Most Underrated/Overrated Players in the NBA?

[TheStig]

Your last paragraph, was god awful man...compared to NOBODY is Kobe one dimensional. I brought Kobe up because you used to say that about him as if he can't do anything else well. He is an excellent defender and ball handler. My point is that you stressed Kobe as one dimensional but you don't see it in Ben Gordon?

Well as far as BG goes, Vinny Del Negro and I disagree with you, which is why they sat his ass down in closing minutes of the playoffs. That way, he "really isn't a problem defensively".

Compared to Bron he is.

VDN sat rose for most of the 4th quarter for part of the year too. Do two wrongs now make a right?

 

[TheStig]

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Dwyane Wade
3) Brandon Roy
4) Manu Ginobili
5) Joe Johnson
6) Tyreke Evans
7) Monta Ellis
8) O.J. Mayo
9) Stephen Jackson
10) Ray Allen
11) Vince Carter
12) Jamal Crawford
13) Eric Gordon
14) Kevin Martin
15) Jason Richardson
16) Jason Terry
17) Ben Gordon
18) Gilbert Arenas (not including Allen Iverson)
19) John Salmons
20) Richard Hamilton
21) Michael Redd
22) J.R. Smith

that's where I'd put him.

Evans and Arenas both play PG. But if BG is healthy and Rip gets traded, he can be up their with Mayo imo.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Evans and Arenas both play PG. But if BG is healthy and Rip gets traded, he can be up their with Mayo imo.

Tyreke Evans definitely played the majority of his floor time at the 2 last year (with Beno Udrih). He seems more like a D-Wade type of guard to me than a typical 1. Gilbert Arenas has always been a combo-guard, but with Wall and Hinrich on the Wizards next year, I definitely see him as a 2 guy also.

We'll see how Ben Gordon does next year, because 2009-10 was a pretty shitty year for him with the injuries and all. He never seemed to me like a guy who could score at will, and like somebody here said before... he's the type of guy that is a liability on the defensive end. He's a guy who should be defending the Keith Bogans and bruce Bowens of the NBA...

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Compared to Bron he is.

VDN sat rose for most of the 4th quarter for part of the year too. Do two wrongs now make a right?

Kobe Bryant is a much more versatile scorer and has a better skillset than Lebron James.

Both of those guys are extremely versatile players, in general. LeBron obviously has the passing and rebounding over Kobe. But Kobe has the lock-down defense and post-up and dead-eye shooting skills that James does not have perfected.

 

[TheStig]

Kobe Bryant is a much more versatile scorer and has a better skillset than Lebron James.

Both of those guys are extremely versatile players, in general. LeBron obviously has the passing and rebounding over Kobe. But Kobe has the lock-down defense and post-up and dead-eye shooting skills that James does not have perfected.

I don't know about the defense anymore. Bron finished top 5 in dpoy votes and Kobe didn't even finish in the top 10. I'd hardly call Kobe a dead eye shooter, he shot a worse fg and 3pt% than Bron last year.

 

[TheStig]

Tyreke Evans definitely played the majority of his floor time at the 2 last year (with Beno Udrih). He seems more like a D-Wade type of guard to me than a typical 1. Gilbert Arenas has always been a combo-guard, but with Wall and Hinrich on the Wizards next year, I definitely see him as a 2 guy also.

We'll see how Ben Gordon does next year, because 2009-10 was a pretty shitty year for him with the injuries and all. He never seemed to me like a guy who could score at will, and like somebody here said before... he's the type of guy that is a liability on the defensive end. He's a guy who should be defending the Keith Bogans and bruce Bowens of the NBA...

Evans played about half and half. Arenas though played all his minutes at pg last year. Obviously with Wall he will play more sg.

I think he will. The only thing that will be holding him back is the cluster **** roster Detroit has. If he gets the minutes he will produce. But I really think your underrating his D. He wasn't Kirk but he was average on that end. For what he lacked in instinct, he made up by being able to play in the system.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I don't know about the defense anymore. Bron finished top 5 in dpoy votes and Kobe didn't even finish in the top 10. I'd hardly call Kobe a dead eye shooter, he shot a worse fg and 3pt% than Bron last year.

the DPOY and all-first team votes are pretty much all b.s. Kobe Bryant and LeBron James have no business in the top 5 as defenders. Top 20? Maybe... top 5 (like ESPN would have you believe)... hell no...

LeBron James is definitely the most efficient scorer- no doubt. But the reason is because LeBron James has, by far, the superior physique over Bryant. He gets a lot more easy, fast-break points than Bryant too.

If we are talking about flat-out shooting stroke, Kobe>LeBron in that aspect. He also has the superior high-post game.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Evans played about half and half. Arenas though played all his minutes at pg last year. Obviously with Wall he will play more sg.

I think he will. The only thing that will be holding him back is the cluster **** roster Detroit has. If he gets the minutes he will produce. But I really think your underrating his D. He wasn't Kirk but he was average on that end. For what he lacked in instinct, he made up by being able to play in the system.

The main problem with Gordon is that he is impossible to hide... since he has no decent PG skills on offense, it's a given that you cannot have another SG alongside him in the backcourt.

Another PG + Ben Gordon = pretty much always undersized on defense.

It's pretty much pick your poison because BG is too small to defend most SGs and he's too slow to guard most PGs...

If you play Gordon as your PG, at least you won't lack size on defense, but then you are going to have a pretty stalled offense.

 

[TheStig]

The main problem with Gordon is that he is impossible to hide... since he has no decent PG skills on offense, it's a given that you cannot have another SG alongside him in the backcourt.

Another PG + Ben Gordon = pretty much always undersized on defense.

It's pretty much pick your poison because BG is too small to defend most SGs and he's too slow to guard most PGs...

If you play Gordon as your PG, at least you won't lack size on defense, but then you are going to have a pretty stalled offense.

Again I disagree. He played decent defense his last year here. As I said to xfactor, if he was so bad defensively, it should be easy to find games where he got lit up. It doesn't happen often. So I don't think you can call him a liability. He isn't an asset on that end either.

 

[TheStig]

the DPOY and all-first team votes are pretty much all b.s. Kobe Bryant and LeBron James have no business in the top 5 as defenders. Top 20? Maybe... top 5 (like ESPN would have you believe)... hell no...

LeBron James is definitely the most efficient scorer- no doubt. But the reason is because LeBron James has, by far, the superior physique over Bryant. He gets a lot more easy, fast-break points than Bryant too.

If we are talking about flat-out shooting stroke, Kobe>LeBron in that aspect. He also has the superior high-post game.

Again, the facts speak for themselves. Those votes might have their flaws here and there but that doesn't explain the wide gap. Bron being more efficent doesn't explain why he shot a better 3pt% something that would help define a shooter.9

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Again I disagree. He played decent defense his last year here. As I said to xfactor, if he was so bad defensively, it should be easy to find games where he got lit up. It doesn't happen often. So I don't think you can call him a liability. He isn't an asset on that end either.

Even if he has gotten better skill-wise on D since his Bulls days (which I have not noticed), he is still slow for his small size. He's listed at 6'3'' but he's more like 6'1 or 6'2.

Too small to guard most SGs.

Too slow to guard most PGs.

The liability we are talking about lies right there. He is a guy with a PG's body but lacking the PG skills and speed on offense.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Again, the facts speak for themselves. Those votes might have their flaws here and there but that doesn't explain the wide gap. Bron being more efficent doesn't explain why he shot a better 3pt% something that would help define a shooter.9

If you are trying to convince me that, at this stage of their careers, that James>Bryant, you need not argue.

But to suggest LeBron James is a better pure shooter because he has a higher 3-point percentage. C'mon...

LeBron is by far the better help defender and weak-side defender. But Kobe isn't too shabby in that area either. And... Kobe is better defending the ball than LeBron.

I'm not comparing either one to Battier, Artest, or Thabo Sefolosha though. There are a few guys who I consider to be waaaayyy better than Bryant/James when we are talking about DPOY/subjective awards.

 

[houheffna]

Again, the facts speak for themselves. Those votes might have their flaws here and there but that doesn't explain the wide gap. Bron being more efficent doesn't explain why he shot a better 3pt% something that would help define a shooter.9

So according to your thinking, Hinrich is a better shooter than Gordon from long range? Hinrich shot for a higher percentage than Gordon, Lebron, or Kobe...hell, lets crown Hinrich the best shooter in the league!!!

So why would you pine for Gordon to be on the Bulls? Hinrich is a better shooter and Korver is a MUCH better shooter!

"Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lamppost: for support, not illumination.”
Vin Scully

If you won't listen to me, listen to him, and he is in BASEBALL where stats is king!

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Kobe's FG% and 3ptFG% don't even do his shooting justice. Defenses need to stay on him and watch him for as long as he's on the court. You NEVER see Kobe get open shots. You see LeBron get open shots though. Why? Because even though he's a very respectable shooter, defenses around the NBA will give him the open 3PFG attempt ALL day, as opposed to letting him drive to the basket. If you let LeBron get a full head-of-steam to the basket, he is simply unstoppable. Kobe is much more stoppable when it comes to finishing around the rim- that is why you always see at least one guy always draping him when he shoots. Kobe might be able to go around the guy (or hit it in his face for that matter) but they would still much rather see Kobe put the ball on the floor rather than LeBron.

 

[dougthonus]

Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheStig View Post
Evans played about half and half. Arenas though played all his minutes at pg last year. Obviously with Wall he will play more sg.

I think he will. The only thing that will be holding him back is the cluster **** roster Detroit has. If he gets the minutes he will produce. But I really think your underrating his D. He wasn't Kirk but he was average on that end. For what he lacked in instinct, he made up by being able to play in the system.
The main problem with Gordon is that he is impossible to hide... since he has no decent PG skills on offense, it's a given that you cannot have another SG alongside him in the backcourt.

Another PG + Ben Gordon = pretty much always undersized on defense.

It's pretty much pick your poison because BG is too small to defend most SGs and he's too slow to guard most PGs...

If you play Gordon as your PG, at least you won't lack size on defense, but then you are going to have a pretty stalled offense.

For a guy who's impossible to hide on defense, it's funny that the Bulls managed to have elite defenses in probably three of his five seasons here, and were only below average on defense once.

Seems like, not only was he not impossible to hide, but that, in fact, it wasn't that hard to build an elite defense with him on it. Especially given that the Bulls did this without having any truly elite defenders on the team.

Ben Gordon's defensive liability has always been one of the most over-rated concepts in the NBA.

 

[dougthonus]

LeBron is by far the better help defender and weak-side defender. But Kobe isn't too shabby in that area either. And... Kobe is better defending the ball than LeBron.

I'm not comparing either one to Battier, Artest, or Thabo Sefolosha though. There are a few guys who I consider to be waaaayyy better than Bryant/James when we are talking about DPOY/subjective awards.

In a key situation either Kobe or LeBron would be 10x the defender of any of those guys. Especially at this point in their careers (outside of perhaps Sefolosha who isn't on the decline), but even in their primes.

The difference is those guys can go all out on defense every possession because that's all they have to do. Kobe/LeBron need to work 10x as hard on offense because they're fighting through double/triple teams and handle the ball most of the time for their squads.

When it matters, either one is vastly more athletic and just as skilled defensively.

 

[houheffna]

For a guy who's impossible to hide on defense, it's funny that the Bulls managed to have elite defenses in probably three of his five seasons here, and were only below average on defense once.

Seems like, not only was he not impossible to hide, but that, in fact, it wasn't that hard to build an elite defense with him on it. Especially given that the Bulls did this without having any truly elite defenders on the team.

Ben Gordon's defensive liability has always been one of the most over-rated concepts in the NBA.

Skiles did his best to put in the right team defensive concepts to hide Gordon's deficiencies.

Ben Wallace was 4x defensive player of the year, including the year before he got to Chicago, he was not an elite defender in 2007? I don't think its mere coincidence that the defense stepped up to elite status after he showed up.

 

[Scoot26]

Skiles did his best to put in the right team defensive concepts to hide Gordon's deficiencies.

Ben Wallace was 4x defensive player of the year, including the year before he got to Chicago, he was not an elite defender in 2007? I don't think its mere coincidence that the defense stepped up to elite status after he showed up.

The Bears were 2nd in efficiency in 2004-2005, Gordon's rookie year. They were 7th in 2005-2006 and 1st in 2006-2007.

The point of the matter is not how the team performed as a team defense. One guy wont entirely make or break a defense...Not in an overall season. Some teams attacked Gordon and use every opportunity to expose him on defense, and some teams simply didnt or lacked a talent to do that. You look in the 04/05 Playoffs...The Bulls lost Deng and Eddy Curry to injury and simply struggled to score points...While Curry, hardly the defensive player, was good for 15 ppg that season. Deng, a rookie, nonetheless played defense...but overall they lacked an inside presence to pull out a win in the last 4 games against Washington after going up 2-0.

In the 06/07 playoffs, you had a hobbling Wade, an ancient Jason Williams and Gary Payton being guarded by Gordon.. Wade was guarded by Hinrich. The next series they faced a Pistons team that had the weapons to match the Bulls and simply overpowered them. And whoever Gordon guarded..didnt seem to matter, they lit him up. That was part of the Pistons strategy..and the commentators pointed it out all series long.

 

[dougthonus]

Skiles did his best to put in the right team defensive concepts to hide Gordon's deficiencies.

Ben Wallace was 4x defensive player of the year, including the year before he got to Chicago, he was not an elite defender in 2007? I don't think its mere coincidence that the defense stepped up to elite status after he showed up.

Ben Wallace wasn't a 1st team all defensive player, so no, I don't think he was elite. He won his 4th DMVP via reputation as well. I'm not saying the Bulls had no good defensive players, but Ben Wallace wasn't an elite defensive player anymore.

The Bulls with Ben Gordon had defensive ratings of:
2nd
7th
1st
14th
18th

Even if you remove the 1st with Ben Wallace, the Bulls were a notably above average defense throughout his tenure here. They never had a shut down perimeter defender in that entire time frame either.

 

[dougthonus]

And whoever Gordon guarded..didnt seem to matter, they lit him up. That was part of the Pistons strategy..and the commentators pointed it out all series long.

TThe Bulls completely crapped the bed in that series, and to pin that on Gordon's defense is ridiculous. Ben Wallace was absolutely crap in that series, and he was supposed to be our defensive anchor. Hinrich sucked on defense, and he was our next best defender. Deng was abused by Prince and he was maybe our third best defender.

Yeah Gordon sucked too, but if you want to blame him for sucking in that series blame him for sucking on offense, because that was his role, and he was terrible at it in that series, much the way the whole team was more or less terrible at everything.