Most Underrated/Overrated Players in the NBA?

RamiTheBullsFan

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You need to read what I wrote.

and in his best seasons- he's a borderline all-star.

In 2006-2007, he was a borderline all-star along with Deng. In his best seasons he's a borderline all-star.

Borderline all-star, meaning - not an all-star, but on the border in his best seasons. Which last year was not one of them.

As for his defense, there's lots on guys who have made NBA all-star teams that don't play defense very well.

As for him chucking up too many shots...the most shots he's taken per game in his career is 16.3, last year he had a career low of 11.3.

In that year he took 16.3, his borderline all star season, he shot 45% from the field and 41% from threes. That's damn good. So I'll take that type of chucking, if that's what you want to call it. I'll call it scoring at a pretty good clip.

The problem with that^ is that Gordon was never a borderline all-star. In order to be a borderline all-star, you need to be in the discussion to be in the all-star game. Gordon never was in that discussion outside of biased Chicago fans...

He wasn't that good. Not horrible. Just not very good.
 

TheStig

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The problem with that^ is that Gordon was never a borderline all-star. In order to be a borderline all-star, you need to be in the discussion to be in the all-star game. Gordon never was in that discussion outside of biased Chicago fans...

He wasn't that good. Not horrible. Just not very good.

Just because allstar weekend snubbed him doesn't discount the argument. I'd say there is a toss up between rip and ben in 06-07. I'd also give him a look in 08-09 over Mo williams advertisement campaing and Ray Allen. Look at the numbers. How can this guy not be invited to the 3 pt challange?

Player Comparison Finder | Basketball-Reference.com
 

Kush77

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If you are referring to per-game numbers... I doubt that. And it hardly matters. Rip Hamilton, at his best, was way better of a player overall than Gordon...

BG vs. Gordon. I'm not sure. Hamilton was part of a title winning team, you can't take that from him. Is he a better defender than Gordon? Yeah, he's about 6 inches taller and that helps automatically. It also helps when you play in front of the Wallaces when they were both still in their primes.

But that extra six inches didn't translate into more steals or blocks.

BG career steals and blocks - 0.8 and 0.1
Rip's steals and blocks - 0.8 and 0.2

As for scoring, BG is a far superior long range shooter. Rip is a better mid range shooter.

That extra 6 inches doesn't result in many more trips to the FT line.
Rip career FT attempts - 4.5
Gordon - 4.1

Best scoring season, Gordon - 21.4 while taking 16.3 shots per game
Hamilton - 20.1 while taking 16.5 shots per game.

Career shooting %
Hamilton - 45% FG, 85 FT, 34 3pt
Gordon - 43%, 85 FT, 40 3pt

Gordon has a track record of hitting shots in the clutch too. That's something I think is important, other don't seem to think so.

Overall, Hamilton and Gordon are similar statistically. One is a better long range shooter, the other is a better mid-range guy.

As a Bulls fan, who would you want as your 2-guard right now given the choice? For the Bulls I'd go with the long range threat over another Luol Deng type.

I do hope the Bulls can get Rudy Fernandez.
 

TheStig

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Yeah, that's another one of my favorite anti-Gordon arguments. That he somehow held Rose back.

But somehow, despite the shackles of the evil BG, Rose managed to win Rookie of the Year.

I guess if BG wasn't there Rose would have pulled a Ichiro and won ROY and MVP in 2008-2009.

Lol, glad to see you around Rev.

Reading a lot of this fourm takes me back to discussions about him in his 2nd year on real gm. He was either world beater or garbage. The guy isn't going to be Wade but he is a solid starter and a scorer. I'd love to have him on this team, he has a truly unique skill set and has worked on his weaknesses to not be a liability.
 

Kush77

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The problem with that^ is that Gordon was never a borderline all-star. In order to be a borderline all-star, you need to be in the discussion to be in the all-star game. Gordon never was in that discussion outside of biased Chicago fans...

He wasn't that good. Not horrible. Just not very good.

But if you compare his numbers to guys that made it that year (Deng too), and factor in that the Bulls were one of the top teams in the East, which sometime plays a factor, sometime not, I think he was a borderline allstar. That particular year, his numbers were similar to that of Rip Hamilton and Caron Butler. Since his number were similar, I think he was a borderline all-star. But that was also the year Joe Johnson broke out and Arenas was good. So it was a strong year for 2-guards.

Dana Barros was an all-star one year lol. In a weak all-star class, he could be in.

He was bad last year. That's why I said "in his best seasons."

I'm not declaring that BG will make the AS team, but I also don't think he forgot how to play basketball like some people here...cough cough...Houheffna...cough cough. :smh:
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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BG vs. Gordon. I'm not sure. Hamilton was part of a title winning team, you can't take that from him. Is he a better defender than Gordon? Yeah, he's about 6 inches taller and that helps automatically. It also helps when you play in front of the Wallaces when they were both still in their primes.

But that extra six inches didn't translate into more steals or blocks.

BG career steals and blocks - 0.8 and 0.1
Rip's steals and blocks - 0.8 and 0.2

As for scoring, BG is a far superior long range shooter. Rip is a better mid range shooter.

That extra 6 inches doesn't result in many more trips to the FT line.
Rip career FT attempts - 4.5
Gordon - 4.1

Best scoring season, Gordon - 21.4 while taking 16.3 shots per game
Hamilton - 20.1 while taking 16.5 shots per game.

Career shooting %
Hamilton - 45% FG, 85 FT, 34 3pt
Gordon - 43%, 85 FT, 40 3pt

Gordon has a track record of hitting shots in the clutch too. That's something I think is important, other don't seem to think so.

Overall, Hamilton and Gordon are similar statistically. One is a better long range shooter, the other is a better mid-range guy.

As a Bulls fan, who would you want as your 2-guard right now given the choice? For the Bulls I'd go with the long range threat over another Luol Deng type.

I do hope the Bulls can get Rudy Fernandez.

Rip Hamilton, in his day, was probably the best player moving without-the-ball of any player since Reggie Miller. He also had better playmaking skills than Gordon. Sure, Gordon was dominant behind the 3 pt line. But who is going to be more consistent- a great three-point shooter or arguably the best mid-range shooter in his prime?

Even today, it's hard for me to put BG>Rip, but I gave him that much credit. Rip is a shell of what he used to be.
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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But if you compare his numbers to guys that made it that year (Deng too), and factor in that the Bulls were one of the top teams in the East, which sometime plays a factor, sometime not, I think he was a borderline allstar. That particular year, his numbers were similar to that of Rip Hamilton and Caron Butler. Since his number were similar, I think he was a borderline all-star. But that was also the year Joe Johnson broke out and Arenas was good. So it was a strong year for 2-guards.

Dana Barros was an all-star one year lol. In a weak all-star class, he could be in.

He was bad last year. That's why I said "in his best seasons."

I'm not declaring that BG will make the AS team, but I also don't think he forgot how to play basketball like some people here...cough cough...Houheffna...cough cough. :smh:

Yeah, I think we just have different interpretations of what a borderline all-star is. Dana Barros was a hell of a player in his day though...
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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About the 'BG holding Rose back' thing... I agree that he did, to an extent. BG was taking too many shots in isolation that Rose would have been better off taking. It had little to do with Rose's development as a player... just that Rose was always waaayyyy better than BG...
 

dougthonus

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If you are referring to per-game numbers... I doubt that. And it hardly matters. Rip Hamilton, at his best, was way better of a player overall than Gordon...

Gordon scored more points on a higher TS% in 08/09 than Hamilton did in two of his three all-star seasons.

Your second statement is a matter of opinion that I simply don't agree with. Rip Hamilton simply had vastly superior teammates and a better team. In reality, I think Hamilton is maybe the worst player ever to have three all-star appearances, but he was on an awesome team in a terrible Eastern conference.

Replace Hamilton with a prime Gordon in those years, and he's doing the same thing, probably scoring more because of his three point shooting.
 

Chi-Town Brahma

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About the 'BG holding Rose back' thing... I agree that he did, to an extent. BG was taking too many shots in isolation that Rose would have been better off taking. It had little to do with Rose's development as a player... just that Rose was always waaayyyy better than BG...

Dude, that 'Zo gif is completely awesome! :D
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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Hamilton
Year Team G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
00-01 WAS 78 42 32.3 0.438 0.274 0.868 1.0 2.1 3.1 2.9 1.0 0.1 2.58 2.60 18.1
01-02 WAS 63 57 34.9 0.435 0.381 0.890 1.2 2.3 3.4 2.7 0.6 0.2 2.10 2.16 20.0
02-03 DET 82 82 32.2 0.443 0.269 0.833 1.1 2.8 3.9 2.5 0.8 0.2 2.44 3.04 19.7
03-04 DET 78 78 35.6 0.455 0.265 0.868 1.0 2.6 3.6 4.0 1.3 0.2 2.69 2.85 17.6
04-05 DET 76 76 38.5 0.440 0.305 0.858 1.0 2.9 3.9 4.9 1.0 0.2 2.86 3.05 18.7
05-06 DET 80 80 35.3 0.491 0.458 0.845 1.1 2.1 3.2 3.4 0.6 0.2 2.16 2.59 20.1
06-07 DET 75 75 36.8 0.468 0.341 0.861 1.0 2.8 3.8 3.8 0.8 0.2 2.12 3.09 19.8
07-08 DET 72 72 33.7 0.484 0.440 0.833 1.0 2.2 3.3 4.2 1.0 0.1 1.83 2.38 17.3
08-09 DET 67 51 34.0 0.447 0.368 0.848 0.7 2.4 3.1 4.4 0.6 0.1 1.99 2.63 18.3
09-10 DET 46 46 33.7 0.409 0.297 0.846 0.7 2.0 2.7 4.4 0.6 0.1 2.50 2.50 18.1
Career -- 788 671 33.4 0.451 0.343 0.852 0.9 2.3 3.3 3.5 0.8 0.2 2.23 2.65 17.9

Gordon
Year Team G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
06-07 CHI 82 51 33.0 0.455 0.413 0.864 0.4 2.7 3.1 3.6 0.8 0.2 3.04 3.07 21.4
07-08 CHI 72 27 31.8 0.434 0.410 0.908 0.6 2.5 3.1 3.0 0.8 0.1 2.08 2.38 18.6
08-09 CHI 82 76 36.6 0.455 0.410 0.864 0.6 2.8 3.5 3.4 0.9 0.3 2.44 2.24 20.7
09-10 DET 62 17 27.9 0.416 0.321 0.861 0.4 1.5 1.9 2.7 0.8 0.1 1.90 2.37 13.8
Career -- 460 221 30.9 0.435 0.404 0.859 0.5 2.3 2.9 3.0 0.8 0.2 2.35 2.64 17.9

Those career stats pretty much speak for itself... but even those broad stats don't get into "good shot selection." Nor do they get in-depth about defensive play.

Comparing Rip to BG really is the reason why so many people say BG is overrated... The Pistons wouldn't've been nearly as good with a Billups-BG backcourt instead of the Billups-Hamilton one...
 
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Bullsman24

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About the 'BG holding Rose back' thing... I agree that he did, to an extent. BG was taking too many shots in isolation that Rose would have been better off taking. It had little to do with Rose's development as a player... just that Rose was always waaayyyy better than BG...

aw man, we better get rid of that scrub boozer then, he'll take shots away from rose
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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aw man, we better get rid of that scrub boozer then, he'll take shots away from rose

That's not how basketball works man... that's a classic sign that you don't actually watch the games.

Boozer will open up Rose to work along the perimeter with his low-post presence. And Rose will FINALLY have a decent guy to work with in the pick-and-roll game...
 

houheffna

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But if you compare his numbers to guys that made it that year (Deng too), and factor in that the Bulls were one of the top teams in the East, which sometime plays a factor, sometime not, I think he was a borderline allstar. That particular year, his numbers were similar to that of Rip Hamilton and Caron Butler. Since his number were similar, I think he was a borderline all-star. But that was also the year Joe Johnson broke out and Arenas was good. So it was a strong year for 2-guards.

Dana Barros was an all-star one year lol. In a weak all-star class, he could be in.

He was bad last year. That's why I said "in his best seasons."

I'm not declaring that BG will make the AS team, but I also don't think he forgot how to play basketball like some people here...cough cough...Houheffna...cough cough. :smh:

I said Gordon is one-dimensional. I never said he forgot how to play. I don't think he is as great as you think he is. Nor do I think he is good enough to lament over his leaving.

I wouldn't mind if the Bulls got him...to come off the bench. You don't win with undersized back courts. Especially if neither is good defensively. I know you and others think Gordon is the second coming of Joe Dumars, but I have news for you...he ain't. Not even close. At this point, he gets paid more than superior players at the same position...Ellis, Martin for example. I would rather have Anthony Morrow at 1/5 of Gordon's contract. He is the best long range shooter in the NBA.
 

Bullsman24

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That's not how basketball works man... that's a classic sign that you don't actually watch the games.

Boozer will open up Rose to work along the perimeter with his low-post presence. And Rose will FINALLY have a decent guy to work with in the pick-and-roll game...

what spaces the floor? 3 point shooters. what is ben gordon? a fantastic 3 point shooter.
 

Diddy1122

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About the 'BG holding Rose back' thing... I agree that he did, to an extent. BG was taking too many shots in isolation that Rose would have been better off taking. It had little to do with Rose's development as a player... just that Rose was always waaayyyy better than BG...

Ok, first off, the majority of those ISO's were SET PLAYS called by Del Negro. That was our offense that year. Pick n Roll, which blew ass til Miller arrived, ISO BG or ISO Rose. That was it. BG didn't hold anyone back. Honestly, this whole BG ball hog bs is simply that, BS. Now, I'll be the first to admit that BG played himself into some terrible shots sometimes, alot of which he hit though, but he wasn't this Marbury-type, me or no one else. He was second on the team in assists for cryin' out loud. He averaged 1 more spg than Rose. Yea he was taking too many shots.

And doesn't anyone remember how Rose was not all that great of a shooter when he came into the league? He was passable from mid-range but it did not get better until later in the year, when he was forced to get better at it since every player was sagging on screens. And I'm leaving out the best part. Floor spacing. Who spaces the floor when BG is not in the game, pre-Salmons? Deng? Hughes? Kirk? Noc? BG's longe range ability helped open the floor so Rose could drive. Why do you think he marched to the basket at will once we picked up Miller & Salmons? Cuz now there were 3 legitimate threats from the outside to clear the lane for Rose to do his thing.

I still can't understand how under-appreciated this guy was when he was here by the majority of Bulls fans. And I'm not one of these people who's like "He's better than Rip" or he's all-star worthy, but the guy is a very good player who puts the ball in the hoop & does it at the most important times, in the clutch, & that alone should give him more respect than he got the majority of his time here.
 

Diddy1122

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I said Gordon is one-dimensional. I never said he forgot how to play. I don't think he is as great as you think he is. Nor do I think he is good enough to lament over his leaving.
At this point, he gets paid more than superior players at the same position...Ellis, Martin for example.

You know when making the argument that BG is a one-dimensional player it's probably not a good idea to use other one-dimensional players to try and prove your point.
 

houheffna

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Ok, first off, the majority of those ISO's were SET PLAYS called by Del Negro. That was our offense that year. Pick n Roll, which blew ass til Miller arrived, ISO BG or ISO Rose. That was it. BG didn't hold anyone back. Honestly, this whole BG ball hog bs is simply that, BS. Now, I'll be the first to admit that BG played himself into some terrible shots sometimes, alot of which he hit though, but he wasn't this Marbury-type, me or no one else. He was second on the team in assists for cryin' out loud. He averaged 1 more spg than Rose. Yea he was taking too many shots.

And doesn't anyone remember how Rose was not all that great of a shooter when he came into the league? He was passable from mid-range but it did not get better until later in the year, when he was forced to get better at it since every player was sagging on screens. And I'm leaving out the best part. Floor spacing. Who spaces the floor when BG is not in the game, pre-Salmons? Deng? Hughes? Kirk? Noc? BG's longe range ability helped open the floor so Rose could drive. Why do you think he marched to the basket at will once we picked up Miller & Salmons? Cuz now there were 3 legitimate threats from the outside to clear the lane for Rose to do his thing.

I still can't understand how under-appreciated this guy was when he was here by the majority of Bulls fans. And I'm not one of these people who's like "He's better than Rip" or he's all-star worthy, but the guy is a very good player who puts the ball in the hoop & does it at the most important times, in the clutch, & that alone should give him more respect than he got the majority of his time here.

Kirk didn't help make lanes for Rose? Kirk is damn near as good a 3pt shooter as Gordon is. 38% career, and he is amazingly consistent throughout his career. He has never shot below 35% from outside. I don't understand why you all have to devalue every other player on the roster to boost Gordon's value. It makes no sense.
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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what spaces the floor? 3 point shooters. what is ben gordon? a fantastic 3 point shooter.

3-point shooting helps spread the floor, yes, but Gordon was never extremely good at creating open 3 pt shots for himself while Rose had the ball in his hands. He wasn't very fast and loved to work in iso-mode because, the fact is, he was a small guy. He needed to create shots with his own dribble most of the time just so he could see over the defender. Most of the shots he took were (by most terms) bad shots... but lucky for him he could shoot unbelievably well.

Boozer will open up Rose way, way more than Gordon ever did with the inside-outide game and with setting screens.

And, most importantly, the ball will be in Rose's hands, where it belongs. You guys don't seem to remember the games where Gordon's terrible shooting cost us the win (the last one being Game 7 of the BOS series).
 

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