Non-violent Actions for Social Change

[bubbleheadchief]

It's not like I'm on a life long mission to achieve any of what I'm saying. But that's not going to stop me from discussing what would need to happen if we truly did want to change things. And that's what this thread is for, ideas for what it would take to do that. Maybe the discussion just isn't up your alley, I don't know. I don't mean any offense, you can do what you want, but if this is all pointless to you, and everything is "the way it is" and we have no say in it, maybe just don't participate in the discussion then.







I always liked this quote from George Gallup (inventor of the Gallup Poll):



”At every point in history, man has assumed that civilization has reached it's zenith. He has smugly refused to place himself on the scale of time that reaches thousands and millions of years into the future as well as into the past. Looked at from the vantage point of 8,000 years hence - approximately the period of recorded history - man’s progress up to the present time may appear far less impressive than it does today."



What we think is unfathomable right now, can be commonplace a couple generations later or even as much as a thousand years from now, both a mere drop in the endless ocean of time. Just keep that in mind.



What do I mean by "evolve"? What do I mean by allowing technology to achieve it's highest possible potential? I mean re-designing our entire culture to the point where the modern day blights of war, poverty, endless debt, starvation, and overall unnecessary human suffering don't just become something we tolerate and attribute as to "Well that's just the way things are, it's unavoidable" but rather as completely unacceptable. If our feelings deviate from that, then we haven't really changed.



Technology's main purpose is to free us from labor. The highest possible potential of technology would mean the outright elimination of the majority of jobs, close to all of them. If we ever get to that point, that means that resources have gotten to a degree of such high abundance, quality and efficiency that there would be no need to sell them. It would be like trying to sell the air you breath every second of the day. Pointless.



The current system does the exact opposite. It is built on factors like planned obsolescence and multiplicity, where the massive, massive wasting of resources to build materials that don't last should be seen as horrifying. And that's where you have to start, you have to survey our resources, what we have, what we need most and what are possible alternates to those, not with the mindset of making a profit, but of optimization. The majority of the products produced today would not even exist if industry focused on what would best serve the needs of society and not what would make them more cost effective.



Because there's going to come a point where technology is going to continue to replace humans in the work force to where the lack of consumer purchasing power will destroy the monetary based economy, for it won’t matter how cost effective the production companies become, people will simply not have the kind of money needed to buy the items with, thus ending the mechanism of "cyclical consumption". And when that happens, that's where I believe there is a small chance of getting a start on the re-design of our culture and of our values because, like everything else, they become outdated.

Please take your nose out of the science fiction novels you read and come live in reality for a while.

 

[TSD]

Please take your nose out of the science fiction novels you read and come live in reality for a while.

Agreed this is borderlining on science fiction. People just arent built to do what he is proposing.



1st of all it would require a minority government, that believed in this to have total control over the majority, and NOT democratically, that sort of control would simply not fly, it would have to force people to do everything required.



Hes basically describing a communist utopia. It sounds great until you get down to the nuts and bolts and realize why it cant work. When you have a medical doctor being provided with the same standard of living as a janitor, the system will break down. People wont want to do the tough jobs, because there is no personal benefit. If I can get the same standard of living I can get doing something easy as hard, i am going to do the easy thing.

 

[BigPete]

I was enjoying the utopian talk but if we have to go back to more immediate concepts for bringing social change then I would definitely have to bring up our twisted version of democracy as a starting point. We have a representative democracy. I don't personally get to vote on every new piece of legislation. I also don't get a real one for one return on my vote for president. That bothers me. I want a system where the house and senate come up with new bills and I get to vote on them.

 

[bubbleheadchief]

I was enjoying the utopian talk but if we have to go back to more immediate concepts for bringing social change then I would definitely have to bring up our twisted version of democracy as a starting point. We have a representative democracy. I don't personally get to vote on every new piece of legislation. I also don't get a real one for one return on my vote for president. That bothers me. I want a system where the house and senate come up with new bills and I get to vote on them.

This i agree on, 75% of the time our 'representation" does not listen to us. that needs to change.

 

[jaxhawksfan]

This i agree on, 75% of the time our 'representation" does not listen to us. that needs to change.

This was the reason for my question in the beginning. We can take part in the voting process (and more people should), but when we elect someone and they defy our wishes........then what?

 

[BigPete]

This was the reason for my question in the beginning. We can take part in the voting process (and more people should), but when we elect someone and they defy our wishes........then what?

Recall by petition and vote? There has to be some provision for what happens when...(other than they commit a crime)...



You would think so anyways.

 

[BiscuitintheBasket]

Recall by petition and vote? There has to be some provision for what happens when...(other than they commit a crime)...



You would think so anyways.

Completely agree. It is far too hard to "fire" elected officials are that are not doing what they are supposed to be doing. If out of anything the voting district for reps should be able to vote annually as to if the rep should still hold the position....reps are supposed the be the ones that vote the way of the people, not the party.

 

[TSD]

This was the reason for my question in the beginning. We can take part in the voting process (and more people should), but when we elect someone and they defy our wishes........then what?

I agree with you there. The government plays more of a parental role than a representative role. The fact of the matter is most politicians are no more qualified to hold political office than any other person with some sort of post secondary education, yet every day they do things because they think they know better, or do it for the advancement of their own political career. The government continues getting us into debt with wasteful spending. The government bails out banks and corporations with our money, only to have those same organizations raise prices or add fees to banking services to essentially pay the government back the money they took from us more of our own money. The government continues proving it will manipulate and mismanage repeatedly, and sell us on a bill of goods they can fix it and we continue to buy it.



This isnt directed at any political party. In the past 11 years BOTH parties are responsible for reckless spending and both hold responsibility for Iraq, a war we should never have gone into. Intelligence smelligence, IT WAS ONE FUCKING GUY, I dont care who he was, you dont invade a country based on what one guy says. And no **** Iraqi or afghani freedom, If they want it they can get it themselves, sure some media outlets find a couple guys or the Kurds who thank us, how about they put on a fucking uniform and do some fighting so we dont have to do it for them, **** them.







Whats my solution? I don't have one. Senators and house representatives will never vote themselves out of a job with term limits and nothing stops them from disobeying the american people all they want, no amount of voting or complaining as long as they can exploit your fears come election time and blame someone else when they dont represent you properly. Liberals and Conservatives that can't think outside the veil of their political fervor are what continue to make this establishment stand as it is. I am by no means arguing some sort of conspiracy theory of global proportions, I highly doubt that. You bet your ass I am arguing an American political good ol boy system does exist.



The only thing that will cause a real political shift that reshapes the political office as we know it, would be mass rioting on epic proportions and a Military unwilling to turn its weapons on its own countrymen.



The American public on a whole doesn't have the balls for that, so don't expect change in your lifetime.

 

[jaxhawksfan]

Donald Trump is probably going to run for POTUS (if I hear him correctly). I don't know if I would/wouldn't vote for him at all but he did have some good financial ideas such as billing other countries for our military bailing them out. He says he would run the country more like a business. He has made major money in business, and has lost major money as well. Any thoughts?

 

[TSD]

Donald Trump is probably going to run for POTUS (if I hear him correctly). I don't know if I would/wouldn't vote for him at all but he did have some good financial ideas such as billing other countries for our military bailing them out. He says he would run the country more like a business. He has made major money in business, and has lost major money as well. Any thoughts?

I don't know. On the same token, can he really do any worse than anyone else? Afterall as I mentioned before politicians are not superman with mental capacities beyond our understanding, they are no better qualified for what they do than most any other adult, they just like to pretend they are.

 

[bubbleheadchief]

didnt trump do time? some kind of felony???

 

[MassHavoc]

One large problem is that as the world and technology has advanced, the political system and makeup hasn't. We could do everything by popular vote now if we wanted. The reason there were so many reps in the past is because they went by population and wanted coverage for everyone to have a voice. I think with the internet, the entire process could be more streamlined and transparent. You cut down on 50% of the reps, and the reps vote how their district tells them. You log in every week or so to see what's up for voting, place your vote, the most votes get the thumbs up or down from your Rep/Senator. How hard is that? Takes out the swapping votes for power as well. Removes a lot of the lobbying.... Gives the power back to the people. Isn't that what it was supposed to be about anyway? Our officials taking what we want to the vote.

 

[Tater]

One large problem is that as the world and technology has advanced, the political system and makeup hasn't. We could do everything by popular vote now if we wanted. The reason there were so many reps in the past is because they went by population and wanted coverage for everyone to have a voice. I think with the internet, the entire process could be more streamlined and transparent. You cut down on 50% of the reps, and the reps vote how their district tells them. You log in every week or so to see what's up for voting, place your vote, the most votes get the thumbs up or down from your Rep/Senator. How hard is that? Takes out the swapping votes for power as well. Removes a lot of the lobbying.... Gives the power back to the people. Isn't that what it was supposed to be about anyway? Our officials taking what we want to the vote.

This.



And people could log in to vote using a Social Security number so only legal residents could vote.

 

[MassHavoc]

This.



And people could log in to vote using a Social Security number so only legal residents could vote.

Exactly. And I get that not everyone has access. Well you know what, it's cheaper to give them access through liabrary' and such, than to pay the government officials for the rest of their life... I wonder what the population of people without the internet is vs those who vote.

 

[supraman]

Now I've been kicking around the idea of a true democracy for awhile now. The problem with internet voting is tampering with it. How are you going to make it foolproof? How are you going to make it absolutely unhackable?

 

[winos5]

Knowing the current administration they would make it an 888 number and charge $1 per minute to help the deficit. Of course if your on welfare you'd get $200 voucher fopr every time you vote.

 

[MassHavoc]

Now I've been kicking around the idea of a true democracy for awhile now. The problem with internet voting is tampering with it. How are you going to make it foolproof? How are you going to make it absolutely unhackable?

Plenty of ways, DOL, DOE, ect. all have secure systems as it and any money you need to make a full proof system you could have from officials, It's got to be much simpler than you are making it. I mean how many people in the US get 2 tax returns? And the ones that somehow do, it's probably a small percentage and I can deal with that. Constant auditing and spot checks. And if there is any doubt on a vote... guess what, everyone can just log on again and vote with it under more scrutiny.

 

[Variable]

Agreed this is borderlining on science fiction. People just arent built to do what he is proposing.



1st of all it would require a minority government, that believed in this to have total control over the majority, and NOT democratically, that sort of control would simply not fly, it would have to force people to do everything required.



Hes basically describing a communist utopia. It sounds great until you get down to the nuts and bolts and realize why it cant work. When you have a medical doctor being provided with the same standard of living as a janitor, the system will break down. People wont want to do the tough jobs, because there is no personal benefit. If I can get the same standard of living I can get doing something easy as hard, i am going to do the easy thing.

Of course that's what it sounds, I agree. You would hear the same thing if you tried explaining a device like the cell phone to people 600 years ago. I've said, over and over, this is NOT possible today. This is only a possible alternative in the future. How and when it would get started, the nuts and bolts of every single little detail, are impossible to tell. But as it stands today, we have pretty much hit the ceiling of the social structure we live in.



You can't have democracy because your representatives don't get voted into office to radically change things by the will of the "common people". That goes against what makes this system work. You will always get the same kind of results. No matter how secure you want to make elections, whatever you want to change: different format, use the popular vote, getting rid of X amount of reps, changing the ways people vote, it will not matter because it's all still under the constraints of the monetary system. Everything always comes back to the root of it all, it will always lead back to that. We've never had a democracy. It is not possible, it would destroy us in this system.