots hoping someone will hit.
Gordon's been a quick trigger and one on one player his whole career, it's not a product of Vinnie's offense although Vinnie's offense doesn't help things.
It's the one on one mentality that KILLS this team, they start to dig a hole then it seems there are too many people on the team who try to go one on one so not one person can really get into a grove offensivly in those situations. You'll see Gordon miss one or 2, then Rose will miss one or 2, then Salmons or Hughes when he was here, then Tyrus or Hinrich, then whoever instead of just keep going to 1 or 2 scorers and letting them warm up and get on track.
This team just needs to define it's KEY players on the roster and get the role players around them to make it more fluid. I'd rather take a chance on Rose or Gordon "warming up" then keep letting other players put up shots hoping someone will hit.
badboy
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dougthonus wrote:
He's been doing that since he's been in the league don't blame that on VDN. With Skiles and with Boylan.
However it is the coaches job to limit how often it happens as well as the PG.
He's been doing that since he's been in the league don't blame that on VDN. With Skiles and with Boylan.
However it is the coaches job to limit how often it happens as well as the PG.
Hendu0520
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AirP wrote:
Good sum up, Gordon is a one on one player who once he starts a move is not going to pass. The entire team gets the same way, but I think when that happens Gordon is leading the way and it is contageous, like yawning. He can have more assists and doesn't shoot a lot of shots. But towards the end of the game, he isn't passing.
Doug, I know Gordon has more assists and better numbers than Ray Allen in almost every category this year, but like I said at the end of the game Allen will pass if he is triple teamed, Gordon will never pass at the end of a quarter, shot clock, or game even if triple teamed. I'm fine with that because he makes some of them, just saying I understand when people say he is a ball hog, it would be natural after watching a game.
However, unless we can bring in someone better, which we can't because of money. As Doug pointed out anyone better or close to him would make even more money. So Gordon is the best scorer we have and the best scorer for the money, sounds like the perfect fit right now. I would not want a contract longer than 3 yrs though, Maybe if JR gave him a little bit more per year he would exept a 2 or 3 yr deal.
Good sum up, Gordon is a one on one player who once he starts a move is not going to pass. The entire team gets the same way, but I think when that happens Gordon is leading the way and it is contageous, like yawning. He can have more assists and doesn't shoot a lot of shots. But towards the end of the game, he isn't passing.
Doug, I know Gordon has more assists and better numbers than Ray Allen in almost every category this year, but like I said at the end of the game Allen will pass if he is triple teamed, Gordon will never pass at the end of a quarter, shot clock, or game even if triple teamed. I'm fine with that because he makes some of them, just saying I understand when people say he is a ball hog, it would be natural after watching a game.
However, unless we can bring in someone better, which we can't because of money. As Doug pointed out anyone better or close to him would make even more money. So Gordon is the best scorer we have and the best scorer for the money, sounds like the perfect fit right now. I would not want a contract longer than 3 yrs though, Maybe if JR gave him a little bit more per year he would exept a 2 or 3 yr deal.
houheffna
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Re:McGraw: Decent chance the Bulls will re-sign Be
I mentioned Boers and Bernstein once, and all of a sudden I repeat what they say, because I agree with them? No, I think I have made a valid argument. An argument formed from me watching the games, forming my own opinion, and hearing others who agree. If KC Johnson agreed, I might have brought his name up. Brian Hanley agrees with me if I am not mistaken. So again, I have nothing to do with you guys mad on for radio guys but they are paid to give an opinion and people listen. I happen to agree on this one thing.
Gordon stops momentum when he stops the offensive flow so that he can go one on one and get his shot off over three people. He hits amazing shots, so did Meadowlark Lemon. That does not mean I would put him next to the premier performers of the league. I have made comparisons to players I have watched in the past, Andrew Toney, World B. Free, players like that who were uniquely skilled though short in stature. I am a person who makes my own decisions and my own arguments.
I mentioned Boers and Bernstein once, and all of a sudden I repeat what they say, because I agree with them? No, I think I have made a valid argument. An argument formed from me watching the games, forming my own opinion, and hearing others who agree. If KC Johnson agreed, I might have brought his name up. Brian Hanley agrees with me if I am not mistaken. So again, I have nothing to do with you guys mad on for radio guys but they are paid to give an opinion and people listen. I happen to agree on this one thing.
Gordon stops momentum when he stops the offensive flow so that he can go one on one and get his shot off over three people. He hits amazing shots, so did Meadowlark Lemon. That does not mean I would put him next to the premier performers of the league. I have made comparisons to players I have watched in the past, Andrew Toney, World B. Free, players like that who were uniquely skilled though short in stature. I am a person who makes my own decisions and my own arguments.
??? ??????
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Re:McGraw: Decent chance the Bulls will re-sign Be
The Gordon is a quick trigger to the team's detriment is a load of crock. There simply aren't many fast break scorers in the NBA. When there isn't a big man down there, Gordon has a knack for scoring. He can take advantage of unset defenses better than most players in the league. There was a reason why he was one of the NBA's top fastbreak scorers this year.
What did Gordon do when taking shots in the first 10 seconds of the shotclock? Shoot 56.6 eFG%. By far higher than any other time in the shotclock for him. The first 10 seconds of the shotclock are generally the best scoring part for most of our perimeter players.
There is no justified reason to take that out of Gordon's game. That will just lead to losses.
The Gordon is a quick trigger to the team's detriment is a load of crock. There simply aren't many fast break scorers in the NBA. When there isn't a big man down there, Gordon has a knack for scoring. He can take advantage of unset defenses better than most players in the league. There was a reason why he was one of the NBA's top fastbreak scorers this year.
What did Gordon do when taking shots in the first 10 seconds of the shotclock? Shoot 56.6 eFG%. By far higher than any other time in the shotclock for him. The first 10 seconds of the shotclock are generally the best scoring part for most of our perimeter players.
There is no justified reason to take that out of Gordon's game. That will just lead to losses.
Hendu0520
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Re:McGraw: Decent chance the Bulls will re-sign Be
I have to agree with Hef on this one, people don't listen to BG criticizm and hear one thing and they bring out the "Drone" talk or the radio guys. I don't know what those radio guys say but they must have done something at some time to these people cause if you agree with one thing they say you get hammered.
I don't even know who these radio guys are and I said something once and they said I was listening to some Waddle and Boers guy, I don't even know who those guys are.
I get what Hef is saying and it is absolutely true, SOMETIMES Gordon kills the offense by missing a bad shot early. And when he makes a move he NEVER passes. Doesn't mean we have to get rid of him, that is just one criticism of Ben's game.
I have to agree with Hef on this one, people don't listen to BG criticizm and hear one thing and they bring out the "Drone" talk or the radio guys. I don't know what those radio guys say but they must have done something at some time to these people cause if you agree with one thing they say you get hammered.
I don't even know who these radio guys are and I said something once and they said I was listening to some Waddle and Boers guy, I don't even know who those guys are.
I get what Hef is saying and it is absolutely true, SOMETIMES Gordon kills the offense by missing a bad shot early. And when he makes a move he NEVER passes. Doesn't mean we have to get rid of him, that is just one criticism of Ben's game.
dougthonus
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Re:McGraw: Decent chance the Bulls will re-sign Be
Sometimes he does, but I think what you are missing is that sometimes every good scorer in the NBA does. Do you think Boston fans complain when Paul Pierce has an iso or do Atlanta fans complain when Joe Johnson gets one?
Guys who are 20 point scorers probably make some selfish plays, some iso plays, some ball hogging plays from time to time. If they score 20 a night with Gordon's efficiency then they are great scorers overall, and you give them that leeway.
Much like I said there isn't a guy who scores more than Gordon on fewer shots, there also isn't a guy who scores as much as he does without occasionally being a ball stopper and taking some isolation possessions. That's something that basically all great scorers do. What #1 scorer on his team doesn't stop the ball at times?
Whether this is a problem or not depends on your view of how frequently it happens and the results of when it happens. Personally, I think the results are better than people credit and the frequency is less than his detractors believe. I agree that at some point this becomes a big issue, but I don't think it's a major one with Gordon. I don't think it's one you'd deal with less with other 20 ppg scorers.
Sometimes he does, but I think what you are missing is that sometimes every good scorer in the NBA does. Do you think Boston fans complain when Paul Pierce has an iso or do Atlanta fans complain when Joe Johnson gets one?
Guys who are 20 point scorers probably make some selfish plays, some iso plays, some ball hogging plays from time to time. If they score 20 a night with Gordon's efficiency then they are great scorers overall, and you give them that leeway.
Much like I said there isn't a guy who scores more than Gordon on fewer shots, there also isn't a guy who scores as much as he does without occasionally being a ball stopper and taking some isolation possessions. That's something that basically all great scorers do. What #1 scorer on his team doesn't stop the ball at times?
Whether this is a problem or not depends on your view of how frequently it happens and the results of when it happens. Personally, I think the results are better than people credit and the frequency is less than his detractors believe. I agree that at some point this becomes a big issue, but I don't think it's a major one with Gordon. I don't think it's one you'd deal with less with other 20 ppg scorers.
houheffna
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Re:McGraw: Decent chance the Bulls will re-sign Be
It is simple, BG needs to "buy in". Put him under hypnosis, and have him chant "I am not the man" over and over and over again if that is what you have to do. BG is profitable offensively to any team, especially coming off the bench. But he really believes from his style of play that he is the star of the team. If he continues to believe that, he has to go. He must buy in, period.
It is simple, BG needs to "buy in". Put him under hypnosis, and have him chant "I am not the man" over and over and over again if that is what you have to do. BG is profitable offensively to any team, especially coming off the bench. But he really believes from his style of play that he is the star of the team. If he continues to believe that, he has to go. He must buy in, period.
dougthonus
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Re:McGraw: Decent chance the Bulls will re-sign Be
houheffna wrote:
He's the best scorer on the team. Until there is a better scorer, he should feel he's teh best scorer on the team.
This isn't to say that Gordon can get all selfish and not play team ball, I don't agree with that at all, he needs to be a team player like everyone else on the team. I don't feel that's been a big issue for him though. Neither do any of his teammates from what I gather.
houheffna wrote:
He's the best scorer on the team. Until there is a better scorer, he should feel he's teh best scorer on the team.
This isn't to say that Gordon can get all selfish and not play team ball, I don't agree with that at all, he needs to be a team player like everyone else on the team. I don't feel that's been a big issue for him though. Neither do any of his teammates from what I gather.
houheffna
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Re:McGraw: Decent chance the Bulls will re-sign Be
Those are called plays by the coaching staff for Pierce and Johnson. I can tell when an iso play is called for Gordon or Salmons, by the way the teammates play and react. Most of the time Gordon goes on his own. Salmons did a lot of iso in game 6, very effectively I might add. Those were called plays, believe me, VDN had no problem with him isolating.
Those are called plays by the coaching staff for Pierce and Johnson. I can tell when an iso play is called for Gordon or Salmons, by the way the teammates play and react. Most of the time Gordon goes on his own. Salmons did a lot of iso in game 6, very effectively I might add. Those were called plays, believe me, VDN had no problem with him isolating.
houheffna
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Re:McGraw: Decent chance the Bulls will re-sign Be
Nocioni, a former teammate, begs to differ. There are guys on the team that can score, Salmons was on the floor at the same time. Gordon is not the best player on the floor and not the best ballhandler on the floor. So he should give the ball up and allow Rose to create off of the dribble and Gordon can find his spot on the floor and get ready for the pass. Rose should handle the ball as much as Chris Paul and Deron Williams, CP3 or Deron would hit Gordon upside the head with a chair if Gordon pulled off some of those stunts he pulls on the offensive end. Imagine Gordon doing this stuff in Utah? Jerry Sloan would be in jail right now.
Nocioni, a former teammate, begs to differ. There are guys on the team that can score, Salmons was on the floor at the same time. Gordon is not the best player on the floor and not the best ballhandler on the floor. So he should give the ball up and allow Rose to create off of the dribble and Gordon can find his spot on the floor and get ready for the pass. Rose should handle the ball as much as Chris Paul and Deron Williams, CP3 or Deron would hit Gordon upside the head with a chair if Gordon pulled off some of those stunts he pulls on the offensive end. Imagine Gordon doing this stuff in Utah? Jerry Sloan would be in jail right now.
Hendu0520
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Re:McGraw: Decent chance the Bulls will re-sign Be
dougthonus wrote:
I agree Doug every other scorer does it too. But when people point it out we shouldn't jump all over them like it isn't true, you are just saying it is not necessarily a bad thing, which I agree. However that running layup in Game 6 (I think 6) with 3 players on him, he made it but only Kobay or Wade tries that, no one else does. So he is on the top end of guys who once they go one on one there is no passing.
By the way Lebron is great at that, he rarely takes a bad shot and that is why his crap team is so successful. So it does matter its just most people are just as bad as Gordon is and they make a lot more money.
And we are Bulls fans so we see every time BG does it, we miss when others do it so naturally we can only complain about something we see.
dougthonus wrote:
I agree Doug every other scorer does it too. But when people point it out we shouldn't jump all over them like it isn't true, you are just saying it is not necessarily a bad thing, which I agree. However that running layup in Game 6 (I think 6) with 3 players on him, he made it but only Kobay or Wade tries that, no one else does. So he is on the top end of guys who once they go one on one there is no passing.
By the way Lebron is great at that, he rarely takes a bad shot and that is why his crap team is so successful. So it does matter its just most people are just as bad as Gordon is and they make a lot more money.
And we are Bulls fans so we see every time BG does it, we miss when others do it so naturally we can only complain about something we see.
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