Name all the shooting guards better than Gordon

[dougthonus]

Shakes wrote:

TheStig wrote:

Shakes wrote:

If you have a team situation that can keep him (relatively) sane and you need D more than O from the SG spot I'd also have Ron Artest ahead of Gordon. So he's on the maybe list for me.

Ron Artest isn't a sg. He is just playing there because Tmac is out and the matchups play out better. Ron Ron has played sf his whole career.

You are what position you play. My point is that for at least some teams, Ron Artest is a better fit at SG than Ben.

If you only needed defense from your shooting guard then maybe you could argue Artest, but that's a really sketchy argument to me.

That's like saying "Well if you had Chris Paul on your team then Raja Bell would be a better second guard than Steve Nash". It's kind of true, but the amount of teams in the league that don't want a deadly scorer at the 2 guard position and would prefer a pure defender has to be near zero.

 

[JimmyBulls]

When Brand comes back Iggy will be the shooting guard. He's a SG/SF swingman, but with the team at full strength he's a two.

 

[dougthonus]

JimmyBulls wrote:

There is no debate with the players my list. They are better than Gordon no matter how you try to spin Gordon's worth.

As far as Barbosa is concerned, they are both one tool players and Barbosa is a better more complete scorer. I like BG7, but i'm not blind to the facts.

If there's no debate, it's because you don't want to entertain one. Gordon has been statistically better than many of the players on your list, so I'm not sure how it's not debatable given that you would be relying entirely on subjective evidence.

I'm not talking in PPG either, but advanced statistical metrics.

 

[TheStig]

JimmyBulls wrote:

There is no debate with the players my list. They are better than Gordon no matter how you try to spin Gordon's worth.

As far as Barbosa is concerned, they are both one tool players and Barbosa is a better more complete scorer. I like BG7, but i'm not blind to the facts.

Lol, I am not spinning anything. BG is much better than Barbosa in almost every facet of the game. BG beat Barbosa in ever statistical category except fg% and steals. I am sure if BG had nash feeding him wide open shots he could close the gap in fg% easily. But he beat him in ppg, rpg, apg, fta, 3pt%, blocks and is younger by a year. BG is also a much better defender than Barbosa. BG is clearly a better player. BG is a much better scorer also and always and will be.

 

[TheStig]

JimmyBulls wrote:

When Brand comes back Iggy will be the shooting guard. He's a SG/SF swingman, but with the team at full strength he's a two.

But he has always played much more SF than SG for them. I'm not making it up, thats where Philly's coach is playing him. His game is also more suited to an sf than sg.

 

[OnePointSeven]

I like Doug's initial list with one change, I'd put Kevin Martin as a for sure. His eFG% is a little lower, but his PER is consistently higher and overall I think he's just a better player.

OJ Mayo and Eric Gordon could be better, but its too early to say so.

 

[dougthonus]

OnePointSeven wrote:

I like Doug's initial list with one change, I'd put Kevin Martin as a for sure. His eFG% is a little lower, but his PER is consistently higher and overall I think he's just a better player.

OJ Mayo and Eric Gordon could be better, but its too early to say so.

Kevin Martin has never been good on a good team though. Gordon's been arguably the best player on the Bulls since his arrival. That team has won 47, 41, 49, 33, and 41 games. Martin's been the best player on teams winning in the 30s for games and has really only been the best guy on his team for 2.5 years.

Not to say Martin is definitely worse, just the fact that he's never been able to do anything with the Kings makes him a maybe for me.

 

[Shakes]

dougthonus wrote:

Shakes wrote:

TheStig wrote:

Shakes wrote:

If you have a team situation that can keep him (relatively) sane and you need D more than O from the SG spot I'd also have Ron Artest ahead of Gordon. So he's on the maybe list for me.

Ron Artest isn't a sg. He is just playing there because Tmac is out and the matchups play out better. Ron Ron has played sf his whole career.

You are what position you play. My point is that for at least some teams, Ron Artest is a better fit at SG than Ben.

If you only needed defense from your shooting guard then maybe you could argue Artest, but that's a really sketchy argument to me.

That's like saying "Well if you had Chris Paul on your team then Raja Bell would be a better second guard than Steve Nash". It's kind of true, but the amount of teams in the league that don't want a deadly scorer at the 2 guard position and would prefer a pure defender has to be near zero.

Unless you're a complete superstar you build the team around, isn't anyone's value relative? I think there's a lot of teams who already have an established #1 scorer who (rightly or wrongly) would be wary of BG because they'd be unsure how he'd fit in with them.

That said if you're talking who wants players, I don't think many want to risk Artest even if he's been a good citizen this year.

 

[JimmyBulls]

Kobe- No Debate
Wade- No Debate
Roy- No Debate
Johnson- No Debate
Manu- No Debate
Martin- No Debate
Iggy- No Debate
Carter- Aging but No Debate
Redd- Injury hit season but no debate
Hamilton- Jerked around by the Pistons this year, but no debate
Barbosa- This is probably the only one where you can make a argument for Gordon. But I like Barbosa's game better
Allen- No Debate.

 

[charity stripe]

JimmyBulls wrote:

Kobe- No Debate
Wade- No Debate
Roy- No Debate
Johnson- No Debate
Manu- No Debate
Martin- No Debate
Iggy- No Debate
Carter- Aging but No Debate
Redd- Injury hit season but no debate
Hamilton- Jerked around by the Pistons this year, but no debate
Barbosa- This is probably the only one where you can make a argument for Gordon. But I like Barbosa's game better
Allen- No Debate.

Explain how you think there is no debate, because most people seem to think there is some debate.

 

[JimmyBulls]

Pick someone you think Gordon is better than.

 

[OnePointSeven]

dougthonus wrote:

OnePointSeven wrote:

I like Doug's initial list with one change, I'd put Kevin Martin as a for sure. His eFG% is a little lower, but his PER is consistently higher and overall I think he's just a better player.

OJ Mayo and Eric Gordon could be better, but its too early to say so.

Kevin Martin has never been good on a good team though. Gordon's been arguably the best player on the Bulls since his arrival. That team has won 47, 41, 49, 33, and 41 games. Martin's been the best player on teams winning in the 30s for games and has really only been the best guy on his team for 2.5 years.

Not to say Martin is definitely worse, just the fact that he's never been able to do anything with the Kings makes him a maybe for me.

You're the GM of an expansion team and you have the choice of taking BG or Martin as you starting SG. Who do you take?

 

[TheStig]

JimmyBulls wrote:

Kobe- No Debate
Wade- No Debate
Roy- No Debate
Johnson- No Debate
Manu- No Debate
Martin- No Debate
Iggy- No Debate
Carter- Aging but No Debate
Redd- Injury hit season but no debate
Hamilton- Jerked around by the Pistons this year, but no debate
Barbosa- This is probably the only one where you can make a argument for Gordon. But I like Barbosa's game better
Allen- No Debate.

I will happily debate you on Manu, Martin, Carter, Redd, Hamilton, Barbosa and Allen. None of those are clear either way and BG had a better year then all of them this year. And Iggy plays SF, why don't you just throw Lebron or Paul Pierce in for good measure. Also, most of the debatable ones I have listed are older and in there prime, keep in mind, BG hasn't hit his prime like most of the older ones have. And players like Mani, Carter, Redd and Allen are clearly getting worse, while BG is getting better.

 

[dougthonus]

You're the GM of an expansion team and you have the choice of taking BG or Martin as you starting SG. Who do you take?

I don't know. That's why I think it could go either way.

I'd probably lean towards Gordon given that I know he can hit clutch shots, play in big games, mesh with other teammates to form a good team, and he's never been hurt.

However, I'm not going to say it's nuts to say Martin either.

 

[Basghetti80]

Personally I take Martin but the drop off is not severe. I am a Kevin Martin fan though and would love to see him get a chance to play outside of Sacramento.

 

[Daniel7123]

I think that the question could be better defined as "Name all the SG who you would rather have on the bulls right now than gordon"
cause then the list of
Kobe- No Debate
Wade- No Debate
Roy- No Debate
Johnson- No Debate
Manu- No Debate
Martin- No Debate
Iggy- No Debate
Carter- Aging but No Debate
Redd- Injury hit season but no debate
Hamilton- Jerked around by the Pistons this year, but no debate
Barbosa- This is probably the only one where you can make a argument for Gordon. But I like Barbosa's game better
Allen- No Debate.
becomes...

Guys who are just way too good...
Kobe- No Debate
Wade- No Debate
Roy- No Debate
Johnson- No Debate
Iggy- No Debate (if he actually played a sg but I believe he is a sf... and a damn good one at that!)

Guys who I would take about equally

Martin- = to gordon in skill and scoring ability -injury prone +he is taller (which pre john salmons days would have moved him up a tier)

Guys who are on this list because of their former greatness but are now past their prime and therefore would peak with rose and thus not guys who we would ever trade BG for ...
[/u]Manu- too old
Carter- too old
Redd- Injury hit and too old
Hamilton- I would say better than gordon but too much older
Allen- former great of the game but way way too old... despite clearly still having a few games left in him (51, thats just reticules)


And guy who SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN ON THIS LIST

Barbosa- come on he is a piece of **** not even in the same league as these other guys

 

[dougthonus]

JimmyBulls wrote:

Kobe- No Debate
Wade- No Debate
Roy- No Debate
Johnson- No Debate

Agree.

Manu- No Debate

I gave it 3 years, Manu will be 32, 33, and 34, and is coming off a major injury. If healthy he's better, but he was only able to play 27 minutes a game this year before he missed the rest of the season.

Martin- No Debate

Martin is better statistically, however, in all his great years the most the Kings have ever won is 33 games. That's with Mike Bibby, Brad Miller, Ron Artest as teammates, so let's not act like there's never been any talent there.

Iggy- No Debate

He's more of a SF and isn't nearly as good a scorer. He's a better defender, but scoring is a lot harder to find than defense, especially perimeter defense.

Carter- Aging but No Debate

Gordon had a higher scoring rate with a higher efficiency, and it's 3 years, no way is carter better for the next 3 years given he had a worse scoring year this year.

Redd- Injury hit season but no debate

What does Redd do that Gordon doesn't? Same FG%, lesser 3P%, lesser efficiency, same scoring rate, rebound rate, assist rate roughly (actually slightly worse in both boards and assists), also doesn't play defense, is older, and banged up every year. No way is he better than Gordon for the next 3 years.

Hamilton- Jerked around by the Pistons this year, but no debate

Lower shooting %, lower efficiency, lower volume, gets fewer boards, slightly more assists, is much older. No way is he better than Gordon over the next 3 years.

Barbosa- This is probably the only one where you can make a argument for Gordon. But I like Barbosa's game better

Has never had a season that's touched what Gordon has done. Ever.

Allen- No Debate.

Lower scoring rate, higher efficiency though he's not a first option on his team. Maybe better this year, no way he's better over the next three, they're basically the same player right now.

 

[TheStig]

dougthonus wrote:

JimmyBulls wrote:

Kobe- No Debate
Wade- No Debate
Roy- No Debate
Johnson- No Debate

Agree.

Manu- No Debate

I gave it 3 years, Manu will be 32, 33, and 34, and is coming off a major injury. If healthy he's better, but he was only able to play 27 minutes a game this year before he missed the rest of the season.

Martin- No Debate

Martin is better statistically, however, in all his great years the most the Kings have ever won is 33 games. That's with Mike Bibby, Brad Miller, Ron Artest as teammates, so let's not act like there's never been any talent there.

Iggy- No Debate

He's more of a SF and isn't nearly as good a scorer. He's a better defender, but scoring is a lot harder to find than defense, especially perimeter defense.

Carter- Aging but No Debate

Gordon had a higher scoring rate with a higher efficiency, and it's 3 years, no way is carter better for the next 3 years given he had a worse scoring year this year.

Redd- Injury hit season but no debate

What does Redd do that Gordon doesn't? Same FG%, lesser 3P%, lesser efficiency, same scoring rate, rebound rate, assist rate roughly (actually slightly worse in both boards and assists), also doesn't play defense, is older, and banged up every year. No way is he better than Gordon for the next 3 years.

Hamilton- Jerked around by the Pistons this year, but no debate

Lower shooting %, lower efficiency, lower volume, gets fewer boards, slightly more assists, is much older. No way is he better than Gordon over the next 3 years.

Barbosa- This is probably the only one where you can make a argument for Gordon. But I like Barbosa's game better

Has never had a season that's touched what Gordon has done. Ever.

Allen- No Debate.

Lower scoring rate, higher efficiency though he's not a first option on his team. Maybe better this year, no way he's better over the next three, they're basically the same player right now.

Can't really argue with any of that. Well said.

 

[Shakes]

dougthonus wrote:

Redd- Injury hit season but no debate

What does Redd do that Gordon doesn't? Same FG%, lesser 3P%, lesser efficiency, same scoring rate, rebound rate, assist rate roughly (actually slightly worse in both boards and assists), also doesn't play defense, is older, and banged up every year. No way is he better than Gordon for the next 3 years.

If you include turnovers then Redd is more efficient than Ben Gordon. Gordon has become pretty good at not turning the ball over, but Redd has the lowest career turnover percentage in NBA history.

Overall as you say I'd prefer Gordon for age, injury history and defense, but I'd think Redd has a slight offensive edge.

 

[pinkizdead]

JimmyBulls wrote:

Pick someone you think Gordon is better than.

off the top of my head here are some starting sg that gordon is better than
lee
artest-if you want to call him that...
jr smith - gordon makes better decessions. they both take wild shots, but gordon has never shot us out of a game.
ray allen- if gordon was healthy throughout the series,i dont think allen would have exploded as often as he did.

the jett- ben is more clutch. also jett plays with dirk. ben plays with tyrus. that should count for something.
mayo- he's way to selfish.
mo pete/r. butler
m. finley/ginobli - one's way too old. they other is hurt way too often. gordon has been healthy most of the year.
foye
thabo
almond? brewer? who is utah starting now days? whoever it is... i'm sure gordon is better than him
ellis? are they playing crawford? who did gs start as their two guard? i've forgotten? ellis and gordon are both undersized for the 2. Gordon has better range and shooting than ellis.
eric gordon.
barbosa
kevin martin. he's a loser.
nick young
raja bell
rip. he's too old.
delonte west.
hughes
willie green
who did the raptors play as their two? kapono?
iggy- as a two guard i'd rather have gordon. iggy is better at sf. it's why green gets minutes. seriously...would you start green?

guards that are definately better than gordon- wade, roy, kobe, johnson

guards who might better than gordon carter redd