NBA trade deadline discussion

[knoxville7]

My overall stance on defensive metrics is that they’re useless. I never reference them for any player or when assessing someone’s defensive prowess.

I think Williams is an ok/average defender. He’s shown flashes to be more than that, but overall, he’s just ok/respectable. I have some concerns about his foot speed and he doesn’t play with a lot of energy and intensity which IMO are both pre requisites for any defender who wants to be very good. I think he can get there someday, but currently, he’s comfortably in the decent defensive category for me

#CalledIt

And because he doesn’t jump up and down and scream doesn’t mean he doesn’t play with intensity. Take that sort of meatballism to the bearz board where there are some that buy into it

 

[knoxville7]

Good to know someone doesn’t think you can measure defense, but you can measure whether or not a guy plays with passion!!!!

 

[Enasic]

#CalledIt

And because he doesn’t jump up and down and scream doesn’t mean he doesn’t play with intensity. Take that sort of meatballism to the bearz board where there are some that buy into it

I’ll never figure out why you get so dramatic when someone has a different opinion than you. It’s really not that serious

If you think Williams plays with energy and intensity more power to you but norm van lier is rolling over in his grave lol

I’m not the only one on here who thinks advanced defensive metrics are garbage either.

 

[Enasic]

Good to know someone doesn’t think you can measure defense, but you can measure whether or not a guy plays with passion!!!!

Can you show me where I said anything about passion? Some might say you’re being disingenuous ?

 

[knoxville7]

Can you show me where I said anything about passion?

My bad, intensity is the word used. Heaven forbid any synonym type words get used

I’ll never figure out why you get so dramatic when someone has a different opinion than you. It’s really not that serious

If you think Williams plays with energy and intensity more power to you but norm van lier is rolling over in his grave lol

I’m not the only one on here who thinks advanced defensive metrics are garbage either.

I acknowledged defensive metrics are poor. What I stated is you can draw some minor conclusions from seeing certain players consistently showing up in different ones

Like, the top defensive players typically show up at or near the top in most defensive metrics. So while flawed, they aren’t totally 100% trash as you make them out to be.

 

[Enasic]

My bad, intensity is the word used. Heaven forbid any synonym type words get used


I acknowledged defensive metrics are poor. What I stated is you can draw some minor conclusions from seeing certain players consistently showing up in different ones

Like, the top defensive players typically show up at or near the top in most defensive metrics. So while flawed, they aren’t totally 100% trash as you make them out to be.

So you acknowledge they’re poor but not 100% trash. Fair enough…80% trash? Seems like you’re splitting hairs here

 

[knoxville7]

So you acknowledge they’re poor but not 100% trash. Fair enough…80% trash? Seems like you’re splitting hairs here

It 100% doesn’t surprise me you don’t comprehend that conclusions can be drawn from them still

 

[Enasic]

It 100% doesn’t surprise me you don’t comprehend that conclusions can be drawn from them still

If you like to reference them and draw conclusions from what you deem as poor stats, fair enough. What are the conclusions you draw from them regarding Williams defense?

 

[Scoot26]

All advanced defensive metrics are imperfect and rather flawed. Defense is best measured by watching film (or the games), having an understanding of a teams defensive scheme, who the other defenders are on the floor, opposing offensive players, in-game context, and numerous other things that can't really be measured on a stat sheet. Also no one number really is going to tell a story here. In the shortest, simplest term, this is the "eye test".

For those unable to do the work above, you pretty much rely on experts on this case who do. In the NBA, that's pretty much the media, which as we all know can also be imperfect.

Advanced defensive metrics in general favor bigs. If we were to take Defensive Win Shares (DWS) serious, is anyone going to agree on this forum that Vuc is the 6th best defensive player in the NBA? No, I don't think so.

Are there good defensive players in the top 10 of DWS? Yes. Now if I have some knowledge of who are good defenders in the league prior to reviewing these stats could I draw some conclusions from it? Yeah probably, but I can also point out to you the flaws.

If you look at the All-NBA Defensive Teams from last year, those players ranked 3rd, 5th, 8th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 41st, 57th, and 70th in DWS. Jrue Holiday is that 70th player, and also a guard, which these stats mostly punish. (Please note that numerous players are tied in DWS, so these ranks can change suddenly with a refresh on basketball-reference).

Though oddly Luka Doncic, a point guard and a player not exactly known for defense, ranked 6th in DWS last year. His teammate, Dorian Finney-Smith, who got some votes for the All-NBA Defensive Team, ranked 22nd.

When looking at the Bulls this year at DWS, Vuc, as I previously stated is ranked 6th (well, tied for 5th actually with Brook Lopez at 3.8). DeMar, Zach, and PWill all are at a 2.0 DWS and tied with several other NBA players at what I guess would be 34th in the NBA. Does anyone really think DeMar and Zach are great defenders?

Caruso, largely considered the Bulls best defender, is at a 1.9 DWS.

I think I saw block % mentioned as a defensive metric, but that stat doesn't do anything but measure blocks. Ability to block is a part of playing good defensive, but just being good at blocks doesn't make you a good defender.

 

[knoxville7]

It’s laughable at how predictable this forum is

 

[knoxville7]

Same people yelling “eye test” are the same ones that only occasionally watch bulls games, yet they manage to have very strong opinions regarding things they claim require the “eye test”

???

 

[Enasic]

Same people yelling “eye test” are the same ones that only occasionally watch bulls games, yet they manage to have very strong opinions regarding things they claim require the “eye test”

???

I estimate I’ve watched about 70-80% of the games this year. If your stance is you need to watch every second of every game to have an informed opinion on someone’s defense, I disagree.

Not even sure what you’re arguing either. My stance is Williams is an average defender and doesn’t play with a high level of intensity or energy. It’s not like he has poor effort, but doesn’t play with the same motor as someone like Noah or Caruso. Do you disagree?

 

[knoxville7]

I estimate I’ve watched about 70-80% of the games this year. If your stance is you need to watch every second of every game to have an informed opinion on someone’s defense, I disagree.

Not even sure what you’re arguing either. My stance is Williams is an average defender and doesn’t play with a high level of intensity or energy. It’s not like he has poor effort, but doesn’t play with the same motor as someone like Noah or Caruso. Do you disagree?

Your stances on how much you watch bulls basketball doesn’t matter to me. You’ve said how you don’t watch them anymore or hardly so now it’s 70-80%, whatever

again, you don’t have to scream and pound your chest to play with a high motor. That’s meatball talk nonsense

 

[Enasic]

Your stances on how much you watch bulls basketball doesn’t matter to me. You’ve said how you don’t watch them anymore or hardly so now it’s 70-80%, whatever

again, you don’t have to scream and pound your chest to play with a high motor. That’s meatball talk nonsense

You like to assume a lot of things. I never said anything about screaming or pounding your chest lol….if you want to die on the P.Will is a high intensity and energy player hill, knock yourself out. That’s a lonely hill

 

[knoxville7]

You like to assume a lot of things. I never said anything about screaming or pounding your chest lol….if you want to die on the P.Will is a high intensity and energy player hill, knock yourself out. That’s a lonely hill

Now who is assuming things?? I don’t think you can find anything to quote of me saying that

 

[Enasic]

Now who is assuming things?? I don’t think you can find anything to quote of me saying that

Then what are you arguing exactly? Lol

 

[knoxville7]

Then what are you arguing exactly? Lol

The debate was never is he a high intensity guy or not. It’s is he a 3 and D guy or not. Try and keep up