Most Underrated/Overrated Players in the NBA?

[houheffna]

Ben Wallace wasn't a 1st team all defensive player, so no, I don't think he was elite. He won his 4th DMVP via reputation as well. I'm not saying the Bulls had no good defensive players, but Ben Wallace wasn't an elite defensive player anymore.

The Bulls with Ben Gordon had defensive ratings of:
2nd
7th
1st
14th
18th

Even if you remove the 1st with Ben Wallace, the Bulls were a notably above average defense throughout his tenure here. They never had a shut down perimeter defender in that entire time frame either.

Okay, you went from elite to "notably above average"...14th and 18th in the league is not notably above average. And saying that Gordon who was horrid defensively his rookie year more than any other year, contributed to that team being 2nd in the league defensively actually disproves your point. They did that despite him, not because of him. Tyson Chandler and Ben Wallace had a lot more to do with covering up the inadequacies of players like Gordon defensively than the other way around.

That is like saying the Lakers teams, who had some pretty good defensive teams through Magic Johnson's career, proves that Magic was adequate defensively....wrong! Magic sucked defensively yet those teams were successful defensively.

 

[dougthonus]

Okay, you went from elite to "notably above average"...14th and 18th in the league is not notably above average. And saying that Gordon who was horrid defensively his rookie year more than any other year, contributed to that team being 2nd in the league defensively actually disproves your point. They did that despite him, not because of him. Tyson Chandler and Ben Wallace had a lot more to do with covering up the inadequacies of players like Gordon defensively than the other way around.

That is like saying the Lakers teams, who had some pretty good defensive teams through Magic Johnson's career, proves that Magic was adequate defensively....wrong! Magic sucked defensively yet those teams were successful defensively.

You are making up a position that I didn't take and arguing against it. I never said Gordon was a great defensive player.

I started with the point "Ben Gordon is impossible to hide on defense". This is clearly not the case, as the Bulls had elite defenses twice with Ben Gordon as a major minute player, were good once, and average twice.

I said the Bulls had elite defenses with Gordon. They did, twice. My mistake I said three originally, but once they were 7th, probably fair not to call that elite.

I said they were notably above average on the whole with Gordon. They were (average ranking of 8th for his five years here).

I didn't say Gordon was the cause of it. I just said his defensive deficiencies were vastly overstated and fairly easy to work around. The Bulls haven't been stacked with elite defensive talent to complement him. They've had good players in a good scheme, and it worked out fine.

Gordon's simply no where near as bad as many people think defensively. He's very strong, and teams were not successful posting him up statistically. People made a huge deal about it every time it happened, but if you look at the data throughout his career, teams who did that did so with poor efficiency. He's athletic enough that he generally held up his responsibility in the defense and helped push his man where he was supposed to go.

 

[Scoot26]

TThe Bulls completely crapped the bed in that series, and to pin that on Gordon's defense is ridiculous. Ben Wallace was absolutely crap in that series, and he was supposed to be our defensive anchor. Hinrich sucked on defense, and he was our next best defender. Deng was abused by Prince and he was maybe our third best defender.

Yeah Gordon sucked too, but if you want to blame him for sucking in that series blame him for sucking on offense, because that was his role, and he was terrible at it in that series, much the way the whole team was more or less terrible at everything.

I'm not pinning that whole series on Gordon. I just think it was a key part to it as commentators pointed out. Every player played terrible in that series except for Luol Deng.

 

[dougthonus]

I'm not pinning that whole series on Gordon. I just think it was a key part to it as commentators pointed out. Every player played terrible in that series except for Luol Deng.

Not that there's much merit in arguing over a playoff series from four seasons ago, but I disagree. I think the biggest defensive short comings were on Ben Wallace followed by Kirk Hinrich. Those were the leaders of the defense.

The greatest offensive shortcoming was on Ben Gordon who was the leader of our offense, though Hinrich played pretty poorly too and he was a good offensive player that season.

One of the things I'd point out about listening to announcers is that they get talking points about each player during the game, and they use those to fill in the gaps. In Gordon's talking points is clearly the fact that he was poor defensively, so it gets mentioned every time he misses a play.

Once you have something in your file, it tends to stay there forever regardless of whether it's really true or not. For example, Gordon was a poor defender his rookie season and the label stuck. He never became a great defender, but by the end he wasn't a bad one either. He was as good or bad as the next guard.

At least that's my opinion, (except the part about talking points which is true, not opinion).

 

[Scoot26]

Not that there's much merit in arguing over a playoff series from four seasons ago, but I disagree. I think the biggest defensive short comings were on Ben Wallace followed by Kirk Hinrich. Those were the leaders of the defense.

The greatest offensive shortcoming was on Ben Gordon who was the leader of our offense, though Hinrich played pretty poorly too and he was a good offensive player that season.

One of the things I'd point out about listening to announcers is that they get talking points about each player during the game, and they use those to fill in the gaps. In Gordon's talking points is clearly the fact that he was poor defensively, so it gets mentioned every time he misses a play.

Once you have something in your file, it tends to stay there forever regardless of whether it's really true or not. For example, Gordon was a poor defender his rookie season and the label stuck. He never became a great defender, but by the end he wasn't a bad one either. He was as good or bad as the next guard.

At least that's my opinion, (except the part about talking points which is true, not opinion).

Well I'll agree with you on talking points...Commentators just happened to point it out a few times and I paid attention to Gordon's defense and really didnt ever see anything good in that series.. Thats just what I remember thats all. And I've never thought his defense was good. It was average at best...and that would be because of his athleticism, which doesnt bold well for him when he gets older or injured.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

4 negative things having Ben Gordon on the floor does to your team:

undersized to defend 2-guards.

rather slow defending PGs.

(on offense) too slow and not enough court-vision to play PG

(on offense) tends to be chuck up shots (for better or worse) and dominates the ball too much.

 

[pinkizdead]

THIS is what I am talking about. Crawford is "significantly worse"? Are you serious? What do you use for scouting? Video games? Crawford was did very well in the role he was given, can't say the same about Gordon.

Carter is "far beyond worse" than Gordon? What??? Leave the drugs alone man. Stephen Jackson?

What the heck are you watching man...bad, bad analysis...

look at carter's per. he's 34 years old. he doesn't have much left in the tank. Stephen jackson is a far from efficient scorer. what are you smoking to suggest jackson is anywhere near gordon.

Crawford's role in atlanta was to score of the bench. If you want gordon to play off the bench, he'd do a hell of a lot better than crawford will. Also any defensive arguments that can be made against gordon ought to be applied to crawford.

 

[pinkizdead]

4 negative things having Ben Gordon on the floor does to your team:

undersized to defend 2-guards.

rather slow defending PGs.

(on offense) too slow and not enough court-vision to play PG

(on offense) tends to be chuck up shots (for better or worse) and dominates the ball too much.

i'm just glad you understand the mantra speed kills in the nba. i mean gordon's size is the only thing we should focus on. i'm sure korver and salmons will do a lot better this year.

to bring back kush's old mantra

4 INCHES BABY!

 

[pinkizdead]

Running With The Bulls - Download free podcast episodes by Brian Kush on iTunes. running with the bulls #115. check it out.

hopefully this might quiet some of the drone talking the points.

 

[houheffna]

look at carter's per. he's 34 years old. he doesn't have much left in the tank. Stephen jackson is a far from efficient scorer. what are you smoking to suggest jackson is anywhere near gordon.

Crawford's role in atlanta was to score of the bench. If you want gordon to play off the bench, he'd do a hell of a lot better than crawford will. Also any defensive arguments that can be made against gordon ought to be applied to crawford.

Carter had enough left in the tank to be better than Gordon last year. Say what you will, but that was the case. Over the last 5 years, it ain't close. I was one who stated that the trade for Carter would be regrettable. With the emergence of Redick, that will definitely be the case. Redick by the way, showed more ability on the court than Gordon has in a short amount of time also, just to throw that out there.

Notice you focus on efficiency, which is what a congregate from the Church of St. Ben of UCONN uses often. Never said Gordon wasn't efficient, I said he is one-dimensional. Everybody you named handle the ball better and can defend their position better, including Crawford.

And how...HOW exactly would Gordon have been a "hell of a lot better" playing behind Joe Johnson...oh my fault, you think Gordon is BETTER than Joe Johnson.

I don't think Rev. Kush would agree with you on that.

 

[houheffna]

You are making up a position that I didn't take and arguing against it. I never said Gordon was a great defensive player.

I started with the point "Ben Gordon is impossible to hide on defense". This is clearly not the case, as the Bulls had elite defenses twice with Ben Gordon as a major minute player, were good once, and average twice.

I said the Bulls had elite defenses with Gordon. They did, twice. My mistake I said three originally, but once they were 7th, probably fair not to call that elite.

I said they were notably above average on the whole with Gordon. They were (average ranking of 8th for his five years here).

I didn't say Gordon was the cause of it. I just said his defensive deficiencies were vastly overstated and fairly easy to work around. The Bulls haven't been stacked with elite defensive talent to complement him. They've had good players in a good scheme, and it worked out fine.

Gordon's simply no where near as bad as many people think defensively. He's very strong, and teams were not successful posting him up statistically. People made a huge deal about it every time it happened, but if you look at the data throughout his career, teams who did that did so with poor efficiency. He's athletic enough that he generally held up his responsibility in the defense and helped push his man where he was supposed to go.

I used the Magic Johnson analogy to point out that high level defenses can work around below average defensive players. You couldn't post up Magic either, he was a few inches from 7 feet tall. On the wing he was porous defensively.

As far as the Detroit series goes, Billups was stronger, and Gordon couldn't keep up with Hamilton. Rip's game is similar to Ray Allen. One of the many issues they had in that series is that they couldn't hide Gordon. The whole team is to blame, definitely. One reason they were inefficient offensively is because nobody on the team demands double teams consistently. St. Ben believers want people to believe that Gordon is doubled when he comes out in warmups and it continues until the game is over, but that is not the case.

 

[theCHI_Life84]

yet another thread ruined by the "great" bg debate

 

[dougthonus]

Well I'll agree with you on talking points...Commentators just happened to point it out a few times and I paid attention to Gordon's defense and really didnt ever see anything good in that series.. Thats just what I remember thats all. And I've never thought his defense was good. It was average at best...and that would be because of his athleticism, which doesnt bold well for him when he gets older or injured.

I agree that Gordon is no more than an average defender. I just don't see him as notably worse than an average defender either. People make him out to be Adam Morrison on defense or something.

He's a typical defensive player IMO, definitely not someone who's anchoring your defense, but not someone who's destroying it all by himself either.

 

[Kush77]

Ben Gordon is not overrated. Sorry. He was a good player, and in his best seasons- he's a borderline all-star. That's it. No one has ever said Gordon was an MVP candidate, so I'm not sure how people overrate him.

BG would look pretty good on this team right now. Considering the Bulls need some outside shooting.

There's the argument that "you won't win a title with Gordon as a starter" well guess what...this team isn't wining a title now or for the next 5 years with Miami in the way so it doesn't matter.

I've seen Bosh and Amare's names, I don't think those players are overrated. If those players are overrated then I guess our new PF is overrated too.

I do think Vince Carter is, I saw someone mention him.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Gordon is NOT a borderline All-star... he will never be an all-star. He chucks up way too many shots and is too small on defense. Those things, in and of themselves should be clear-cut enough to recognize.

 

[dougthonus]

Gordon is NOT a borderline All-star... he will never be an all-star. He chucks up way too many shots and is too small on defense. Those things, in and of themselves should be clear-cut enough to recognize.

Gordon certainly wasn't a borderline all-star last season, but he was fairly close two years ago, and a case could have been made for him. I also doubt he ever gets into the game, but I can't say I'd be shocked if he put together a year good enough to get in once.

Rip Hamilton made it three times, and Gordon in his best years put up better numbers than Hamilton in his all-star years.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

If you are referring to per-game numbers... I doubt that. And it hardly matters. Rip Hamilton, at his best, was way better of a player overall than Gordon...

 

[Kush77]

Gordon is NOT a borderline All-star... he will never be an all-star. He chucks up way too many shots and is too small on defense. Those things, in and of themselves should be clear-cut enough to recognize.

You need to read what I wrote.

and in his best seasons- he's a borderline all-star.

In 2006-2007, he was a borderline all-star along with Deng. In his best seasons he's a borderline all-star.

Borderline all-star, meaning - not an all-star, but on the border in his best seasons. Which last year was not one of them.

As for his defense, there's lots on guys who have made NBA all-star teams that don't play defense very well.

As for him chucking up too many shots...the most shots he's taken per game in his career is 16.3, last year he had a career low of 11.3.

In that year he took 16.3, his borderline all star season, he shot 45% from the field and 41% from threes. That's damn good. So I'll take that type of chucking, if that's what you want to call it. I'll call it scoring at a pretty good clip.

 

[TheStig]

Ah finally some people who see that BG isn't the Antichrist and didn't hold the bulls back.

 

[Kush77]

Ah finally some people who see that BG isn't the Antichrist and didn't hold the bulls back.

Yeah, that's another one of my favorite anti-Gordon arguments. That he somehow held Rose back.

But somehow, despite the shackles of the evil BG, Rose managed to win Rookie of the Year.

I guess if BG wasn't there Rose would have pulled a Ichiro and won ROY and MVP in 2008-2009.