Most Underrated/Overrated Players in the NBA?

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Paul Pierce is far from a top defender and comparing bg to pp isn't right.

Point being, BG is an above average shooting guard and I think he will get back to it after the off year and surgery. Especially if Rip gets traded. I'd also rather have BG over Korver and Watson. I think a three guard linup of Rose, BG and Brewer would be one of the best in the league. Don't forget in 08/09, BG and Rose were one of the best backcourts in the league offensively.

Yeah, that's pretty much implied about what I said... if BG is a top 10-20 SG then obviously he's above average. Obviously having Ben Gordon would make the Bulls better, but I think the salary he demanded was too much, and he doesn't seem like a guy who is going to contribute in a big way to winning a championship any more than a guy like, say, B.J. Armstrong did. But B.J. didn't demand 30 mins. and $9M...

I think Pierce actually is one of the best defenders out there. He has a great combination of strength, height, and length. He wasn't very good when he first got in the league in 1999-ish. Nowadays there are only a couple other wing defenders I'd say are better:
Shane Battier- for sure
Thabo Sefolosha- for sure
Ron Artest- for sure
Tayshaun Prince
Gerald Wallace
Luol Deng? Trevor Ariza?

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

Prince and Deng....um no

Ariza is a very good defender tho i may put him ahead of pierce

 

[TheStig]

Yeah, that's pretty much implied about what I said... if BG is a top 10-20 SG then obviously he's above average. Obviously having Ben Gordon would make the Bulls better, but I think the salary he demanded was too much, and he doesn't seem like a guy who is going to contribute in a big way to winning a championship any more than a guy like, say, B.J. Armstrong did. But B.J. didn't demand 30 mins. and $9M...

I think Pierce actually is one of the best defenders out there. He has a great combination of strength, height, and length. He wasn't very good when he first got in the league in 1999-ish. Nowadays there are only a couple other wing defenders I'd say are better:
Shane Battier- for sure
Thabo Sefolosha- for sure
Ron Artest- for sure
Tayshaun Prince
Gerald Wallace
Luol Deng? Trevor Ariza?

Scorers get paid. There aren't any 20ppg scorers that make less. I'd have no hesitations paying him 9m a year. He is worth it and would be the perfect third option and shooter for this team.
Pierce is a good system defender. But him and Allen were average to slightly below defenders prior to playing with KG and thibs.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Look, all I'm saying is that if you want to beat the superheavyweights (Lakers, Celtics, Heat), you should want Ronnie Brewer playing heavier minutes than Ben Gordon.

Ray Allen still is an average defender... Paul Pierce is the one that really learned under Doc Rivers and Tom Thibodeau that he needed to be more tenacious on defense, and he got better. The system made Pierce and Allen better, but Pierce is a beast... there aren't many perimeter defenders you can name who are better... it wasn't just the 'team system making him look better than he was.'

 

[TheStig]

Look, all I'm saying is that if you want to beat the superheavyweights (Lakers, Celtics, Heat), you should want Ronnie Brewer playing heavier minutes than Ben Gordon.

Ray Allen still is an average defender... Paul Pierce is the one that really learned under Doc Rivers and Tom Thibodeau that he needed to be more tenacious on defense, and he got better. The system made Pierce and Allen better, but Pierce is a beast... there aren't many perimeter defenders you can name who are better... it wasn't just the 'team system making him look better than he was.'

I don't think thats true at all. I think your gonna see us still struggle to score a bit. Boozer is a big help but he isn't the end all be all. BG is a gamer and those are the guys you need to win. I also think a guy like BG is what we are missing. Rose also is a poor defender and we can still win with him.

Not saying he didn't improve, I am just saying he is more of a product of the system. PP bought into it more but I don't think he is a defensive beast. I don't think he has the quickness to be one, even a true elite defender like artest has slowed.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Well, since Boston and L.A. are so dedicated to forcing a slow-pace opposing offense, I think that sort of maximizes the ability for guys who have slowed down (like Artest and Pierce) to still be elite defenders, despite losing speed as they've both put on miles. It was much of the same story with the Bulls with Jordan, Pippen, and Harper in the late 90's.

If I could sign Ben Gordon to a 3-year/$27M contract tomorrow, I probably would. I think that the Bulls would get a little better, as a whole, but I would hope that Gordon didn't play big minutes. I think they would be just about locking themselves up as a team that could get close to a title, but not actually be likely to beat the very best teams...

 

[TheStig]

They could play in wheel chairs and it wouldn't help the fact that hes slowing down. A player can still get by him. He doesn't have the quickness to keep up. Perkins and KG cover up a lot for him, why do you think Rondo is able to play such aggressive D. If he did that on a normal team he'd be a larry hughes type defender in his prime. Good but not great like he is.

BG played 30+mpg for a few playoff teams. He isn't a liability anymore defensively, he is average and can play pretty good system defense. He isn't Brewer or Kirk on that end but he is also a much better option on the other end. I find it interesting that BG is so undersireable but guys like Kirk and Brewer who are the inverse are prefered. The guy is as good offensively as they are defensively and offensive players get payed. I'd have no hesitations about BG being the starting SG and playing 35mpg on this team. I don't think he gets beat up as much as you guys make it out, he was actually fairly consistent on both ends his last year here. I wouldn't want the BG from before 06/07 and I think thats how he is being protrayed here. If he can get minutes in the clusterfuck the pistons made, he will produce.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

underrated: chris kaman, kevin love

overrated: paul pierce, brandon jennings

Clown shoes

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

lineup that wins a title:

PG: Derrick Rose
SG: Ben Gordon
SF: Luol Deng
PF: LeBron James
C: Joakim Noah

that team wins a title. ben gordon is in the starting lineup

Holy shit.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

2008-2009 season, where we let BG go instead of paying him 9 mil a year.

Player A: 20.5 ppg, 45.7% fg, 39.1% 3p, 83% ft, 5.6 rpg, 3.6 apg, 1.0 bpg, 2.81 TOPG
Player B: 20.7 ppg, 45.5% fg, 41% 3p, 86.4% ft 3.5 rpg, 3.4 apg, .9 bpg, 2.44 TOPG

comparable stats except for rebounding right? player A is Finals MVP Paul Pierce who was paid upwards of 15 million dollars that season. player B is Ben Gordon, who woulda been paid less than 8 mil that season. and both players are subpar defensive players, so don't throw that at me.

Clear evidence that Ben Gordon is just as good, and valuable to a team as Paul Pierce is.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

Underrated: Luis Scola

Overrated: David Lee

Rated Properly: Rajon Rondo

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

Underrated: Luis Scola

Overrated: David Lee

Rated Properly: Rajon Rondo

i cant stand him

 

[TheStig]

Underrated: Luis Scola

Overrated: David Lee

Rated Properly: Rajon Rondo

GSW has a chance to be good. They have some good pieces with Curry, Ellis, Udoh, Lee and Biendris. I still don't think they put it together but it won't be for a lack of talent.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Stig, Pierce may have slowed down, but it's not like he's that slow nowadays. When was the last time you saw somebody fly right by him?

 

[TheStig]

there are quite a few times. It would be exposed a lot more if he didn't have Perkins and KG playing behind him. He is not an elite defender. He can just work in the system.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

we're going to have to agree to disagree because I definitely see him as borderline elite.

 

[TheStig]

we're going to have to agree to disagree because I definitely see him as borderline elite.

I'm not saying he is bad or anything. He is just a product of the system and playing with KG and Perkins behind him. No one improves their defense after so many years just like that.

 

[houheffna]

They could play in wheel chairs and it wouldn't help the fact that hes slowing down. A player can still get by him. He doesn't have the quickness to keep up. Perkins and KG cover up a lot for him, why do you think Rondo is able to play such aggressive D. If he did that on a normal team he'd be a larry hughes type defender in his prime. Good but not great like he is.

BG played 30+mpg for a few playoff teams. He isn't a liability anymore defensively, he is average and can play pretty good system defense. He isn't Brewer or Kirk on that end but he is also a much better option on the other end. I find it interesting that BG is so undersireable but guys like Kirk and Brewer who are the inverse are prefered. The guy is as good offensively as they are defensively and offensive players get payed. I'd have no hesitations about BG being the starting SG and playing 35mpg on this team. I don't think he gets beat up as much as you guys make it out, he was actually fairly consistent on both ends his last year here. I wouldn't want the BG from before 06/07 and I think thats how he is being protrayed here. If he can get minutes in the clusterfuck the pistons made, he will produce.

You notice that Pierce "works the system" but you didn't notice that "the system" is the only way Gordon worked defensively? Gordon cannot guard one on one on the wing against most NBA players, I saw Beaubois handle him on the wing with ease early last season. Gordon is inept when it comes to keeping his man in front of him. That great offensive backcourt you talk about was also one of the worst defensive backcourts if not THE worst in the NBA that year.

 

[TheStig]

You notice that Pierce "works the system" but you didn't notice that "the system" is the only way Gordon worked defensively? Gordon cannot guard one on one on the wing against most NBA players, I saw Beaubois handle him on the wing with ease early last season. Gordon is inept when it comes to keeping his man in front of him. That great offensive backcourt you talk about was also one of the worst defensive backcourts if not THE worst in the NBA that year.

I wouldn't exactly call 14 pts getting handled. Beaubois got hot. But I will disagree, BG is actually pretty good at keeping people in front of him. He fits into a system decently and can stay in front of guys and funnel them toward help.

They were pretty bad defensively but Rose was clearly worse that year defensively. I think as Rose improves defensively they would have gotten better, they also both had a crappy noah for 2/3 of the season as their defensive anchor.

 

[JCM]

very good debate going on here.