Official WhiteSox Trade Discussion VOL 1

[Got teeth? Keith doesn't.]

UZR is calculated relative to other fielders in the league at your position, so it is much easier to post a good UZR in LF (an offense-first position) than in CF.
Is that why the average UZR/150 for qualified CF'ers the past three years is -0.6 while for LF'ers it is -2.6?

In stats like WAR, defense is factored in very little for a LF or 1B, because they are not important defensive positions.
In stats like WAR? So what other stats is defense factored very little in? You clearly do not know what you are talking about because defense is not calculated less in WAR for different positions.

Just look at Pods' or Pierre's career UZR's (probably other examples but i cant think of any right now) and you will see much higher numbers in LF than in the other 2 positions.
You said put Pierre in CF or RF, and his UZR would be awful, well you are half wrong, as Pierre has a career UZR/150 of 5.7 in CF and 7.5 in LF. Fail.

Basically my original point was that Figgins is a much more valuable defensive player than Pierre because he puts up good numbers at a more important position.
You mean numbers just as good as Pierre?

Listen, Figgins and Pierre are basically the same players:

OBP
Figgins: .332
Pierre: .331

ISO
Figgins: .040
Pierre: .034

wOBA
Figgins: .296
Pierre: .301

wRC+
Figgins: 84
Pierre: 81

Small sample size defensively, but their UZR's:

Figgins: -5.5
Pierre: 7.7

And WAR:

Figgins: .1
Pierre: .8

So, what is the point in trading for Figgins right now?

 

[GrinderBall41]

Listen, Figgins and Pierre are basically the same players:

OBP
Figgins: .332
Pierre: .331

ISO
Figgins: .040
Pierre: .034

wOBA
Figgins: .296
Pierre: .301

wRC+
Figgins: 84
Pierre: 81

Small sample size defensively, but their UZR's:

Figgins: -5.5
Pierre: 7.7

And WAR:

Figgins: .1
Pierre: .8

So, what is the point in trading for Figgins right now?

If Figgins and Pierre continue their current seasons as projected, yes youre right they will have similar seasons.

I didnt say Figgins was having a great year he's having the worst year of his career, thats why I said it was a BUY LOW move. He is more likely to have a good second half than Pierre because he has had a better career. And he is more likely to be a solid leadoff man over the next few years because he has had a better career.

By your logic we should not have claimed Rios last year because he had a bad first half. GM's are not morons and look at more than a year of statistics.

And yes position is definitely calculated in WAR.

 

[Got teeth? Keith doesn't.]

If Figgins and Pierre continue their current seasons as projected, yes youre right they will have similar seasons.

I didnt say Figgins was having a great year he's having the worst year of his career, thats why I said it was a BUY LOW move. He is more likely to have a good second half than Pierre because he has had a better career. And he is more likely to be a solid leadoff man over the next few years because he has had a better career.

By your logic we should not have claimed Rios last year because he had a bad first half. GM's are not morons and look at more than a year of statistics.

And yes position is definitely calculated in WAR.

He's had a slightly better career, his OPS is like .015 points better. Last year when we claimed Rios, we were 57-56, compared to right now where we are 45-38 and in more of a position to win.

And no shit, positional adjustment is calculated in WAR, but not because it is counted less or more depending on the position. :smh:

Also, don't ignore this part son:

UZR is calculated relative to other fielders in the league at your position, so it is much easier to post a good UZR in LF (an offense-first position) than in CF.
Is that why the average UZR/150 for qualified CF'ers the past three years is -0.6 while for LF'ers it is -2.6?

In stats like WAR, defense is factored in very little for a LF or 1B, because they are not important defensive positions.
In stats like WAR? So what other stats is defense factored very little in? You clearly do not know what you are talking about because defense is not calculated less in WAR for different positions.

Just look at Pods' or Pierre's career UZR's (probably other examples but i cant think of any right now) and you will see much higher numbers in LF than in the other 2 positions.
You said put Pierre in CF or RF, and his UZR would be awful, well you are half wrong, as Pierre has a career UZR/150 of 5.7 in CF and 7.5 in LF. Fail.

Basically my original point was that Figgins is a much more valuable defensive player than Pierre because he puts up good numbers at a more important position.
You mean numbers just as good as Pierre?

 

[GrinderBall41]

He's had a slightly better career, his OPS is like .015 points better. Last year when we claimed Rios, we were 57-56, compared to right now where we are 45-38 and in more of a position to win.

And no shit, positional adjustment is calculated in WAR, but not because it is counted less or more depending on the position. :smh:

Also, don't ignore this part son:

"And no shit, positional adjustment is calculated in WAR, but not because it is counted less or more depending on the position. :smh:"

That makes no sense. The positional adjustment is to correct for the fact that some positions, like LF, are much easier than others.

Haha you called me "son." Good thing your parents pay your internet bill so you can talk shit to people in sports forums kid.

is that why the average UZR/150 for qualified CF'ers the past three years is -0.6 while for LF'ers it is -2.6?

Operative word there being qualified. If all innings from all players, including part time players, is included UZR should average 0, by definition. Otherwise the stat itself makes no sense. THe idea of the stat is how many plays you make over an average player at your position.

In stats like WAR? So what other stats is defense factored very little in? You clearly do not know what you are talking about because defense is not calculated less in WAR for different positions.

I was referring to WAR itself. And yes it is. There is a positional adjustment put in for that purpose.

You said put Pierre in CF or RF, and his UZR would be awful, well you are half wrong, as Pierre has a career UZR/150 of 5.7 in CF and 7.5 in LF. Fail.

That does surprise me. Apparently he was better defensively when he was younger and played CF. Because now he just gets bad reads and has a noodle for an arm.

You mean numbers just as good as Pierre?

Yes. At a more important defensive position.

Certainly neither player is great. But Pierre is just flat out awful.

 

[Got teeth? Keith doesn't.]

"And no shit, positional adjustment is calculated in WAR, but not because it is counted less or more depending on the position. :smh:"

That makes no sense. The positional adjustment is to correct for the fact that some positions, like LF, are much easier than others.
Uh, no, it's to correct the fact that it is much easier to find, say, a good offensive 1B than a good offensive catcher. Where did you even learn about that?

Operative word there being qualified. If all innings from all players, including part time players, is included UZR should average 0, by definition. Otherwise the stat itself makes no sense. THe idea of the stat is how many plays you make over an average player at your position.
I'm not going to include players who have played a few innings, ffs. I just counted the players who have played their primary positions there.

Certainly neither player is great. But Pierre is just flat out awful.
Says the man who wants to trade for a player that's playing worse.

:smh:

 

[GrinderBall41]

You think a defensive specialist in LF or 1B is as valuable as a defensive specialist at 3B or SS. :smh:

 

[Got teeth? Keith doesn't.]

You think a defensive specialist in LF or 1B is as valuable as a defensive specialist at 3B or SS. :smh:

If the only way you think you are going to win debates is to put words in peoples mouth then :slap:

It's also funny that you want to trade for Figgins, to buy low, and then go on to call Pierre "flat out awful". Reality check: Figgins 2010 OPS: .136 points below his career average, and Pierre? .088 points.

 

[GrinderBall41]

If the only way you think you are going to win debates is to put words in peoples mouth then :slap:

You said defense is just as valuable in LF as 3B. So a LF with equal offensive numbers and UZR's to a 3B is an equal player?

 

[Got teeth? Keith doesn't.]

You said defense is just as valuable in LF as 3B. So a LF with equal offensive numbers and UZR's to a 3B is an equal player?

:sigh:

I never said that.

That might help you quite a bit.

 

[GrinderBall41]

If the only way you think you are going to win debates is to put words in peoples mouth then :slap:

It's also funny that you want to trade for Figgins, to buy low, and then go on to call Pierre "flat out awful". Reality check: Figgins 2010 OPS: .136 points below his career average, and Pierre? .088 points.

Pierre has had one decent year in the last 5 years, and that was '09. Figgins had good years in '07 '08 and '09.

Thus Figgins is more likely to be successful in the second half, as well as the next few years.

 

[Got teeth? Keith doesn't.]

Pierre has had one decent year in the last 5 years, and that was '09. Figgins had good years in '07 '08 and '09.

Thus Figgins is more likely to be successful in the second half, as well as the next few years.

LOL this is some great logic grinder!

 

[GrinderBall41]

:sigh:

I never said that.

That might help you quite a bit.

Then if you disagree with that, you agree that Figgins is more valuable than Pierre! Nice! Thanks for playing!

 

[Got teeth? Keith doesn't.]

Then if you disagree with that, you agree that Figgins is more valuable than Pierre! Nice! Thanks for playing!

You really are as stupid as I first thought you were.

 

[GrinderBall41]

LOL this is some great logic grinder!

Thanks. Fangraphs agrees. Figgins Projected 2nd half = .363 OBP, Pierre's = .335.

I would rather have a leadoff man who gets on base more wouldnt you?

 

[Got teeth? Keith doesn't.]

Thanks. Fangraphs agrees. Figgins Projected 2nd half = .363 OBP, Pierre's = .335.

I would rather have a leadoff man who gets on base more wouldnt you?

That's ZiPS, not FanGraphs, dumbass. And that still has them finishing the season with similar OPS's and wOBA's.

 

[GrinderBall41]

You really are as stupid as I first thought you were.

You said that offensively they are equal.

You said that defensively Figgins numbers are "as good" as Pierre. (His UZR is down this year I believe, but he has been playing 2B. he has proven that he is a good defensive 3B)

And you said that all things equal, a 3B is more valuable than a LF.

You have gotten caught up in your quest to be the ultimate ass-bag and have failed to follow your own logic.

 

[Got teeth? Keith doesn't.]

You're taking my words out of context and you're putting words in my mouth. Way to fucking fail. I'm done with this argument, I think my IQ has gone down a few points from putting up with your schmuck ass.

But hey, my logic can't be as bad as the man who says this:

Pierre has had one decent year in the last 5 years, and that was '09. Figgins had good years in '07 '08 and '09.

Thus Figgins is more likely to be successful in the second half, as well as the next few years.

 

[GrinderBall41]

That's ZiPS, not FanGraphs, dumbass. And that still has them finishing the season with similar OPS's and wOBA's.

WHoever puts out the numbers (which doesnt matter at all), its on Fangraphs.

And I dont care much about the SLG of a leadoff man. Obviously I would like a leadoff man with a decent SLG but more importantly I want one who gets on base.

 

[GrinderBall41]

You're taking my words out of context and you're putting words in my mouth. Way to fucking fail. I'm done with this argument, I think my IQ has gone down a few points from putting up with your schmuck ass.

But hey, my logic can't be as bad as the man who says this:

Maybe youre havng a hard time reading, because that makes perfect sense. A player with a better track record in recent years is more likely to be successful in the next few years. Come on. Even you should be able to grasp that.

Maybe your IQ has gone down due to talking yourself in circles? Couldnt have been too high in the first place since you resort to name calling and ignore facts in all your arguments on here.

 

[Got teeth? Keith doesn't.]

Couldnt have been too high in the first place since you resort to name calling and ignore facts

pot, meet kettle.