Navy Preparing Subs For First Femaie Officers

[CaveMan]

The integrated crew functions, barely.I do not like serving in integrated commands, at all. They are capable of doing the job yes, but having females on board has caused more NJP cases than in an all male command. There are far too many that take advantage of their sex to get favors or to get out of work. There are those that do their job, tho. In my experience too much drama is involved with them on board and that raises tension throughout the crew.

 

[BigPete]

Thanks for sharing. I couldn't imagine working under a female officer again, it always felt like they were out to prove something and took it to a level that was way above and beyond that of most officers trying to get 'the next star'. In other words, they would sell their crew to terrorists if they thought it would get them a leg up on the next review board.



I guess what you are mentioning though is unavoidable and comes down to individual commany climate. What is that group of leadership doing to avoid female service members from using their assets to take advantage of their fellow unit members ( <----rhetorical question).

 

[LordKOTL]

I can't speak from a level of knowledge of being *in* the service, but I think that the problems that come from any type of integration (like, say, racial integration, or the current gender ntegration), tend to work themselves out in a generation--or at least get to a point where it's tolerable.



The problem is, there will be a time in which the newly integrated person feels the need to bust everyones balls trying to prove that they belong and overdo it, and conversely the old guard who thinks the newly integrated people can't do it. But in order to achieve integration, that period *has* to be gone through. Since it will happen, might as well happen now just to get it out of the way.

 

[bubbleheadchief]

Thanks for sharing. I couldn't imagine working under a female officer again, it always felt like they were out to prove something and took it to a level that was way above and beyond that of most officers trying to get 'the next star'. In other words, they would sell their crew to terrorists if they thought it would get them a leg up on the next review board.



I guess what you are mentioning though is unavoidable and comes down to individual commany climate. What is that group of leadership doing to avoid female service members from using their assets to take advantage of their fellow unit members ( <----rhetorical question).

I'll answer you rhetorical question, because even with the pun there at the end it is a legitimate question. What does each command do to counter the obvious issues with integrated male/female crews? Training, training nad more training. Sexual harrasment, EEO, greivance procedures, fraternization.....the whole gambit for every possible scenario, and you know what...it still happens.

When I typed my earlier (tribute to HF50) reasons why I don tthink it will work, I didnt want to go down the other route that Strom did...isung her womanly wiles to get out of work/cake assignments. Here is another one to think about, this one happens more than you can imagine....you can usually figure out what your deployment schedul eis.....you would be absolutely amazed at the number of female crew that turn up pregnant just before deployment....when that happens, they do not go...too many possibilities of complications. You have to change them out....depending on her position/job you cnat simply grab someone and send them on a submarine. We really are specially trained and qualified.

Someone mentioned making females get the implanted birth control earlier, we dont have very many rights as military members, but you are going to force a female to get the implant to serve on a sub??? Somehow I see human rights groups having GIANT issues with that.

Pete it's not as simple as retrofitting a submarine for female crew. You have to completely reengineer several systems. The engineering that goes into making them as they are now, with every iota of free space dedicated to/for something already, you want them to go back and change it and make it work????

 

[bubbleheadchief]

I can't speak from a level of knowledge of being *in* the service, but I think that the problems that come from any type of integration (like, say, racial integration, or the current gender ntegration), tend to work themselves out in a generation--or at least get to a point where it's tolerable.



The problem is, there will be a time in which the newly integrated person feels the need to bust everyones balls trying to prove that they belong and overdo it, and conversely the old guard who thinks the newly integrated people can't do it. But in order to achieve integration, that period *has* to be gone through. Since it will happen, might as well happen now just to get it out of the way.

I have to disagree with you whole heartedly with you on this. We go through it every time a new crewperson (see, I can already be more pc for all of you) checks onboard. So "handling the new guy trying to prove himself" is nothing new.

 

[TSD]

Thanks for sharing. I couldn't imagine working under a female officer again, it always felt like they were out to prove something and took it to a level that was way above and beyond that of most officers trying to get 'the next star'. In other words, they would sell their crew to terrorists if they thought it would get them a leg up on the next review board.



I guess what you are mentioning though is unavoidable and comes down to individual commany climate. What is that group of leadership doing to avoid female service members from using their assets to take advantage of their fellow unit members ( <----rhetorical question).

My unit had a female 1LT XO, that was a fucking ice queen. it was a joyful occation for all when she left.

 

[BigPete]

I have heard you provide your last argument a few times now Chief. I am not claiming it is simple. But it is not impossible.



As to being a highly trained and qualified crew: I get that. But that doesn't mean that a female can't achieve that distinction just like the males have.



I really don't care one way or another but I have noticed or at least feel that most people who are opposed to this idea have personal and emotional (not logical) reasons for thinking it won't work and it shouldn't be done.



From a vulcan perspective: it can be done, let's do it.

From a romulan perspective: get the bitches off the boat.



(sorry if that humor is lost on some people - it really is meant to be funny)

 

[TSD]

I'll answer you rhetorical question, because even with the pun there at the end it is a legitimate question. What does each command do to counter the obvious issues with integrated male/female crews? Training, training nad more training. Sexual harrasment, EEO, greivance procedures, fraternization.....the whole gambit for every possible scenario, and you know what...it still happens.

When I typed my earlier (tribute to HF50) reasons why I don tthink it will work, I didnt want to go down the other route that Strom did...isung her womanly wiles to get out of work/cake assignments. Here is another one to think about, this one happens more than you can imagine....you can usually figure out what your deployment schedul eis.....you would be absolutely amazed at the number of female crew that turn up pregnant just before deployment....when that happens, they do not go...too many possibilities of complications. You have to change them out....depending on her position/job you cnat simply grab someone and send them on a submarine. We really are specially trained and qualified.

Someone mentioned making females get the implanted birth control earlier, we dont have very many rights as military members, but you are going to force a female to get the implant to serve on a sub??? Somehow I see human rights groups having GIANT issues with that.

Pete it's not as simple as retrofitting a submarine for female crew. You have to completely reengineer several systems. The engineering that goes into making them as they are now, with every iota of free space dedicated to/for something already, you want them to go back and change it and make it work????

That pregnancy thing I dont think is restricted to the Navy alone, ive heard alot of stories from Army buddies about female soldiers conveniently getting pregnant shortly before deployment to Iraq or Afghanistan.



Thats a whole other department, my views on women serving in combat. The mass hatred in the Army of Jessica Lynch kind of contributed to that. Not to say that men arent capable of totally emotionally breaking down in situations (Ive seen it myself, a few kids were reduced to tears by getting yelled at in basic). Women emotionally on a whole are just weaker than men in that regard. Jessica Lynch curled up into a ball in the floor of her truck crying and threw her rifle to the driver, and was subsequently hailed as a hero.

 

[BigPete]

I thought she was knocked out and had broken legs. Did you ever read her book? I haven't, but I also know that she was unwittingly dragged into a giant farce and she can't really be blamed for it.



On the topic of unable to deploy or ship out due to pregnancy: are there real numbers to show that trend? I can't find any. I heard about it happening when I was in too, but I am just wondering how much is rumor/urban legend and how much is reality.

 

[bubbleheadchief]

I have heard you provide your last argument a few times now Chief. I am not claiming it is simple. But it is not impossible.



As to being a highly trained and qualified crew: I get that. But that doesn't mean that a female can't achieve that distinction just like the males have.



I really don't care one way or another but I have noticed or at least feel that most people who are opposed to this idea have personal and emotional (not logical) reasons for thinking it won't work and it shouldn't be done.



From a vulcan perspective: it can be done, let's do it.

From a romulan perspective: get the bitches off the boat.



(sorry if that humor is lost on some people - it really is meant to be funny)

It's real easy having no experience with something to sit there and say "oh thats not impossible, they did it with this, they can do it with that".

Nowhere have I ever said that a woman can't be as good as or better than a man at their job.

An as a matter of fact there Mr Pete, I have only been looking at it from a logical perspective. I grew up in and around the Navy Pete. I spent my formative years following my Dad around during his 23 years in the Navy, and I just spent 20 years of my life serving my entire career onboard submarines, so I think I have a little knowledge with what is involved, emotionally, physically and logistically with a transition like this. This is not as easy as throwing up a tent, writing "Female Berthing" on the door, and going about your business, as so many around here assume. You are talking an area of about 500' long by 60' wide by 60' high with millions of dollars worth of missiles, ancillary equipment, a nuclear reactor, and oh yeah about 170 people crammed in there. Never said it was impossible, I think it will be easier to work it onboard boomers, just dont see how onboard a fast attack. So you know a fast attack is 360' by 30' by 30' with torpedos/tomahawks, ancillary equipment, a nuclear reactor and about 150 people.

So, to follow your humor, Picard(Obama) has already given the order "make it so #1" and Commander Riker(ADM Roughhead) has said "Aye, Aye, Cap'n" it is their job to figure this nightmare out, not mine. As Data, I have given my logical reasons as to why I think this will either take forever to work or will fail horribly.

This does not affect me at all Pete. I am out. Retired. Done my time, and wear my Dolphins with pride. If I was still in, and as a Damn good Chief, I would have folowed orders and I would have done my damndest to try and make it work. "Mine is not to wonder why, mine is to do or die" Because Pete, as a submariner, we are the best in the fleet, we're given shit to work with and turn it into gold.

 

[bubbleheadchief]

I thought she was knocked out and had broken legs. Did you ever read her book? I haven't, but I also know that she was unwittingly dragged into a giant farce and she can't really be blamed for it.



On the topic of unable to deploy or ship out due to pregnancy: are there real numbers to show that trend? I can't find any. I heard about it happening when I was in too, but I am just wondering how much is rumor/urban legend and how much is reality.

I dont know if the statistics are published for this or not, but it is not an urban legend.

 

[jakobeast]

It's long, hard, and full of seamen.



What could go wrong?

 

[CaveMan]

Thank you Chief for being much more eloquent than I.

 

[winos5]

To be clear I said suppress the menstrual cycle, not birth control implants. That can be done using pills which are admittedly contraceptives as well.



I'm not sure it would be necassarilly forced on them. More a medical requirement for the career field they chose. Lots of career fields have medical restrictions, that isn't anything new for the DOD.



Regardless, I've worked for numerous female NCOs and COs while active duty. Never had any real problems myself but I did see plenty of fraternization, gender discrimination, and sexual harrassment, but far less than see as a civilian in general.

 

[bubbleheadchief]

Thank you Chief for being much more eloquent than I.

Not a problem shippy. You know the only time you need to worry about a Chief is when he says "watch this shit" then you better run as fast as your fucking legs will carry you....LOL

 

[CaveMan]

Not a problem shippy. You know the only time you need to worry about a Chief is when he says "watch this shit" then you better run as fast as your fucking legs will carry you....LOL

I have seen that before lol

 

[MassHavoc]

Not a problem shippy. You know the only time you need to worry about a Chief is when he says "watch this shit" then you better run as fast as your fucking legs will carry you....LOL

Sorry for my ignorance here, but was Chief the highest rank you achieved? And if so what exactly does that mean? Did you have full command of a boat? Or is that more like XO? Is it an entirely different title for a specific job on the boat? I've very ignorant when it comes to ranks in the Navy and Army and pretty much all armed forces. Too lazy to look it up.

 

[CaveMan]

Chiefs are you senior enlisted men on the ship. The are a buffer between the Officers and enlisted crew.

 

[BigPete]

I tip my hat to you Chief...nothing follows. Out.

 

[IceHogsFan]

Guess which finger I'm holding up, Pete. Nobody forced you to answer it since it was such an inconvenience. I will never figure out why people are so intolerable of people who ask questions and are trying to learn things, especially someone like you who thinks he's an authority on everything. I am not ashamed to admit I don't know something. In fact in the big scheme of the world I probably know very little. I'm what you would consider a Britard.

Good for you Bri.



You would think others would notice how out of hand some posters are, specifically the one Bri is responding to, when the nicest person on this message board (Bri) is attacked for asking a question.



Some believe in tearing others down in order to build themselves up. Quite pathetic.