Minority Hires & Draft Picks

[dweebs19]

I think when you apply that lens to things it always looks darker than it actually is in nuance.

Yes there are some fears of some double standards, but all those stories and situations are deeper than that.

Kellen Moore and Leftwich seem similar on the surface. I who claim not to have a racial bias because I studied brains from the inside out and understand our similarities intricately before we get to skin organ pigmentation and cultural differences, do view them the same and want neither from a “safe” hire perspective, but would absolutely make sure I interview both to potentially identify a young genius if it’s there.

and with those two guys you might interview them to gather a file for 5 or 10 years down the road to revisit if they flash potential but it’s not the right fit currently.

I just want to make sure that everyone knows that I'm not accusing anyone of racism. I was just frustrated because too many people are making excuses to not hire someone yet don't use those same reasons to not hire McDaniels.

 

[Raskolnikov]

I just want to make sure that everyone knows that I'm not accusing anyone of racism. I was just frustrated because too many people are making excuses to not hire someone yet don't use those same reasons to not hire McDaniels.

McDaniels is an unusual mixture of good and bad.

I think he’s been forgiven for Denver, in part because Cutler did turn out to be a massive dick.

I mean things went south for him after one conversation with his new QB and he never recovered. That QB was Jay Cutler and we have an idea why some head coaches would pick up on his flavor of toxicity and walk out the room thinking “hell no” I’m not working with that guy.

I’m in New England now, and the thing that impressed me is McDaniels ability to construct a run first offense that can open up a passing game.

They built the offense for Cam Newton I think, but then realized they can basically run on almost anyone and get 3 yards per carry consistently.

Anyway, you are seeing McDaniela revisited because what they have done in New England is really impressive over the last two years. He clearly understands offense and play calling to be able to not only win games with what they have, but be unstoppable at times against some teams personnel.

The 5th QB taken looks the best…and again McDaniels is getting some of that credit.

McDaniels also works for a defensive coach, Moore and Leftwich are running someone else’s system.

 

[BaBaBlacksheep]

Go back to my earlier example of Eliot Wolf. He may presently be a great evaluator of talent, and he could be the guy that ultimately brings 12 Super Bowls to the Bears, but doors opened up for him because of his father. To deny otherwise is to put your head in the sand. Most, and it very easily could be all, minority candidates for positions of GM don't start their careers with connections like Eliot Wolf has.

You know what would actually stop decisions being based on race? Making things equal. Do you think, for a single second, that a black/hispanic/asian/female candidate had ANY shot at a job an NFL front office if they were going up against Ron Wolf's kid?

Forgot to ask your thoughts on Ran Carthan? Son of a former player and coach. You don’t think his dad may have some connections there? You think the job automatically goes to Eliot Wolf over him?

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

Forgot to ask your thoughts on Ran Carthan? Son of a former player and coach. You don’t think his dad may have some connections there? You think the job automatically goes to Eliot Wolf over him?

I'm sure his father did help him get started, and good for him. If it's good enough for the Wolfs, McVays, Shanahans, Belichicks, and Zimmers of the world, it should good enough for the Carthans.

 

[BaBaBlacksheep]

I'm sure his father did help him get started, and good for him. If it's good enough for the Wolfs, McVays, Shanahans, Belichicks, and Zimmers of the world, it should good enough for the Carthans.

You made a pretty big deal about Wolf and his connections. Just pointing out “dad connections” aren’t a white guy only thing.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

You made a pretty big deal about Wolf and his connections. Just pointing out “dad connections” aren’t a white guy only thing.

I never implied otherwise.

 

[BaBaBlacksheep]

I never implied otherwise.

You said he was one of the reasons we have the Rooney rule. What else would you be implying since the Rooney rule deals with minorities?

 

[remydat]

Assigning different value to people = racist.

Not hiring someone because they’re a minority = racist.

But how do I know which owners are hiring because they’re racist and who’s just an idiot? I’ve seen people call the Bears racist for firing Lovie after 10 wins. I don’t think that makes them racist…. Idiots maybe…. But not racist.

Is there an owner out there that’s never hired a minority coach? If yes, then yeah, probably a racist.

And just to be accurate it’s not 1 out of 32. It’s 1 out of 23 or 24. Whatever the number is now. (Not that that makes it any better)

By this logic forcing teams to interview 2 minorities is racist. A team right now could hold interviews and exclude white candidates. So the reality is you accept some level of racism by your own logic. So the issue here is you dont oppose racism. You simply have a line drawn as to what you will accept that is different from others.

You said he was one of the reasons we have the Rooney rule. What else would you be implying since the Rooney rule deals with minorities?

I think he is suggesting white people have a greater ability to leverage their connections since the majority of GMs and coaches are white.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

You said he was one of the reasons we have the Rooney rule. What else would you be implying since the Rooney rule deals with minorities?

I did say that, and I stand by the statement. I can't fault Ron Carthon for attempting/trying to use the same roads others have used to gain high profile positions within the NFL.

 

[BaBaBlacksheep]

By this logic forcing teams to interview 2 minorities is racist. A team righit could hold interviews and exclude white candidates. So the reality is you accept some level of racism by your own logic. So the issue here is you dont oppose racism. You simply have a line drawn as to what you will accept that is different from others.


I think he is suggesting white people have a greater ability to leverage their connections since the majority of GMs and coaches are white.

There's no limit to the number of candidates a team can interview. This doesn't make sense.

 

[BaBaBlacksheep]

I did say that, and I stand by the statement. I can't fault Ron Carthon for attempting/trying to use the same roads others have used to gain high profile positions within the NFL.

Neither do I. All I'm pointing out is these advantages some people have aren't race exclusive.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

Neither do I. All I'm pointing out is these advantages some people have aren't race exclusive.

Cool, you found the one example to five I offered. Great ratio.

 

[BaBaBlacksheep]

Cool, you found the one example to five I offered. Great ratio.

Chris Grier is another. (the guy who fired Brian Flores)

Lovie hired his son.

Marvin Lewis did too.

It's almost like nepotism can be found in all races?

 

[remydat]

I don't think race should be a big factor in hiring, but I'm not going to be mad if it's used. Reason I say this is because they use other factors sometimes to hire some candidates and minorities are at a disadvantage for that. There also seems to be a different standard for some coordinators compared to other coordinators. Race may not be the reason, but it's kinda weird. As someone mentioned above, Brady is used as a deterrent to hiring Leftwich but it was not used as a deterrent for Josh McDaniels. Manning wasn't used as a deterrent for Gase. Everyone still gave them a chance. Great we can say we learned that lesson and won't do that anymore. Nagy and Moore are inexperienced OCs and people wanted to hire them( I was one of them too) even though Leftwich has more experience. You can say not enough experience hurt Nagy. Great, we can learn from past experience. Totally cool.

However, there are some candidates with terrible histories but for some reason, we're not learning from past experience with them. Some people on this board give them the benefit of the doubt that maybe they learned something from their mistakes. Josh McDaniels who was hired because of Brady the first time, failed in Denver, in St. Louis, and that debacle he did with the Colts is still fresh...yet there are some people who are willing to overlook that. Now, we are not learning from past experience when it comes to this guy. Daboll failed everywhere except when he got a QB. However, we are not using his past experience against him. We just say he probably learned his lesson. Don't get me wrong, I'd be happy with Daboll too.

Frazier and Caldwell also have a bad past experience and yet nobody wants to say that maybe they learned their lesson. Nobody is giving them the benefit of the doubt like they are Josh McDaniels and Daboll. The only minority with a bad past experience that people are ok with, are Flores and possibly Bowles.

To summarize, this is the general consensus of the board:

Not enough experience, we don't want him:
Eric Bienemy
Byron Leftwich

Not enough experience, we want him:
Nagy
Kellen Moore

He had Brady, we don't want him:
Leftwich

He had Brady, we want him:
Josh McDaniels

Has a terrible past coaching history, we don't want him:
Frazier
Caldwell

Has a terrible past coaching history, we want him:
Josh McDaniels
Daboll
Flores
Bowles is a maybe. I want him, but there are people who don't

So as you can see, there are certain people who get the benefit of the doubt and certain people who don't. Not saying race has anything to do with it, just saying that for the most part some coordinators get leeway and some don't. The ones who don't just happen to be "different". Anyway, sorry for the rant. At the end of the day, I agree with you that race should not play a role in hiring HC but if McDaniels for whatever reason keeps getting a pass, I don't mind if they use race.

QFT

 

[modo]

Can only white people leverage white people and only black people leverage black people?

 

[remydat]

McDaniels is an unusual mixture of good and bad.

I think he’s been forgiven for Denver, in part because Cutler did turn out to be a massive dick.

I mean things went south for him after one conversation with his new QB and he never recovered. That QB was Jay Cutler and we have an idea why some head coaches would pick up on his flavor of toxicity and walk out the room thinking “hell no” I’m not working with that guy.

I’m in New England now, and the thing that impressed me is McDaniels ability to construct a run first offense that can open up a passing game.

They built the offense for Cam Newton I think, but then realized they can basically run on almost anyone and get 3 yards per carry consistently.

Anyway, you are seeing McDaniela revisited because what they have done in New England is really impressive over the last two years. He clearly understands offense and play calling to be able to not only win games with what they have, but be unstoppable at times against some teams personnel.

The 5th QB taken looks the best…and again McDaniels is getting some of that credit.

McDaniels also works for a defensive coach, Moore and Leftwich are running someone else’s system.

Reports are Brady left NE in part because McDaniels did not want to follow his input. So why is being stubborn and not listening to the GOAT not a knock on him but people then knock Leftwich for actually listening to the GOAT?

 

[remydat]

There's no limit to the number of candidates a team can interview. This doesn't make sense.

The point is a team can currently interview only minority candidates if they want. They cannot interview only white candidates so that is still a difference based on race. You are just ok with it so you arent calling it racism.

 

[remydat]

Chris Grier is another. (the guy who fired Brian Flores)

Lovie hired his son.

Marvin Lewis did too.

It's almost like nepotism can be found in all races?

Of course it can. The point is since there are more Ron Wolf's in positions of power than Lovie Smith's nepotism will skew towards more white people getting abead that way.

Can only white people leverage white people and only black people leverage black people?

In theory, of course not but in practice it happens that way more often than not.

 

[modo]

I would point out that most people who get a shot at head coach are from successful organizations. Coaching trees if you will.

If you want to see an "imbalance" of white vs minority candidates the successful orgs are usually the funnel into higher level jobs and promotions in the NFL. Take a look at who they hire. If the successful coaching trees have a majority non-minorities you will get a slew of non-minority candidates and vice versa.

 

[BaBaBlacksheep]

The point is a team can currently interview only minority candidates if they want. They cannot interview only white candidates so that is still a difference based on race. You are just ok with it so you arent calling it racism.

Interviewing is not the same as hiring. No one is more valuable based on skin color. Teams can still interview whoever they want. You’re reaching but A+ for effort.