Most Underrated/Overrated Players in the NBA?

[TheStig]

I think most Bulls fans either loved or hated BG.

I really liked him. But I was glad when he left because I think that the team was better off going in a different direction.

Getting back to the present, I don't think they are soooo worse off with Ronnie Brewer- believe it or not. Brewer brings mediocre shooting but very good defense and more athleticism.

Brewer = consistent 10+ point scorer at a low price.

I like Brewer. I think he is going to be good on the defensive and a poor mans deng on the offensive end. That being said, I'd be really happy having him backup BG. We are going to need that third scorer to take the next step.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Considering the low price for C.J. Watson and Ronnie Brewer, I think the Bulls are better off paying less, as a whole, for those two guys than having either Hinrich or Gordon at about $9-12M a year.

Both are great defenders, and Watson can shoot the 3-ball, has great agility, and he can make up some minutes at PG as well. The Bulls SG position is, imo, as good or better than it ever has been on the Bulls since Jordan left.

*note: maybe "solid" is a better choice to describe the Bulls SG situation than the word "good."

 

[houheffna]

And the spin begins. He is a terrible offensive option. If you can't see it, I can't help you anymore.

What spin?

Who are you? Stig O'Reilly?

He is not a "terrible offensive option" as you seem to think. Anyone who doesn't see what Kirk brings to the table offensively but lauds Gordon's "average" defense needs help.

You need to help yourself bruh.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I like Brewer. I think he is going to be good on the defensive and a poor mans deng on the offensive end. That being said, I'd be really happy having him backup BG. We are going to need that third scorer to take the next step.

You see... that's where I disagree. I would rather see BG come off the bench, because I believe he would be tons more effective playing with the 2nd unit. Brewer's defense and length would be more appropriate next to scorers like Deng and Rose, imo.

 

[TheStig]

What spin?

Who are you? Stig O'Reilly?

He is not a "terrible offensive option" as you seem to think. Anyone who doesn't see what Kirk brings to the table offensively but lauds Gordon's "average" defense needs help.

You need to help yourself bruh.

Check his numbers and find me a worse offensive starting 2 guard in the nba last year. 40.9%fg, 11.6 per and barely 50% ts. That is pathetic.

 

[houheffna]

I like Brewer. I think he is going to be good on the defensive and a poor mans deng on the offensive end. That being said, I'd be really happy having him backup BG. We are going to need that third scorer to take the next step.

Deng is the third scorer, 18ppg last year? I think he will do just fine. I just want him to step back and take a couple of threes a game and hit a third of them.

Gordon doesn't help you beat Miami...until they get that guy, I am happy with what is here...

 

[TheStig]

You see... that's where I disagree. I would rather see BG come off the bench, because I believe he would be tons more effective playing with the 2nd unit. Brewer's defense and length would be more appropriate next to scorers like Deng and Rose, imo.

Brewer is gonna gum up the works offensively a bit. He plays too much like Deng and there isn't any range in that starting group, you can cram the paint. Rose and Boozer running the p+r with BG on the side is deadly. You can't leave any of them.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Check his numbers and find me a worse offensive starting 2 guard in the nba last year. 40.9%fg, 11.6 per and barely 50% ts. That is pathetic.

A lot of that has to do with the fact that he doesn't have much business playing the 2-guard on offense. But, I agree, he wasn't the type of scorer that should be a 4th or even 5th scoring option on a championship-caliber team.

 

[TheStig]

Deng is the third scorer, 18ppg last year? I think he will do just fine. I just want him to step back and take a couple of threes a game and hit a third of them.

Gordon doesn't help you beat Miami...until they get that guy, I am happy with what is here...

Deng scored 17.6 ppg last year as the second option with no real third option. He isn't going to play as big of a role with more options or have plays called for him.

 

[houheffna]

Never once entertained the thought that he was as good as Joe Dumars.

Joe Dumars held his own with MJ defensively and was a great scorer. He's a HOFer. Never once thought that.

Come on Hou, you know I not basketball Special person. :crazydance:

Its nice that you showcase the dance you use in the pulpit when congregates fall asleep...lol

I don't think you believe it...but I have a hard time believing you didn't entertain it.

But that is why I said that Gordon was expendable. To play good top level basketball, he is not a necessity. I talked about Isiah/Dumars as the only midget backcourt to win a title in recent history. Rose has a chance to dominate on a Isiah like level...but Gordon won't ever be Joe Dumars...period.

 

[houheffna]

Deng scored 17.6 ppg last year as the second option with no real third option. He isn't going to play as big of a role with more options or have plays called for him.

As is the case with most third options...so I don't understand what the problem is...

He will have to learn on the job...I think he will be fine if he does some of the things I hope he does...

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Brewer is gonna gum up the works offensively a bit. He plays too much like Deng and there isn't any range in that starting group, you can cram the paint. Rose and Boozer running the p+r with BG on the side is deadly. You can't leave any of them.

I actually like the Rose-Brewer(sometimes Watson)-Deng perimeter on offense.

Brewer has better ball handling skills than Deng, but Deng has more shooting-range. You're right that both are similar offensive players, but I like Ronnie on one side of the three-point line (ready to attack the paint) while Deng lives in the opposite end corner (ready for the corner three- ready to sneak in for offensive rebounds). All the while having Noah fighting for position (beating the opposing center down the floor), while also asserting Rose and Boozer in the P-&-R game.

With Rose-BG-Deng, that kind of mucks you up defensively with BG trying to guard and/or chase a guy around who's 6'4 or over... and offensively I don't see him as being the guy who will beat you off screens. I think he's the type of player that really needs the ball in his hands to score much. I agree that he would spread the floor a little bit better than Brewer... but Brewer would get the offense higher percentage shots in general.

 

[TheStig]

I actually like the Rose-Brewer(sometimes Watson)-Deng perimeter on offense.

Brewer has better ball handling skills than Deng, but Deng has more shooting-range. You're right that both are similar offensive players, but I like Ronnie on one side of the three-point line (ready to attack the paint) while Deng lives in the opposite end corner (ready for the corner three- ready to sneak in for offensive rebounds). All the while having Noah fighting for position (beating the opposing center down the floor), while also asserting Rose and Boozer in the P-&-R game.

With Rose-BG-Deng, that kind of mucks you up defensively with BG trying to guard and/or chase a guy around who's 6'4 or over... and offensively I don't see him as being the guy who will beat you off screens. I think he's the type of player that really needs the ball in his hands to score much. I agree that he would spread the floor a little bit better than Brewer... but Brewer would get the offense higher percentage shots in general.

Eh I still disagree. Brewer or Deng only hurts you a bit but both really allow people to cram the paint. Your not really gonna care if they shoot open threes and brewer will only get to attack on the break.

Again, I can't disagree more. BG did ok guarding sgs in 08/09. Outside of getting lit up when injured by ray allen. No one seems to be able to show how he got lit up often. Which means he was ok.

 

[houheffna]

Did I say BG was better than those guys? Hmmm, don't believe I did. But since you're pushing the point I might as well throw some things your way. About the only thing Martin does better than BG, other than being 6-7, is get to the FT line. 10 attempts per, that's rather impressive. I'll give Martin that. But all 3 are the same friggin' player. And let's not forget the fact that Ellis led the damn league in minutes played last season at nearly 42 per & BG's had 1 season of 36+. And for the record, all 3 make nearly the same amount of salary, $11mill. Superior, eh I don't think so much, but thanks for the attempt at educating us lowly bball peons.

You like to use stats, look them up and dig a little deeper. I think you Gordonaires like to use the word efficient a lot...like in your sleep. Martin is more efficient than Gordon is, and has been over the course of his career.

As far as Ellis goes, he is more versatile and can play both guard positions. He is more athletic and can handle the ball better than Gordon can. Ellis guns the ball a lot and can be a detriment to the team with his attitude, but he is a good player. Matter of fact, I would take both GSW guards over Gordon in a heartbeat excluding intangibles.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

And remember... Brewer will get you plenty of steals and that will lead to even more high-percentage opportunities too. Points-off-turnovers and rebounds are critical when you are talking about teams trying to compete for a championship.

And the sweetest part is... Watson is even faster, also a good defender (like Ronnie) and gets steals too. That's a fast-break waiting to happen.

I like Watson as much as BG because he can hit the 3-ball too, and he's a better defender than BG, and can push the break. I think if we brought BG back to this team right now... he wouldn't average 20 min/gm... even though he would be our most "talented" SG.

^is that too unfair to say? I don't think so...

 

[TheStig]

As is the case with most third options...so I don't understand what the problem is...

He will have to learn on the job...I think he will be fine if he does some of the things I hope he does...

Deng isn't the third option on a contender.

 

[TheStig]

And remember... Brewer will get you plenty of steals and that will lead to even more high-percentage opportunities too. Points-off-turnovers and rebounds are critical when you are talking about teams trying to compete for a championship.

And the sweetest part is... Watson is even faster, also a good defender (like Ronnie) and gets steals too. That's a fast-break waiting to happen.

I like Watson as much as BG because he can hit the 3-ball too, and he's a better defender than BG, and can push the break. I think if we brought BG back to this team right now... he wouldn't average 20 min/gm... even though he would be our most "talented" SG.

^is that too unfair to say? I don't think so...

I Brewer was that type of force, Utah would have won a title. And that last statement, sounds a lot like what JR said, that he wouldn't play over kirk, salmons and pargo. He would easily start over Brewer and Watson. They are nice pieces but not wht you make them out to be.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Eh I still disagree. Brewer or Deng only hurts you a bit but both really allow people to cram the paint. Your not really gonna care if they shoot open threes and brewer will only get to attack on the break.

Again, I can't disagree more. BG did ok guarding sgs in 08/09. Outside of getting lit up when injured by ray allen. No one seems to be able to show how he got lit up often. Which means he was ok.

My response to that is really that BG wasn't as bad of a defender as guys like Nash or Blake... he was not going to get lit up as bad as those guys. But he was still a problem when you consider that he and D-Rose were very undersized and not very good together defensively. But you have to remember that the games where BG shot a very low percentage happened allllll the time... he was a high-risk/high-reward player that would currently be better suited to play with the Bulls 2nd unit against other teams' second units.

I believe Brewer once averaged 14 points-per-game... the Bulls would only have Rose and Deng (mediocre, at best) to shoot threes with that DR-RB-LD perimeter... but like I said... that is nothing new with the Bulls. They need high-percentage shots to be consistent. They will be shooting tons of FTs next year.

 

[houheffna]

Deng isn't the third option on a contender.

That is your opinion. Fact is Gordon plays with the Pistons, where he split time with Will Bynum.

I will take my chances with Deng.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I Brewer was that type of force, Utah would have won a title. And that last statement, sounds a lot like what JR said, that he wouldn't play over kirk, salmons and pargo. He would easily start over Brewer and Watson. They are nice pieces but not wht you make them out to be.

I didn't exactly mean that I believe the Bulls are title contenders now. I don't think that they are yet. But I do think that they play the type of style that consistent teams need to play in order to go in that direction.

I actually think that Deng is the starter that most needs replacing. As much as I like him as a player, I believe the Bulls need a 3-pt shooting slasher in his place. One who could rebound and defend well would be ideal, as well.