Official Training Camp News & Scheisse [Football Talk Only]

Discus fish salesman · Aug 11, 2022

remydat said:
No @Chicagosports89 asked if it is fair to question if he is top 5 and I responded to that by saying yes and to produce the ames and data on the guys you think are better.

Otherwise just claiming their are 5 guys better with no evidence is shitting on Quan in my opinion. I have clearly articulated the data for why I think Quan is top 5. It's put up or shut up time for those claiming he isnt.

The guys I think are debatable are Fred Warner, demario Davis, lavonte David, Devin white, Leonard, and Bobby Wagner (although he's probably past his prime and not quite that level anymore), and Micah parsons. I don't have time to look up stats right now. Roquan is elite in coverage, but his run stopping will be put to the test with mediocre DTs in front of him this year. Also his inability to cause fumbles with his immense tackle numbers is pretty shocking

BaBaBlacksheep · Aug 11, 2022

remydat said:
I already said Leonard is better. He doesn't have to be top 1 to get more than Leonard though. Don't think there is any position in the NFL where the actual best player at that position is also the highest paid.

I’ve said I could live with him being #1. My guess is the offer would do that. My other guess though is Quan doesn’t just want to be #1 he wants to be #1 by a lot. Like he wants to set the mother fucking bar type of deal. (Just my opinion)

UK_STALEY · Aug 11, 2022

remydat said:
I already said Leonard is better. He doesn't have to be top 1 to get more than Leonard though. Don't think there is any position in the NFL where the actual best player at that position is also the highest paid.

Is Leonard a reasonable comparison? They’ve played different positions to this point.
There’s a bit too much talk about Smith not having proved it in this defense to compare them too closely imo

bamainatlanta · Aug 11, 2022

remydat said:
It is fair to question anything but there is a difference between questioning if someone is top 5 with zero evidence or argument and actually having evidence. Who are you claiming are the top 5 and let's compare the stats.

Again Quan led the NFL in stops and has given up 0 TDs last 3 years. The only guy I can clearly put above him is Leonard because Leonard's TO numbers dwarfs Quan's but Quan still has more run stops and Leonard has given up 7 TDs in coverage compared to 0 for Quan last 3 years.

Now name me the other 4 because Quan's numbers outside of TOs largely dwarf everyone else's and no one else has a big enough gap in TOs to overcome that IMO but happy to actually have that debate.

By contrast if you are going to question if he is top 5 but can't actually produce any real data or stats to back it up then

Chicagosports89 said:
The guys I think are debatable are Fred Warner, demario Davis, lavonte David, Devin white, Leonard, and Bobby Wagner (although he's probably past his prime and not quite that level anymore), and Micah parsons. I don't have time to look up stats right now. Roquan is elite in coverage, but his run stopping will be put to the test with mediocre DTs in front of him this year. Also his inability to cause fumbles with his immense tackle numbers is pretty shocking

Outside of Tillman, forcing fumbles is an entirely random statistic

UK_STALEY · Aug 11, 2022

remydat said:
No. There is a separate category for Fumble Recoveries but those 2 are not necessarily related. So some proportion of FF by Leonard were recovered by the offense.

In which case FFs shouldn’t be trotted out as turnovers without clarification

Discus fish salesman · Aug 11, 2022

UK_STALEY said:
In which case FFs shouldn’t be trotted out as turnovers without clarification

Not trying to argue, but I don't think I've seen anyone call them a turnover. FF increase the chances of turnovers obviously though

remydat · Aug 11, 2022

Chicagosports89 said:
The guys I think are debatable are Fred Warner, demario Davis, lavonte David, Devin white, Leonard, and Bobby Wagner (although he's probably past his prime and not quite that level anymore), and Micah parsons. I don't have time to look up stats right now. Roquan is elite in coverage, but his run stopping will be put to the test with mediocre DTs in front of him this year. Also his inability to cause fumbles with his immense tackle numbers is pretty shocking

Quan led the NFL in run stops per PFF with 67. Warner and Campbell had 53, Wagner 51, Warner 48, White 46, Davis 39 and Leonard 37. So Smith had 14 more than the next closest guy. Quan was 2nd last year with 66 with David being the next best at 57. So Quan has made more plays in the run ge than anyone else over the last 2 years.

As for coverage he was 2nd in passer rating in 2020 ahead of all those guys. This year he was 15th overall behind David, Parsons and Leonard.

So the only other guy I could entertain being better than him for sure is Parsons who also has way more sacks. But over the last 2 years Quan has had better coverage and run stopping stats than all those guys.

As for playing in a 4-3, there is no one extra DL to take on blocks and the WILL is naturally unblocked a lot in the Cover 2 hence why it is the most important LB position. Hence why the WILL is typically filled by undersized guys with speed who can chase down plays unblocked which is Quan's main strength.

UK_STALEY · Aug 11, 2022

Chicagosports89 said:
Not trying to argue, but I don't think I've seen anyone call them a turnover. FF increase the chances of turnovers obviously though

FF statistics been used as turnovers quite consistently in other threads debating essentially the same thing we are here.

I just wanted to clarify as I wasn’t sure if they were classified

MikeDitkaPolishSausage · Aug 11, 2022

dabears70 said:
He's changed his throwing motion and his lead foot when taking the snap. That's what he's improved on so far, so yep he's improved but has he developed? We'll see. Odd that it's so hard for you to understand this. It's like the Poles underwhelming offseason debate with you all over again.

He has worked to improve flaws from last year. That’s improvement, that’s growth, that’s development. I never said he was statistically going to be better. Odd that you don’t know what the definition of development is.

remydat · Aug 11, 2022

bamainatlanta said:
Outside of Tillman, forcing fumbles is an entirely random statistic

Nah Leonard definitely has a skill for it and has studied Tillman extensively.

dabears70 · Aug 11, 2022

BaBaBlacksheep said:
I think he probably is top 5. Top 3 possibly. Not 1 though.

Don't know about that as of now but he damn sure could be top 3-5 if he can show out in this new defense which is very possible. Wish we could get to see what he can do in it before paying him top money.

msadows · Aug 11, 2022

Yo can we talk about training camp in here?

There are a bunch of threads focused on roquan.....

HearshotKDS · Aug 11, 2022

Chicagosports89 said:
To be fair it is almost never the best player at a position that gets paid the most. Just whoever signed a contract most recently. Which will continue to be the case until the salary cap quits rising.

And even in the covid year when cap went down it still worked that way.

Discus fish salesman · Aug 11, 2022

remydat said:
Quan led the NFL in run stops per PFF with 67. Warner and Campbell had 53, Wagner 51, Warner 48, White 46, Davis 39 and Leonard 37. So Smith had 14 more than the next closest guy. Quan was 2nd last year with 66 with David being the next best at 57. So Quan has made more plays in the run ge than anyone else over the last 2 years.

As for coverage he was 2nd in passer rating in 2020 ahead of all those guys. This year he was 15th overall behind David, Parsons and Leonard.

So the only other guy I could entertain being better than him for sure is Parsons who also has way more sacks. But over the last 2 years Quan has had better coverage and run stopping stats than all those guys.

As for playing in a 4-3, there is no one extra DL to take on blocks and the WILL is naturally unblocked a lot in the Cover 2 hence why it is the most important LB position. Hence why the WILL is typically filled by undersized guys with speed who can chase down plays unblocked which is Quan's main strength.

So pff has him with the most run stops but has him rated terribly against the run? Is a run stop just a tackle on a run? Because that means basically nothing if so. Bears have been bad against the run and consistently trailing so they get run on a lot. Most of those other guys are on teams less likely to be playing from behind consistently