Name all the shooting guards better than Gordon

[dunkside.com]

dougthonus wrote:

List all the SGs in the league who are better than Gordon on the whole for the next 3 seasons:

For sures
Kobe Bryant
Dwyane Wade
Joe Johnson
Brandon Roy
Stephen Jackson
Josh Howard (if you consider him a SG)
Andre Iguodala (there's no maybe - he has more size, more athleticism, better D)
Kevin Martin (yes, really better - gordon is just a scorer, and kevin martin is a better scorer)
Manu Ginobili (even if he's slowed down by injury, he can still shoot and he's a much better play maker)
Richard Hamilton (considering his defense, I'd say he's still better)

Maybes
Ray Allen (aging) but still better
Michael Redd (injuries / aging / really better?)
OJ Mayo (possible, but not right now)
Leandro Barbosa
Monta Ellis

Probably Nots, but not entirely out of possibility
John Salmons
Eric Gordon
Russell Westbrook

Am I missing anyone? I put Gordon behind the first 4 guys for sure, but more or less in the middle with the next group with those guys having similar impact via different means of play.

my changes in bold.

i think gordon is overrated right now because of his clutch shooting in this series.
however you have to remember he wasn't even the leader of a team that finished 7th in the weak east.

is not like he was leading his team like some of these guys did (iguodala this season, ray allen in years past, redd in years past) or like he was a major part of a very successful team (ray allen, rip hamilton in years past, josh howard in years past)

he can't be the 1st option on a good team and i doubt a team with him as the 2nd option would be championship material. he's somewhere between a 2nd option and a role player but by no means is he top 10 SG in the nba

i'd say he's very similar to barbosa and monta ellis, with less handles and less penetrating abilities compared to these 2 but much better in clutch situations.

 

[dougthonus]

i think gordon is overrated right now because of his clutch shooting in this series.
however you have to remember he wasn't even the leader of a team that finished 7th in the weak east.

is not like he was leading his team like some of these guys did (iguodala this season, ray allen in years past, redd in years past) or like he was a major part of a very successful team (ray allen, rip hamilton in years past, josh howard in years past)

Gordon's never played with a superstar, so you can't say how he'd fair in a role as a #2.

No one on that list you named has done better than Gordon as a first option except Ray Allen about four years ago for one year in his career.

Stephen Jackson

Where has he ever led a team or even as a 2nd best guy on a team? Career numbers aren't near Gordon's nor is any year near Gordon's and he's older and likely to slow down.

Josh Howard (if you consider him a SG)

Never led a team anywhere either. Has probably been considered the Mavs 3rd best player in their better years.

Andre Iguodala (there's no maybe - he has more size, more athleticism, better D)

#1 guy on his team and has done quite a bit less with it than Gordon has done. He has more of the things you name but less scoring talent. I put him in the debatable category, he's right there, but by your criteria he hasn't done more than Gordon as a #1 guy.

Kevin Martin (yes, really better - gordon is just a scorer, and kevin martin is a better scorer)

A better scorer on a team that never wins more than 30 games.

Manu Ginobili (even if he's slowed down by injury, he can still shoot and he's a much better play maker)

Definitely better in the pat and when healthy, but at his age, I don't think I'd say he's better for the next 3 years.

Richard Hamilton (considering his defense, I'd say he's still better)

Has not been better for a long time, more of a 3rd option on his team for most of his career has also slowed down. Also older and not likely to be better in the next 3 years.

 

[Hendu0520]

Ok I think we are getting too into who is a sg or sf, that doesn't matter. If the guy "could" play SG then he should be considered.

Definately Better now and in future:
Wade, Kobe, Roy, Kevin Durant (he has played 2 guard it doesn't matter if he played sf)
Joe Johnson (I don't care about shooting % he is flat out better, not even close)
Michael Redd (He can come back from this injury)
Caron Butler (could be debatable, but Caron is 6'7" and Washington was a mess, he is really good.)
Danny Granger, played 2 when Dunleavy out, would trade in a second.

Better but have some off court issues:
Stephen Jackson, Josh Howard, Rashard Lewis (deosn't matter if they are 3's, they are better if they are 2's)

Better for 1 or 2 yrs only:
Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Vince Carter, Ron Artest, T-Mac if he steps on the floor he is still better, Manu Ginobili

Not yet better but I would trade for them because they will be:
Mayo, Eric Gordon, Rudy *** (if you added *** to this team I would put him at the 2 and Deng or Salmons at the 3 possibly Nick Young or Thadeus Young

Players that are his equals:
Hamilton (still plays good defense and can shoot, would hurt the Bulls because he is not a 3point shooter, would not want him though)
Iguodala: still wouldn't want him over Ben though.
Jamal Crawford (he's been on some messy teams, still has dropped 50 anytime, which I don't know if Ben has ever had a 50 spot, Crawford has a lot, still undersized so it would be a parallel move, and is just as much a black hole as Gordon)
Salmons: Brings a little less scoring and quickness but has great size and is still young.

Not as good:

Martin: he sucks that's all I have to say about him, I don't know how he does anything it is pathetic to watch
Barbosa, Bell, the rest

It doesn't matter if Jackson or Howard haven't been #1 options, they have great size and if you haven't seen Jackson play he is awesome, just has gotten a bad rap. Howard is a little iconsistent and can't score as well as Gordon but he is an all round machine and is a really good player, plus he's made the all star team a couple of times, he is just better.

 

[Hendu0520]

Oh and Godon would've been the Mavs third best player as well, when they were good.

 

[dougthonus]

Wade, Kobe, Roy, Kevin Durant (he has played 2 guard it doesn't matter if he played sf)
Joe Johnson (I don't care about shooting % he is flat out better, not even close)

Agree except that Kevin Durant is in no way shape or form a 2 guard, and he started playing a crapload better as soon as they stopped trying to make him a 2 guard which was a ridiculously stupid thing to do in the first place.

Michael Redd (He can come back from this injury)

What does Redd do better than Gordon except miss time with injuries and lead his team to worse records?

Caron Butler (could be debatable, but Caron is 6'7" and Washington was a mess, he is really good.)
Danny Granger, played 2 when Dunleavy out, would trade in a second.

No way either of these guys could play 2 guard in the NBA over a long period of time.

Better for 1 or 2 yrs only:
Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Vince Carter, Ron Artest, T-Mac if he steps on the floor he is still better, Manu Ginobili

Ron Artest isn't better. T-Mac isn't better, he will be lucky if he can ever even play in the NBA following microfracture surgery. Ginobili is better if healthy, and if he doesn't slow down, for as long as that is (how long who knows). Ray Allen doesn't do anything better than Ben Gordon. Pierce is a better player, but no way is he a 2 guard either.

Better but have some off court issues:
Stephen Jackson, Josh Howard, Rashard Lewis (deosn't matter if they are 3's, they are better if they are 2's)

Stephen JAckson is a fricken joke, he's not even close to as good as Gordon, Lewis sure as hell isn't a 2 guard. Josh Howard isn't really a 2 guard either, and he's a much less efficient scorer. He's a better defender, but I don't know that he's a better player.

Not yet better but I would trade for them because they will be:
Mayo, Eric Gordon, Rudy *** (if you added *** to this team I would put him at the 2 and Deng or Salmons at the 3 possibly Nick Young or Thadeus Young

Eric Gordon wasn't as good as Ben Gordon in college, he's not as good a shooter and has the same weaknesses without as good of strengths. Mayo may or may not be better. *** isn't a SG either. Nick Young has no hope of being better, he's not even close. Thadeus Young is really, really far away as well.

It doesn't matter if Jackson or Howard haven't been #1 options, they have great size and if you haven't seen Jackson play he is awesome, just has gotten a bad rap. Howard is a little iconsistent and can't score as well as Gordon but he is an all round machine and is a really good player, plus he's made the all star team a couple of times, he is just better.

Jackson is a straight up chucker. He shoots 41.8% for his career and 34.1% from the 3 point line. He's not even int he same universe as far as scoring efficiency and volume as Gordon. He's bigger. That's it, he's maybe the 6th best player if he's on the Bulls though.

I'd give you Howard as a maybe, in the same ball park, but Howard isn't a SG.

You might as well turn this into the "players who are better than Ben Gordon and aren't centers" list the way you're running it.

 

[OnePointSeven]

dougthonus wrote:

Kevin Martin (yes, really better - gordon is just a scorer, and kevin martin is a better scorer)

A better scorer on a team that never wins more than 30 games.

He's in the Western Conference. Big difference in conferences over the last 4 years. He's won 50, 44, 33, 38, 17 in all his years there (so yes, he's been over 30 wins). I realize his role has increased over the years while the wins have decreased, but again....its the Western Conference.

 

[dougthonus]

He's in the Western Conference. Big difference in conferences over the last 4 years. He's won 50, 44, 33, 38, 17 in all his years there (so yes, he's been over 30 wins). I realize his role has increased over the years while the wins have decreased, but again....its the Western Conference.

He barely played in his first season. 10 minutes a game and missed half the games. That was the 50 win season. He was the 7th man in the 44 win season.

When he became a primary player they won 33, 38, and 17. The 17 win season was the season he was the #1 option for his team.

 

[OnePointSeven]

dougthonus wrote:

He's in the Western Conference. Big difference in conferences over the last 4 years. He's won 50, 44, 33, 38, 17 in all his years there (so yes, he's been over 30 wins). I realize his role has increased over the years while the wins have decreased, but again....its the Western Conference.

He barely played in his first season. 10 minutes a game and missed half the games. That was the 50 win season. He was the 7th man in the 44 win season.

When he became a primary player they won 33, 38, and 17. The 17 win season was the season he was the #1 option for his team.

If you replace Ben Gordon and Kevin Martin this season, does BG carry Sacto to more wins?

 

[Hendu0520]

Ben is the best shooter out of probably everyone on this list. Doesn't make him better.

Redd has multiple game winners, taller, better defense, 50 point games. Yes he is injured but if healthy he is better. Ben shoots you out of a game, Redd knows hot to pass.

Yes maybe I am pulling some 3's down to 2 too much but the Bulls have a flexible lineup and could get away with switching guys in and out at 2 and 3 almost like 3 guards. I'll give you all of those but I think you are underestimating that size matters a lot.

To me Stephen Jackson is one of the most underrated players in the league. First of all he is one of the, the best defenders in the league. No one would have a good shooting % playing in Golden State. He can also play point to the 3 and sometimes the 4 much more versatile of a player, just like Josh Howard.

Yah young guys are all a long ways away and Eric Gordon is small too, but he only played 1 year of college and he didn't have a coach the 2nd half of the year. He showed great maturity and still led his team to the tournament or close anyways, good college year if you ask me.

and Ray Allen is better, c'mon better shooter, defender, passer, taller and isn't a black hole, I don't know how you can say he isnt', because BG scores more? Ray is on a team with Pierce and Rondo, and b4 that KG of course his scoring is down, he is flat out better.

 

[cool007]

dougthonus wrote:

Wade, Kobe, Roy, Kevin Durant (he has played 2 guard it doesn't matter if he played sf)
Joe Johnson (I don't care about shooting % he is flat out better, not even close)

Agree except that Kevin Durant is in no way shape or form a 2 guard, and he started playing a crapload better as soon as they stopped trying to make him a 2 guard which was a ridiculously stupid thing to do in the first place.

Michael Redd (He can come back from this injury)

What does Redd do better than Gordon except miss time with injuries and lead his team to worse records?

Caron Butler (could be debatable, but Caron is 6'7" and Washington was a mess, he is really good.)
Danny Granger, played 2 when Dunleavy out, would trade in a second.

No way either of these guys could play 2 guard in the NBA over a long period of time.

Better for 1 or 2 yrs only:
Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Vince Carter, Ron Artest, T-Mac if he steps on the floor he is still better, Manu Ginobili

Ron Artest isn't better. T-Mac isn't better, he will be lucky if he can ever even play in the NBA following microfracture surgery. Ginobili is better if healthy, and if he doesn't slow down, for as long as that is (how long who knows). Ray Allen doesn't do anything better than Ben Gordon. Pierce is a better player, but no way is he a 2 guard either.

Better but have some off court issues:
Stephen Jackson, Josh Howard, Rashard Lewis (deosn't matter if they are 3's, they are better if they are 2's)

Stephen JAckson is a fricken joke, he's not even close to as good as Gordon, Lewis sure as hell isn't a 2 guard. Josh Howard isn't really a 2 guard either, and he's a much less efficient scorer. He's a better defender, but I don't know that he's a better player.

Not yet better but I would trade for them because they will be:
Mayo, Eric Gordon, Rudy *** (if you added *** to this team I would put him at the 2 and Deng or Salmons at the 3 possibly Nick Young or Thadeus Young

Eric Gordon wasn't as good as Ben Gordon in college, he's not as good a shooter and has the same weaknesses without as good of strengths. Mayo may or may not be better. *** isn't a SG either. Nick Young has no hope of being better, he's not even close. Thadeus Young is really, really far away as well.

It doesn't matter if Jackson or Howard haven't been #1 options, they have great size and if you haven't seen Jackson play he is awesome, just has gotten a bad rap. Howard is a little iconsistent and can't score as well as Gordon but he is an all round machine and is a really good player, plus he's made the all star team a couple of times, he is just better.

Jackson is a straight up chucker. He shoots 41.8% for his career and 34.1% from the 3 point line. He's not even int he same universe as far as scoring efficiency and volume as Gordon. He's bigger. That's it, he's maybe the 6th best player if he's on the Bulls though.

I'd give you Howard as a maybe, in the same ball park, but Howard isn't a SG.

You might as well turn this into the "players who are better than Ben Gordon and aren't centers" list the way you're running it.

Thank you Doug. You saved me ton of time and energy saying the same.

Also, I have to thank you on Fred's behalf coz you saved him the time and energy for saying the same as well.

As I read these posts, it tells me that some are really underrating Gordon and his scoring ability as a 1st option on a team that was a 7th seed and was a big factor to make it a FUN - HISTORIC 7-game series.

It's like Grass is always greener on the other side, how can people bring up players like Barbosa, Jackson, etc - if they were on our team instead of Gordon, this board and all other boards would be going bezerk trying to burn them. They are NOT better than Gordon and never will be.

Also, I have a big laugh when people bring up Granger/Howard/Butler/Durant/Artest/Lewis etc as a SG option - I was like WHAT??? Just because either their coaches were stupid enough to play them at SG, don't mean that they are actually a SG. We can play Deng at SG as well but taht doesn't make him a TRUE SG either. I can understand Carter/T'Mac as SGs coz they are definitely more SG and has played a lot as SG - but they are really old/injury prone and flat out getting worse.

Again, Thank you Doug.

 

[Fred]

OnePointSeven wrote:

You're the GM of an expansion team and you have the choice of taking BG or Martin as you starting SG. Who do you take?

Since Kevin Martin's been the go-to guy in the last 3 years, they've won 33, 38, and 17 games. Have the guys around him been absolutely terrible in that time? This year, after the Salmons & Miller trade, the answer would be yes. Before that, I believe he had Artest for a few years. Is Deng a far superior player to Artest? Artest is much better defensively. Before the arrival of Rose, can you make the argument that Gordon was surrounded by vastly superior talent than Martin was? I'm not sure you can. BG's had one losing season since he's been in this league.

The thing that BG does better than most of these shooting guards is hit the 3. And I'm not talking "hitting the 3" Jason Kapono style, where you can allocate a poor defender to him with a hand up. You need to send a better defender to the 3-point line to guard him (creating quality space for Rose) and you need help in case he drives. This creates havoc, and unfortunately the Bulls didn't have enough to make the Celtics pay for the double teams. This series would have been a lot different if Chris Bosh was setting those high screens. A guy like him would make aggressive double teams pay.

The point is, if we can keep this backcourt intact, we can win a title with one more piece. Rose (Batman) + Gordon (Robin) + Bosh (Robin) = Title #7. I'm not sure that Rose (Batman) + Bosh (Robin) + Deng (Hospitalized Commisioner Gordon) + Salmons (Commissioner Gordon) does.

 

[Hendu0520]

I think the good thing about doing this is to show that there aren't a lot of players better than Gordon, the guys were are arguing about Jackson, Allen, etc.. we wouldn't ever trade for them because they are older, injured, or head cases.

Ben is a great guy and obviously plays hard. Unless we get one of those undebatable guys which won't happen because they are franchise guys we have to keep him.

My other point is this. We have to get another star at another positions. BG is good enough that we can't really replace him with anyone better. We have to look at the other positions to improve.

 

[Hendu0520]

Great point Fred we can win with Gordon if we get a Bosh, perfect, that would be a great team.

 

[JimmyBulls]

Let's get real here, Kevin Martin is better than Ben Gordon. It's kinda crackpot to state another opinion. Both guys are one tool players, and Martin is better at that one tool.

Bringing up the fact that the Kings sucks only shows you're trying very hard to make a favorable agrument for Gordon. If the Bulls was in the western conference, it's safe to say they would probably win just as much as the Kings. The Bulls won 35 games with Gordon last season, and 41 this season in a weak top heavy East.

 

[Hendu0520]

Huh? First of all the Bulls had a great record against the Western Conference, including killing the Kings. They would've probably missed the playoffs but the Bulls would be closer to Phoenix if they were in the west.

What does Martin do better than Gordon. He is just as short, not as good of a shooter, weaker, BG is very strong for a small guard which makes up for the height a bit. Martin's shot selection is not great either. I think Martin is a product of a system that has no one else. When Salmons was there he was a more important piece of their team and was better. Plus has Martin ever hit a game winner? Could Martin have had a duel with Allen like BG did, not in a million years.

 

[Hendu0520]

Not to mention that Martin is weak in the mind and is a cry baby, Ben is a business man. If Martin were on the Bulls he would eventually find himself right next to Tim Thomas, except he would complain about it.

 

[AirP]

Definately over Gordon... I'm only worried about the next 2-3 years, not long term.

Wade
Kobe
Roy
Ginobili
V.Carter
K.Martin
J.Johnson
J.Salmons
R.Hamilton
R.Allen
Iggy

Maybes...
Richardson
Redd
R.Bell
S.Jackson
Mayo

Then again, with Rose over at PG... maybe all you need is a good outside shooting SG who can play defense... you might not need a bigtime SG next to him, just someone who will score when he's open and play defense.

Hell no...
J.Crawford
McGrady - he's close to done
L.Hughes

I still think I'd utilize Gordon as a 6th man with his ability to get hot and score a bunch.... he'd be the top 6th man for close to a decade if he could handle not being a starter. He's a scorer who doesn't need an offense set for the most part, he can create space to get his great outside shot off... no need to utilize that with your best players on the court! Let him dominate the offense with your 2nd team, even if he does bad(which he does quite a lot throughout a game), it's not going to hurt you much.

 

[chi_hawks_23]

Hendu0520 wrote:

Not to mention that Martin is weak in the mind and is a cry baby, Ben is a business man. If Martin were on the Bulls he would eventually find himself right next to Tim Thomas, except he would complain about it.

Gordon > Martin IMHO

I can see where the debate is though...both great/streaky shooters, poor defense, can win you a game, but also lose take you out of one with poor shooting.

Id lean on Gordon only because I've seen him play every game of his career. Maybe if I watched more Sacramento games, Id lean on Martin.

 

[AirP]

JimmyBulls wrote:

Let's get real here, Kevin Martin is better than Ben Gordon. It's kinda crackpot to state another opinion. Both guys are one tool players, and Martin is better at that one tool.

Bringing up the fact that the Kings sucks only shows you're trying very hard to make a favorable agrument for Gordon. If the Bulls was in the western conference, it's safe to say they would probably win just as much as the Kings. The Bulls won 35 games with Gordon last season, and 41 this season in a weak top heavy East.

The difference on the offensive end... consistancy. When Gordon is off... he's off. When Martin is off he can draw fouls... at about a rate of 10 foul shots a game which allows him to score even with his shot off... not to mention put other teams in foul trouble... then when Chicago is in a drought, he's a player who can draw a foul to stop play and let everyone refocus and get back on track.

 

[dougthonus]

\
What does Martin do better than Gordon. He is just as short, not as good of a shooter, weaker, BG is very strong for a small guard which makes up for the height a bit. Martin's shot selection is not great either.

Are you thinking of Monta Ellis? Martin is like 6'7.