Okay this is Jimmy Butler's team

houheffna

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Because he was cleared to play in the 2013 post season and didn't? Get over it. There were plenty of reasons not to play which you're conveniently ignoring.

Not just referring to 2013. But if I were...Got dammit isn't that reason enough? Many in town, including the front office, ESPECIALLY the front office, are ready to move on. Not saying Rose is a bad person...just don't know if he is a fit anymore.

It is what it is...YOU need to get over it.
 

policeman

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Usage is garbage. It has a normalizer on a normalizer built into it. If you hae ever actually pulled the normailizer out of the Hollinger stats and just went with pure data you would realize just how shit they are. Pau has a better PER than Butler too. Don't use broken stats to make a invalid point. My guess is you don't even know how those stats are calculated.

Right- let's just use shot attempts and ignore minutes played. PER includes rebounds, blocks, and steals- so yes- Pau has a slightly higher PER- but it does not measure how awful he's been on offense. True Shooting percentage, though? That shows how awful Pau and Rose have been on offense. My guess is you don't know how PER is calculated. Don't use a broken stat to make a stupid, worthless point.
 

czman

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Right- let's just use shot attempts and ignore minutes played. PER includes rebounds, blocks, and steals- so yes- Pau has a slightly higher PER- but it does not measure how awful he's been on offense. True Shooting percentage, though? That shows how awful Pau and Rose have been on offense. My guess is you don't know how PER is calculated. Don't use a broken stat to make a stupid, worthless point.

All you had to say is:

No, no I have no clue how pace and TS are generated. It would have sufficed. After you do a rudimentary amount of homework come back and make comments.
 

policeman

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All you had to say is:

No, no I have no clue how pace and TS are generated. It would have sufficed. After you do a rudimentary amount of homework come back and make comments.

Ugh- your stupidity is apparently bottomless. Not sure if you are trolling or just really stupid- guessing the latter. You are arguing Butler is to blame for the Bulls having a bottom five offense. Butler has taken more shots than Pau and Rose- thus he's to blame. Very simple and very stupid logic on your part. . Ironic that you are accusing another poster of not understanding Pace or TS- when you can not comprehend efficiency. Let's break it down for you and destroy your stupid argument once and for all:

Per 36:

Butler: FGA: 15.1, Points: 20.7
Pau: FGA: 16.3:, Points: 18.9
Rose: FGA: 16.9, Points 15.8

Pau and Rose- per 36- shoot more than Butler and score less efficiently. That is not fucking arguable. Were Pau and Rose to score at league average efficiency- Bulls offense would be top ten- that is not fucking arguable. Bulls offense is in the toilet because their two highest volume shooters are not efficient.

Now- go off and do some rudimentary work on what constitutes efficient scoring and then come back and make some more comments. Or better yet- stop posting because you are fucking clueless.
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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Not just referring to 2013. But if I were...Got dammit isn't that reason enough? Many in town, including the front office, ESPECIALLY the front office, are ready to move on. Not saying Rose is a bad person...just don't know if he is a fit anymore.

It is what it is...YOU need to get over it.

You inferred that when the going gets tough, Rose sits out of games. What other games did Rose miss which he "should have" played in other than the 2013 post season? I'm just curious.

And, no, missing the '13 Playoffs isn't " reason enough" considering he would have been (a) ineffective and (b) the team had no hope at a title with or without him.
 

houheffna

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You inferred that when the going gets tough, Rose sits out of games. What other games did Rose miss which he "should have" played in other than the 2013 post season? I'm just curious.

And, no, missing the '13 Playoffs isn't " reason enough" considering he would have been (a) ineffective and (b) the team had no hope at a title with or without him.



That's a dumb reason not to get up off your ass and play ball when you are 100% healthy. And maybe he would have been effective had he comeback when medically cleared by doctors, which was weeks/months prior to the playoffs. I've seen Jordan argue with the front office to come back and play the best team in the league and he had a 30 win team. They wanted him to sit out the playoffs and he wouldn't. The team had NO HOPE of winning the title. I have seen Kobe do it, Lebron, Dirk, Garnett, Wade, you name them. That is what leaders do. If they can get out there, they don't make excuses like Rose did. Hell, Scottie Pippen was tougher, and I watched him quit on his team.

2013 ain't the only time Rose wore a suit. People have been questioning his low tolerance for pain and his unwillingness to get out there at 80, 85% and play ball for quite a while now.
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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That's a dumb reason not to get up off your ass and play ball when you are 100% healthy. And maybe he would have been effective had he comeback when medically cleared by doctors, which was weeks/months prior to the playoffs. I've seen Jordan argue with the front office to come back and play the best team in the league and he had a 30 win team. They wanted him to sit out the playoffs and he wouldn't. The team had NO HOPE of winning the title. I have seen Kobe do it, Lebron, Dirk, Garnett, Wade, you name them. That is what leaders do. If they can get out there, they don't make excuses like Rose did. Hell, Scottie Pippen was tougher, and I watched him quit on his team.

2013 ain't the only time Rose wore a suit. People have been questioning his low tolerance for pain and his unwillingness to get out there at 80, 85% and play ball for quite a while now.

When coming back from that kind of injury, you slowly build up minutes and gradually start to get into an all-around rhythm for the game again after that much time off. The playoffs isn't exactly the best time for that. Especially under Thibodeau's short playoff rotation. Realistically, he wasn't going to help at all.

I don't have a problem with you and others disagreeing with the decision not to play. But labeling him as a quitter and (as a typical Bulls fan would do) hold him to the Michael Jordan standard is taking it outrageously too far.

Name me one other game which Derrick Rose actually deserved criticism for not suiting up other than the 2013 playoffs? I bet you can't.
 

houheffna

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When coming back from that kind of injury, you slowly build up minutes and gradually start to get into an all-around rhythm for the game again after that much time off. The playoffs isn't exactly the best time for that. Especially under Thibodeau's short playoff rotation. Realistically, he wasn't going to help at all.

I don't have a problem with you and others disagreeing with the decision not to play. But labeling him as a quitter and (as a typical Bulls fan would do) hold him to the Michael Jordan standard is taking it outrageously too far.

Name me one other game which Derrick Rose actually deserved criticism for not suiting up other than the 2013 playoffs? I bet you can't.

That's what happened when you accuse me of "inferring" something. You didn't use that word right. I can imply, I can't infer. YOU inferred from my statement what you wanted. But I digress...back to regularly scheduled programming...

Stop coming up with lame excuses. He was cleared weeks prior to the playoffs.

You should be able to name other games on your own. Why do you think Calipari came out weeks ago talking about Rose's low pain threshold? That's not an issue if he plays when opportunity presents itself. Lets not pretend to be naive.

I named Jordan and a bunch of other superstars who have come back from injuries and even played hurt. Wade had NO BUSINESS playing basketball in 2007. He should have sat down. But its the playoffs. He wasn't having it. I called Pippen a quitter in that post, not Rose. I guess you could call Rose a quitter, but hell, you have to suit up to quit.
 

ursamajor

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Per 36:

Butler: FGA: 15.1, Points: 20.7
Pau: FGA: 16.3:, Points: 18.9
Rose: FGA: 16.9, Points 15.8

Pau and Rose- per 36- shoot more than Butler and score less efficiently. That is not fucking arguable. Were Pau and Rose to score at league average efficiency- Bulls offense would be top ten- that is not fucking arguable.

I agree, and reality bears it out. Butler is a more efficient scorer than Rose (or Pau). And the keys to Jimmy's efficiency are not a fluke. He takes better shots than Rose, and he makes his way to the line much more frequently.

He follows up a 42 point game with 32 points and 10 dimes in 38 minutes-allowing the Bulls to cruise to a 117 game... And we gotta hear about how ineffective Jimmy is.

The team's offense flows better with Jimmy creating.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
 

Bear Pride

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When the going gets tough...Rose puts a damn suit on. You're delusional. Not surprised you would call someone else a hater when you can't see straight concerning this subject.

I'd much rather put on a custom suit than put on a skirt like you....
 

Bear Pride

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That was lame...you're a lame. Did you cry when you typed that shit out? Cried like a bitch probably. Grow up.

LOL, a bitch? Did I cry? Only when I read your responses.... You only remind me of MY Bitch when I hear the constant bitching of "why isn't Rose as good as Lebron"? Then I realize your're bitching cuz you are a message board stallion, or something the guys like... say no more ....
 

houheffna

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LOL, a bitch? Did I cry? Only when I read your responses.... You only remind me of MY Bitch when I hear the constant bitching of "why isn't Rose as good as Lebron"? Then I realize your're bitching cuz you are a message board stallion, or something the guys like... say no more ....

More gay bashing? Yeah, you are a lame.
 

GalePayton

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LOL, a bitch? Did I cry? Only when I read your responses.... You only remind me of MY Bitch when I hear the constant bitching of "why isn't Rose as good as Lebron"? Then I realize your're bitching cuz you are a message board stallion, or something the guys like... say no more ....
I would just ignore that troll.
 

houheffna

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I would just ignore that troll.

You can also kiss my ass while ignoring me. Neat trick...try it. Been here long before you got here. I speak my mind and get trolled by retards like you. I don't have to troll anybody.
 

czman

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Ugh- your stupidity is apparently bottomless. Not sure if you are trolling or just really stupid- guessing the latter. You are arguing Butler is to blame for the Bulls having a bottom five offense. Butler has taken more shots than Pau and Rose- thus he's to blame. Very simple and very stupid logic on your part. . Ironic that you are accusing another poster of not understanding Pace or TS- when you can not comprehend efficiency. Let's break it down for you and destroy your stupid argument once and for all:

Per 36:

Butler: FGA: 15.1, Points: 20.7
Pau: FGA: 16.3:, Points: 18.9
Rose: FGA: 16.9, Points 15.8

Pau and Rose- per 36- shoot more than Butler and score less efficiently. That is not fucking arguable. Were Pau and Rose to score at league average efficiency- Bulls offense would be top ten- that is not fucking arguable. Bulls offense is in the toilet because their two highest volume shooters are not efficient.

Now- go off and do some rudimentary work on what constitutes efficient scoring and then come back and make some more comments. Or better yet- stop posting because you are fucking clueless.

Here is the equation for TS: Pts/(2*(FGA + (.44*FTA)))
Here is the equation to determine possessions: .96 * (FGA + (.44*FTA) - OR + TO)

If you actually remove the 0.44 normalizer and run the numbers for players with their true and one % you get far different results. Both pace and TS are based on this 0.44 normalizer. That is why those stats are shit. You don't even understand the basics of what you are talking about.

Usage, what we were talking about, actual has the 0.44 twice and another 0.33 normailizer.

You are trying to make a case with data you don't understand at all. Here is the problem with what you are typing. Butler has the ~15 shots a game, but he also has another another 100 FTs. Now he only has 16 and one attempts, not counting tonight's game against that awful Bucks team. Butler has another ~2 possessions a game that are not "shots", but they are possessions. When you factor that in; Butler is actually taking the most possessions offensively that either end in a shot or a FT attempt.

If you actually understood the data you would know that Butler does have a higher real usage rate on the Bulls, if you remove all of the BS 0.44 normalizer crap.

There is no use in trying to discuss this with you. You don't understand the data. Butler is the primary possession taker on the Bulls and the Bulls are a bottom tier offensive team.

So lets go a little deeper.

Butler this season is shooting .317 on shots take between 10'-15'. On shots 16'-inside the 3pt line he is .425.
DeMar Derozan, who by no imagination is a good shooter is .440 on shots take between 10'-15'. On shots 16'-inside the 3pt line he is .343.

So lets take another step. Butler is assisted on ~53% of his makes.
Derozan is assisted on 31%.

If you look at SG/SF that score at least 20 ppg the list is: (assist %/10-15 foot %/16-3pt% )
Thompsn .807/471/425
Wiggins .504/390/350
Butler .529/317/425
Derozan .310/440/343
Leonard .601/467/392
Anthony .368/438/409
George .441/280/404
Durant .563/495/462
James .408/314/373
Harden .298/441/381

Only 3 of those players are assisted at a higher rate (Thompson, Leonard, Durant) All 3 of them have top tier PGs.

Paul George (coming off a major injury so I feel a bit odd about adding him to this list at all) Lebron James and Wiggins are the only ones who are worse jump shooters. So of the 10 SG/SF show average 20PPG Butler and Wiggins is the only ones in the bottom 4 in both assist % and shooting.

I have said this before. All last season actually. When you get to the playoffs and the last 5 minutes you have to be able to make shots. Good teams are not going to commit stupid fouls and refs swallow the whistles. Butler is not good at creating his own shot and making jump shots when you compare him to his peers. This is why you get the bottom 5 offensive when Butler is top possession taker on a team. Especially a team without a dominant PG.
 

The Hawk

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CZMAN:

I have said this before. All last season actually. When you get to the playoffs and the last 5 minutes you have to be able to make shots. Good teams are not going to commit stupid fouls and refs swallow the whistles. Butler is not good at creating his own shot and making jump shots when you compare him to his peers. This is why you get the bottom 5 offensive when Butler is top possession taker on a team. Especially a team without a dominant PG.

Come-on, man,

Butler is having a great season and he does well taking it to the hole. You are right, though, about the Bulls not having a dominant PG. Butler's improvement the last couple of years is awesome and he has become on of the top ten all around players in the NBA in my book.THe problems with the offense have more to do with not having a good option at small forward and no point guard and that is not on Butler. It is on Garfield and friend.
 

czman

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Come-on, man,

Butler is having a great season and he does well taking it to the hole. You are right, though, about the Bulls not having a dominant PG. Butler's improvement the last couple of years is awesome and he has become on of the top ten all around players in the NBA in my book.THe problems with the offense have more to do with not having a good option at small forward and no point guard and that is not on Butler. It is on Garfield and friend.

He is not a top 10 player. If your book has him in the top 10, pages must be missing. He has about the same value as Derozan. They are a month a part in age. They are about the same size/length/athleticism. Derozan is a better iso player and shooter and Butler is a better defender. Shooting and iso have more weighed value than defense.

Butler is having a very good season. He is not boarding on elite status. He is a very good piece to a championship team. He is not offensive player people are claiming he is. He is 22nd in the league in scoring per minute on the court and 17 teams have a player better than him. This includes his last two outburts. He gets 8-9 points a game on backdoor cuts, steals open court dunks, and technical FTs (illegal defense and what have you). That shit will not be there in the last 5 minutes of playoff games.

Bulls fans overvalue Butler. He would be the third best player on most teams that have won a ring. He would be the 3rd best player on most teams that have a real chance to win it all this season. That is who is he is. He has the same value as Derozan. Derozan is not a top 10 player.

Bulls fans overvalue Butler and don't value guys like Pau/Gibson/Noah enough.
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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He is not a top 10 player. If your book has him in the top 10, pages must be missing. He has about the same value as Derozan. They are a month a part in age. They are about the same size/length/athleticism. Derozan is a better iso player and shooter and Butler is a better defender. Shooting and iso have more weighed value than defense.

Butler is having a very good season. He is not boarding on elite status. He is a very good piece to a championship team. He is not offensive player people are claiming he is. He is 22nd in the league in scoring per minute on the court and 17 teams have a player better than him. This includes his last two outburts. He gets 8-9 points a game on backdoor cuts, steals open court dunks, and technical FTs (illegal defense and what have you). That shit will not be there in the last 5 minutes of playoff games.

Bulls fans overvalue Butler. He would be the third best player on most teams that have won a ring. He would be the 3rd best player on most teams that have a real chance to win it all this season. That is who is he is. He has the same value as Derozan. Derozan is not a top 10 player.

Bulls fans overvalue Butler and don't value guys like Pau/Gibson/Noah enough.

Hawk is dumb for saying the Bulls don't have a PG.

And I'm not sure why you think DeRozan is a better shooter than Butler. He's simply not at all.

Butler is a better finisher at the rim. DeRozan is the better ball handler. Shooting is negligible.
 

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