Most Underrated/Overrated Players in the NBA?

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Ok, first off, the majority of those ISO's were SET PLAYS called by Del Negro. That was our offense that year. Pick n Roll, which blew ass til Miller arrived, ISO BG or ISO Rose. That was it. BG didn't hold anyone back. Honestly, this whole BG ball hog bs is simply that, BS. Now, I'll be the first to admit that BG played himself into some terrible shots sometimes, alot of which he hit though, but he wasn't this Marbury-type, me or no one else. He was second on the team in assists for cryin' out loud. He averaged 1 more spg than Rose. Yea he was taking too many shots.

And doesn't anyone remember how Rose was not all that great of a shooter when he came into the league? He was passable from mid-range but it did not get better until later in the year, when he was forced to get better at it since every player was sagging on screens. And I'm leaving out the best part. Floor spacing. Who spaces the floor when BG is not in the game, pre-Salmons? Deng? Hughes? Kirk? Noc? BG's longe range ability helped open the floor so Rose could drive. Why do you think he marched to the basket at will once we picked up Miller & Salmons? Cuz now there were 3 legitimate threats from the outside to clear the lane for Rose to do his thing.

I still can't understand how under-appreciated this guy was when he was here by the majority of Bulls fans. And I'm not one of these people who's like "He's better than Rip" or he's all-star worthy, but the guy is a very good player who puts the ball in the hoop & does it at the most important times, in the clutch, & that alone should give him more respect than he got the majority of his time here.

I never said Gordon didn't have unbelievably great shooting skills, despite his bad shot selection. All I really believe is that a guy like Gordon cannot get a team to a championship playing significant minutes because he will never beat the best teams with that kind of shot-selection. And, yes, like it or not BG-lovers...., he was very much a liability on defense. Maybe not the worst perimeter defender in the league... he wasn't Carlos Arroyo, Steve Blake, or Steve Nash... but he was down there... and because he guarded much taller guys typically... that made him very much into someone you needed to try to hide in that defense.

A guy like BG playing 24+ min on a supposed "title-contending team" is an oxymoron... because no team with BG playing that much time would ever win a championship.

 

[TheStig]

Kirk didn't help make lanes for Rose? Kirk is damn near as good a 3pt shooter as Gordon is. 38% career, and he is amazingly consistent throughout his career. He has never shot below 35% from outside. I don't understand why you all have to devalue every other player on the roster to boost Gordon's value. It makes no sense.

Did you miss the beginning of the season? The guy had an 11.6 per, he didn't help anyone with his 3-10 specials.

 

[houheffna]

You know when making the argument that BG is a one-dimensional player it's probably not a good idea to use other one-dimensional players to try and prove your point.

No...you didn't get the point. Ellis is a superior player to Gordon, he can do more on the basketball court. Martin is one-dimensional, he is just a better scorer than Gordon is.

Common Sense moment here...

Gordon is not the greatest scorer of all time, so just possibly, maybe, somebody can score better than he can and be one-dimensional. Just maybe there are superior players at that one dimension Gordon is so earth shatteringly great at in a lot of people's opinions.

But thanks for the advice...

 

[Bullsman24]

you don't seem to remember the games that gordon WON for us with his scoring as well.

is there some way i can draw a picture because i really want to. let's imagine it.

imagine the lane. there's noah. there's boozer. there's rose. 3 players.

now imagine last year. noah playing the high post. gordon drawing the defender out. one defender against rose. iso. easy to score.

 

[houheffna]

Did you miss the beginning of the season? The guy had an 11.6 per, he didn't help anyone with his 3-10 specials.

Right, and Gordon walked out every game on fire...OK!!!

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Kirk is in no way near as good a 3-pt shooter as BG is...

with that said, I like Hinrich over Gordon if I were picking between the two players. I always thought Luol Deng was better than BG too.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Right, and Gordon walked out every game on fire...OK!!!

to be fair, BG demands tons more attention on offense than Hinrich could ever dream of...

 

[Bullsman24]

you could say kobe has awful shot selection as well. but it goes in so who cares.

and about the boozer thing, i'm just using your words.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

you don't seem to remember the games that gordon WON for us with his scoring as well.

is there some way i can draw a picture because i really want to. let's imagine it.

imagine the lane. there's noah. there's boozer. there's rose. 3 players.

now imagine last year. noah playing the high post. gordon drawing the defender out. one defender against rose. iso. easy to score.

If you are suggesting that the Bulls should have re-signed BG despite knowing that it would have cost them any chance at Wade and James... I disagree. Even knowing that James and Wade were going to go to Miami... I still wouldn't automatically have re-signed Gordon. Probably, yes. But I wouldn't be giving him big minutes... that's for sure.

 

[Bullsman24]

i woulda been happy with room for one max. plus bg at 9 million is a great trading chip for a sign and trade as well.

 

[Diddy1122]

Kirk didn't help make lanes for Rose? Kirk is damn near as good a 3pt shooter as Gordon is. 38% career, and he is amazingly consistent throughout his career. He has never shot below 35% from outside. I don't understand why you all have to devalue every other player on the roster to boost Gordon's value. It makes no sense.

I don't mean to start this whole BG vs. Kirk bullshit again, and I'm not devaluing anyone, except maybe Hughes, my whole point was floor spacing. Maybe I should have said when Kirk was injured, would that have made it better, jeez. Either way, he shot 43% from the field on 8 shots, not that great. And in terms of floor spacing, none of the players I mention do it any better than BG, pre-Salmons, which you really need to keep in mind. This is simple fact. Look at the stats, I'm not just making crap up here. Miller, Salmons, Rose, & BG were our best shooters. And do I really need to pull out the quote from last year when Rose was alittle mad about the lack of floor spacing with BG no longer on the team?

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

you could say kobe has awful shot selection as well. but it goes in so who cares.

and about the boozer thing, i'm just using your words.

Um, the logic I was using was referring to BG needing too many iso's to be an effective scorer. That logic does not work with Rose+Boozer.

And Kobe does have bad shot-selection sometimes. It isn't nearly as horrible as it was when he entered the league. But the guy is flat-out money at making all kinds of shots that BG couldn't even dream of...

Even indirectly comparing Kobe to BG is ridiculous...

 

[TheStig]

Right, and Gordon walked out every game on fire...OK!!!

No but he certainly was a better three point threat and attracted defenders. I could barely watch Kirk clank open three after open three. I'm not really sure how you can argue the offensive prowess of a guy who barely shot 40%, had an 11.6 per and barely a 50% ts.

Those aren't starters numbers, let alone someone who is remotely an offensive threat. They are pathetic.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I think most Bulls fans either loved or hated BG.

I really liked him. But I was glad when he left because I think that the team was better off going in a different direction.

Getting back to the present, I don't think they are soooo worse off with Ronnie Brewer- believe it or not. Brewer brings mediocre shooting but very good defense and more athleticism.

Brewer = consistent 10+ point scorer at a low price.

 

[houheffna]

No but he certainly was a better three point threat and attracted defenders. I could barely watch Kirk clank open three after open three. I'm not really sure how you can argue the offensive prowess of a guy who barely shot 40%, had an 11.6 per and barely a 50% ts.

Those aren't starters numbers, let alone someone who is remotely an offensive threat. They are pathetic.

I never said Hinrich was a better shooter than Gordon from 3pt. I debated that there were other long range threats on the team before Salmons and Miller showed up.

As far as looking at Hinrich's stats, Gordon didn't have starter's production either. But you are doing exactly what I am talking about, devaluing Hinrich for the sake of boosting Gordon.

 

[Kush77]

I know you and others think Gordon is the second coming of Joe Dumars, but I have news for you...he ain't.

Never once entertained the thought that he was as good as Joe Dumars.

Joe Dumars held his own with MJ defensively and was a great scorer. He's a HOFer. Never once thought that.

Come on Hou, you know I not basketball Special person. :crazydance:

 

[Diddy1122]

No...you didn't get the point. Ellis is a superior player to Gordon, he can do more on the basketball court. Martin is one-dimensional, he is just a better scorer than Gordon is.

Common Sense moment here...

Gordon is not the greatest scorer of all time, so just possibly, maybe, somebody can score better than he can and be one-dimensional. Just maybe there are superior players at that one dimension Gordon is so earth shatteringly great at in a lot of people's opinions.

But thanks for the advice...

Did I say BG was better than those guys? Hmmm, don't believe I did. But since you're pushing the point I might as well throw some things your way. About the only thing Martin does better than BG, other than being 6-7, is get to the FT line. 10 attempts per, that's rather impressive. I'll give Martin that. But all 3 are the same friggin' player. And let's not forget the fact that Ellis led the damn league in minutes played last season at nearly 42 per & BG's had 1 season of 36+. And for the record, all 3 make nearly the same amount of salary, $11mill. Superior, eh I don't think so much, but thanks for the attempt at educating us lowly bball peons.

 

[Diddy1122]

I think most Bulls fans either loved or hated BG.

I really liked him. But I was glad when he left because I think that the team was better off going in a different direction.

Getting back to the present, I don't think they are soooo worse off with Ronnie Brewer- believe it or not. Brewer brings mediocre shooting but very good defense and more athleticism.

Brewer = consistent 10+ point scorer at a low price.

It always cracks me up that things inevitably come back to a BG debate with some fans. I'm like you. I loved him when he was here but I sure as hell was not going to have him back at $11-12mill per. We're a vastly improved team now thanks to him not being here. Not to knock his playing ability, but just for the fact that him not coming back netted us the low-post scorer we've needed since Curry left, as well as possibly the deepest bench in the NBA.

Agree on Brewer as well. I think he will surprise some people this year with his play.

 

[TheStig]

Did I say BG was better than those guys? Hmmm, don't believe I did. But since you're pushing the point I might as well throw some things your way. About the only thing Martin does better than BG, other than being 6-7, is get to the FT line. 10 attempts per, that's rather impressive. I'll give Martin that. But all 3 are the same friggin' player. And let's not forget the fact that Ellis led the damn league in minutes played last season at nearly 42 per & BG's had 1 season of 36+. And for the record, all 3 make nearly the same amount of salary, $11mill. Superior, eh I don't think so much, but thanks for the attempt at educating us lowly bball peons.

I believe the term is basketball retards.

 

[TheStig]

I never said Hinrich was a better shooter than Gordon from 3pt. I debated that there were other long range threats on the team before Salmons and Miller showed up.

As far as looking at Hinrich's stats, Gordon didn't have starter's production either. But you are doing exactly what I am talking about, devaluing Hinrich for the sake of boosting Gordon.

And the spin begins. He is a terrible offensive option. If you can't see it, I can't help you anymore.