NBA trade deadline discussion

[Enasic]

Is Beverly > Caruso and Ayo tandem?

Then why not move Caruso at the deadline?
Then why do this after you didn't?

The redundancy and wasted depth on this team is as frustrating to me as anything.

We have two of everything but no 5 that can kill consistently together.

Is Beverly redundant? Yes. Not that it matters now, but he at least has some dog in him which this group sorely lacks. But you’re right, the roster construction and redundancy on this team is laughable.

They really need a true PG, a 3&D wing, and a consistent starting 4 that ideally could muster up more than 4 boards per game.

AKME appears to have thought that the key to a great team is accumulating the most tweener guards as possible. If only it were true, bulls would be unstoppable with Ayo, Caruso, Coby, Dragic, and Beverly.

 

[wonky73]

Patrick Beverley yeah the season is saved.. Finals here we come

 

[knoxville7]

Is Beverly redundant? Yes. Not that it matters now, but he at least has some dog in him which this group sorely lacks. But you’re right, the roster construction and redundancy on this team is laughable.

They really need a true PG, a 3&D wing, and a consistent starting 4 that ideally could muster up more than 4 boards per game.

AKME appears to have thought that the key to a great team is accumulating the most tweener guards as possible. If only it were true, bulls would be unstoppable with Ayo, Caruso, Coby, Dragic, and Beverly.

Well, their true PG is dead(lonzo), they have a 3 and D wing in PWill, and the consistent starting 4 is again missing lonzo.

the roster construction by AKME isn’t as terrible as most are making it out to be. I’d say derozan was a poor fit, but you were and still are high on him so I’ll deter myself from harping on it. Lonzo’s injury has exposed a lack of direction/floor general issue, but that would happen for most teams when they lose their main guy at that aspect

 

[Enasic]

Well, their true PG is dead(lonzo), they have a 3 and D wing in PWill, and the consistent starting 4 is again missing lonzo.

the roster construction by AKME isn’t as terrible as most are making it out to be. I’d say derozan was a poor fit, but you were and still are high on him so I’ll deter myself from harping on it. Lonzo’s injury has exposed a lack of direction/floor general issue, but that would happen for most teams when they lose their main guy at that aspect

Feel free to harp on it. I’d say Demar is the best player on the team, so if he’s a poor fit, not sure what that means in terms of BD and the roster overall. Having a glut of tweener guards probably doesn’t help anything.

Williams certainly falls short of the consistent starting PF and 3&D wing. He averages just above 1 made 3 pointer per game and while he’s a good defender, and an improving defender, he’s certainly not a lockdown type defender by any means. 4 boards from your starting PF is also underwhelming.

 

[knoxville7]

Feel free to harp on it. I’d say Demar is the best player on the team, so if he’s a poor fit, not sure what that means in terms of BD and the roster overall. Having a glut of tweener guards probably doesn’t help anything.

Williams certainly falls short of the consistent starting PF and 3&D wing. He averages just above 1 made 3 pointer per game and while he’s a good defender, and an improving defender, he’s certainly not a lockdown type defender by any means. 4 boards from your starting PF is also underwhelming.

Demar is a ball movement killer. It’s why he’s a bad fit for the roster.

Williams is the best 3 point shooter on the team this season at 40%. so yeah he fits the “3” part of 3 and D for sure

He’s hitting 1.4 of them a game also, but leave it to you to be disingenuous and say just 1 a game. As if a half a made per game doesn’t matter

Defensively, he’s one of the better on ball defenders we have on the wing. So, maybe the team is that terrible or maybe he’s a 3 and D guy in todays NBA, where defense is so secondary that it barely matters

And you say the 4 boards thing as if he’s actually a PF and not playing positionless basketball. Nor are you mentioning the fact he plays alongside one of the best rebounding centers in basketball in Vuc

 

[knoxville7]

Not sure how we are going about measuring a defensive players ability these days, and inevitably I’ll get the “hE dOeSnT pAsS mY eYe TeSt” response, but…

PWill has put up 2 defensive win shares to this point in the season, on pace for his best season in that stat

He’s getting a 2.5% block rate this season, for reference Rudy gobert(I think everyone would agree he’s a good defender) is at 3.8% this season

PWills defensive rating is 113, Goberts is 109

 

[Enasic]

Demar is a ball movement killer. It’s why he’s a bad fit for the roster.

Williams is the best 3 point shooter on the team this season at 40%. so yeah he fits the “3” part of 3 and D for sure

He’s hitting 1.4 of them a game also, but leave it to you to be disingenuous and say just 1 a game. As if a half a made per game doesn’t matter

Defensively, he’s one of the better on ball defenders we have on the wing. So, maybe the team is that terrible or maybe he’s a 3 and D guy in todays NBA, where defense is so secondary that it barely matters

And you say the 4 boards thing as if he’s actually a PF and not playing positionless basketball. Nor are you mentioning the fact he plays alongside one of the best rebounding centers in basketball in Vuc

Lol how am I being disingenuous exactly? I said “He averages just above 1 made 3 pointer per game.”

1.4 is just above 1 isn’t it?

Vuc is a great rebounder for sure, but yeah…4 boards is underwhelming as a starting PF. Luol Deng played with Boozer and Noah and still managed 5-7 RPG as a SF. I get it, you’re high on P.Will but the Bulls could use a lot more from that starting 4 spot

 

[knoxville7]

Lol how am I being disingenuous exactly? I said “He averages just above 1 made 3 pointer per game.”

1.4 is just above 1 isn’t it?

Vuc is a great rebounder for sure, but yeah…4 boards is underwhelming as a starting PF. Luol Deng played with Boozer and Noah and still managed 5-7 RPG as a SF. I get it, you’re high on P.Will but the Bulls could use a lot more from that starting 4 spot

Why not say he’s avg 1.5 a game if you’re rounding? That’s why it was disingenuous on your part. Fact is he’s making 40% on 3.5 attempts per game. Yet, somehow that’s not a 3 point shooter for your team?? I guess he has to take 7 a game before he qualifies in your mind??

And yes, the bulls could use more from the starting 4 spot. But that’s not what we were discussing Mr. goalpost mover. We were discussing if he is a “3 and D” player, which he clearly is

 

[clonetrooper264]

I would actually love for PWill to shoot 7 3s per game at 40% clip. That would do wonders for this team. Heck, let's get him 10 attempts on the regular.

 

[knoxville7]

I would actually love for PWill to shoot 7 3s per game at 40% clip. That would do wonders for this team. Heck, let's get him 10 attempts on the regular.

Right, just like if every shot was a PWill 3 at 40% there would be no need for anyone else to ever shoot. That’s not the point, though

 

[Enasic]

Why not say he’s avg 1.5 a game if you’re rounding? That’s why it was disingenuous on your part. Fact is he’s making 40% on 3.5 attempts per game. Yet, somehow that’s not a 3 point shooter for your team?? I guess he has to take 7 a game before he qualifies in your mind??

And yes, the bulls could use more from the starting 4 spot. But that’s not what we were discussing Mr. goalpost mover. We were discussing if he is a “3 and D” player, which he clearly is

Breathe dude. Williams shoots at a nice clip…but he’s a pretty low volume shooter. It would be great if he took more 3 pt attempts and maintained that percentage. I’m not sure I’ve ever heard of anyone go to bat for Williams as a 3&D player. Mainly, because he’s an average/slightly above average defender and doesn’t take/make a lot of 3s.

I will say the potential is there, but I would not categorize him as that currently.

 

[Raskolnikov]

Is Beverly redundant? Yes. Not that it matters now, but he at least has some dog in him which this group sorely lacks. But you’re right, the roster construction and redundancy on this team is laughable.

They really need a true PG, a 3&D wing, and a consistent starting 4 that ideally could muster up more than 4 boards per game.

AKME appears to have thought that the key to a great team is accumulating the most tweener guards as possible. If only it were true, bulls would be unstoppable with Ayo, Caruso, Coby, Dragic, and Beverly.

That was great. Lol.

But yeah who does Beverly take playing time from and how does that make us better short term or long term?

Ayo > Bev
Dragic + Beverly is nice combo.
Caruso > Bev

Why not trade Caruso?

 

[knoxville7]

Breathe dude. Williams shoots at a nice clip…but he’s a pretty low volume shooter. It would be great if he took more 3 pt attempts and maintained that percentage. I’m not sure I’ve ever heard of anyone go to bat for Williams as a 3&D player. Mainly, because he’s an average/slightly above average defender and doesn’t take/make a lot of 3s.

I will say the potential is there, but I would not categorize him as that currently.

PWill has attempted 206 threes this season. The nba leader in 3% this season Malcolm brogdon has attempted 222 of them. I guess he’s a low volume 3 point shooter too?

you’re just wrong, it’s okay ?

 

[Enasic]

PWill has attempted 206 threes this season. The nba leader in 3% this season Malcolm brogdon has attempted 222 of them. I guess he’s a low volume 3 point shooter too?

you’re just wrong, it’s okay ?

I’m glad you feel that way. There are two parts of the equation when it comes to 3&D players - 3 pt shooting and defense. P will is an average defender at this point in his career. I would not categorize him as 3&D at this juncture for the reasons I mentioned. You’re free to disagree. There’s really no objective metric to look at to quantify 3&D. I would wager however that most basketball people would not categorize him as such either. If so, I certainly have not seen or heard that label attached to him.

Glad you’re certain on this though ?

 

[knoxville7]

I’m glad you feel that way. There are two parts of the equation when it comes to 3&D players - 3 pt shooting and defense. P will is an average defender at this point in his career. I would not categorize him as 3&D at this juncture for the reasons I mentioned. You’re free to disagree. There’s really no objective metric to look at to quantify 3&D. I would wager however that most basketball people would not categorize him as such either. If so, I certainly have not seen or heard that label attached to him.

Glad you’re certain on this though ?

Well, you don’t watch the bulls much anymore by your own admission, so of course you haven’t heard announcers say it. They have, though.

and the defense being difficult to quantify is why I focused on rekking you in the 3 point shooter debate about him. He clearly qualifies as a significantly above average 3 point shooter, hence the “3” part of 3 & D. Don’t see how you could argue that portion of it, yet here we are. At least you gave up on that it seems based on this response from you

defensively, I mentioned defensive win shares, block rate, etc…but they will all be ignored by you and called bad metrics, no doubt!

 

[Enasic]

Well, you don’t watch the bulls much anymore by your own admission, so of course you haven’t heard announcers say it. They have, though.

and the defense being difficult to quantify is why I focused on rekking you in the 3 point shooter debate about him. He clearly qualifies as a significantly above average 3 point shooter, hence the “3” part of 3 & D. Don’t see how you could argue that portion of it, yet here we are. At least you gave up on that it seems based on this response from you

defensively, I mentioned defensive win shares, block rate, etc…but they will all be ignored by you and called bad metrics, no doubt!

Who called Williams 3&D? Stacey?

He is an above average 3 PT shooter percentage wise, never said otherwise. Granted, wide open spot ups, but yeah. You did mention Brogdon though who played 9 less games than Williams, averages 1 more attempt per game and shoots it at 44%. Just FYI

As far as defense goes, yeah…defensive metrics suck. That is true.

 

[knoxville7]

Who called Williams 3&D? Stacey?

He is an above average 3 PT shooter percentage wise, never said otherwise. Granted, wide open spot ups, but yeah. You did mention Brogdon though who played 9 less games than Williams, averages 1 more attempt per game and shoots it at 44%. Just FYI

As far as defense goes, yeah…defensive metrics suck. That is true.

I’ve heard it from local and National announcers.

and all I said was brogdon leads the league in qualified 3 point shooters and has only attempted 16 more 3 pointers this season. Take that for what you will. I could point to other guys who have played every game, but didn’t think in todays nba it would help much to point to that since 95% of guys miss games every year

point of listing all of the defensive metrics that I did is that typically if you have solid metrics in most or all of them, it tends to mean you’re at least a solid defender compared to your peers. Do you disagree?

 

[Diehardfan]

Doubtful at this point it would make much of a difference had he returned but I just saw this.....He gone

 

[clonetrooper264]

Doubtful at this point it would make much of a difference had he returned but I just saw this.....He gone

Basically we knew this 4-5 months ago

 

[Enasic]

I’ve heard it from local and National announcers.

and all I said was brogdon leads the league in qualified 3 point shooters and has only attempted 16 more 3 pointers this season. Take that for what you will. I could point to other guys who have played every game, but didn’t think in todays nba it would help much to point to that since 95% of guys miss games every year

point of listing all of the defensive metrics that I did is that typically if you have solid metrics in most or all of them, it tends to mean you’re at least a solid defender compared to your peers. Do you disagree?

My overall stance on defensive metrics is that they’re useless. I never reference them for any player or when assessing someone’s defensive prowess.

I think Williams is an ok/average defender. He’s shown flashes to be more than that, but overall, he’s just ok/respectable. I have some concerns about his foot speed and he doesn’t play with a lot of energy and intensity which IMO are both pre requisites for any defender who wants to be very good. I think he can get there someday, but currently, he’s comfortably in the decent defensive category for me