Okay this is Jimmy Butler's team

[czman]

For someone who is a worse iso scorer than Derozan, Jimmy sure does put up more points per isolation

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&CF=Points*G*50&sort=PPP

The frequency that you do something is important. Players who do it ~2x as much are going to be less effective. Also, Iso does not account for all of the times a player creates his own shot:

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/ball-handler/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&CF=Points*G*50&sort=PPP

So yes, Derozan is better at getting his own shot without anyone passing the ball to him.

 

[clonetrooper264]

The frequency that you do something is important. Players who do it ~2x as much are going to be less effective. Also, Iso does not account for all of the times a player creates his own shot:

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/ball-handler/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&CF=Points*G*50&sort=PPP

So yes, Derozan is better at getting his own shot without anyone passing the ball to him.

But James Harden isos more than anyone and is better than a good chunk of people he isos ~2x or even 3x more than.

Also that ball handler stat is just referring to pick and roll plays where that player is the primary ball handler. So therefore the logic is Derozan isos 2x more than Jimmy and also scores off the pick and roll better so therefore Derozan is better?

 

[czman]

Butler takes 53% of his shots with 0-1 dribble.
Derozan 35%.

I am not saying that I think Derozan is a better player. Given a choice between Butler and Derozan I would take Butler; primarily because he plays harder on a regular basis. I just am illustrating the point that Butler is not the offensive player people are calming him to be. His scoring is inefficient when you consider how many baskets he gets that are assisted and how little he creates his own shot.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Butler takes 53% of his shots with 0-1 dribble.
Derozan 35%.

I am not saying that I think Derozan is a better player. Given a choice between Butler and Derozan I would take Butler; primarily because he plays harder on a regular basis. I just am illustrating the point that Butler is not the offensive player people are calming him to be. His scoring is inefficient when you consider how many baskets he gets that are assisted and how little he creates his own shot.

Inefficient how? Is Klay Thompson inefficient because he gets a vast majority of his shots off of catch and shoot situations? You may very well be correct in your statement, but your parameters are unclear to me. What are you measuring your efficiency as? Clearly it's not by TS% or PER (not even an efficiency rating but whatever), so I guess I just was never able to determine what barometer you're using.

 

[czman]

I am not going to split hairs is Butler is slightly better player than Rerozan. There is no value. The point is they are close enough to compare them and call the pretty damn equal. If someone wants to give more value to Butler because of rebounding or toughness or defense I am good with that. The point is, Butler is a lot closer to Derozan than Durant or James. Butler is a 2nd tier star and nowhere near the level some people are claiming he is.

 

[clonetrooper264]

I am not going to split hairs is Butler is slightly better player than Rerozan. There is no value. The point is they are close enough to compare them and call the pretty damn equal. If someone wants to give more value to Butler because of rebounding or toughness or defense I am good with that. The point is, Butler is a lot closer to Derozan than Durant or James. Butler is a 2nd tier star and nowhere near the level some people are claiming he is.

No argument from me on this. Imo Butler is 2nd tier and no higher.

 

[czman]

Inefficient how? Is Klay Thompson inefficient because he gets a vast majority of his shots off of catch and shoot situations? You may very well be correct in your statement, but your parameters are unclear to me. What are you measuring your efficiency as? Clearly it's not by TS% or PER (not even an efficiency rating but whatever), so I guess I just was never able to determine what barometer you're using.

That makes no sense:
Thompsn /47/43/43

Butler /32/43/33

Based on FG% by distance. So yes, Thompson is not creating his own shot. he is shooting far better though. If Butler had a higher FG% or the same FG% but more scoring without direct assistance from others.

Most players lose efficiency as they have to do more for themselves. Butler does not shoot a high % and does not create for himself as much as others in his group. The other players outside of Wiggins all either shot significantly better or created their own shot more frequently.

 

[clonetrooper264]

That makes no sense:
Thompsn /47/43/43

Butler /32/43/33

Based on FG% by distance. So yes, Thompson is not creating his own shot. he is shooting far better though. If Butler had a higher FG% or the same FG% but more scoring without direct assistance from others.

Most players lose efficiency as they have to do more for themselves. Butler does not shoot a high % and does not create for himself as much as others in his group. The other players outside of Wiggins all either shot significantly better or created their own shot more frequently.

What makes no sense? I'm just asking what you're defining as efficiency. Are you saying in order to be efficient you need to shoot high percentages from everywhere OR be scoring almost always by yourself?

 

[czman]

What makes no sense? I'm just asking what you're defining as efficiency. Are you saying in order to be efficient you need to shoot high percentages from everywhere OR be scoring almost always by yourself?

I think it is pretty clear. Of the SG/SF who score 20ppg Butler and Wiggins are the two worst when it comes to creating their own shot and making the shot.

Butler is not a guy who is going to be guy who is the best player on a team and that team have a good offense. Butler is not going to best player on a team that wins a ring.

I am leaving work now. So we can agree to disagree if you want.

 

[Scoot26]

I think it is pretty clear. Of the SG/SF who score 20ppg Butler and Wiggins are the two worst when it comes to creating their own shot and making the shot.

Butler is not a guy who is going to be guy who is the best player on a team and that team have a good offense. Butler is not going to best player on a team that wins a ring.

I am leaving work now. So we can agree to disagree if you want.

I think you both agree on this point, which is all that really matters.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

Niko + Kings pick for Trevor Ariza

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

James, CLE
Curry, GSW
Durant, OKC
Westbrook, OKC
Leonard, SAS
George, IND
Paul, LAC
Davis, NOP
Griffin, LAC
Aldridge, SAS
Harden, HOU
Lillard, POR
Wall, WAS
Love, CLE
Cousins, SAC
Thompson, GSW
Butler, CHI
Lowry, TOR
Irving, CLE
Millsap, ATL

The best I can estimate, Butler is a top 15-20 player. I'm not going to argue he's a first tier player. But he is, however, clearly the best player on the Bulls. And would be the best player on the majority of NBA teams right now.

 

[Axl Rose]

Niko + Kings pick for Trevor Ariza

ehh i'd rather hold onto Niko

i'd probably do Niko for Noel though. that might be a solid deal for both sides.

but thats more of a rebuild/retool move although you could then flip Taj/Noah for a wing

 

[Enasic]

Niko + Kings pick for Trevor Ariza

Hell no.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Hell no.

I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic as he usually is.

 

[ursamajor]

The frequency that you do something is important. Players who do it ~2x as much are going to be less effective. Also, Iso does not account for all of the times a player creates his own shot:

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/ball-handler/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&CF=Points*G*50&sort=PPP

So yes, Derozan is better at getting his own shot without anyone passing the ball to him.

I wouldn't say that. Butler is effective even if the ball is not in his hands. Reminds me a lot of a prime Rip Hamilton. Butler can be a ball dominant player if need be, or he can stress a defense away from the ball. There is a reason why he gets an oop or 2 a game, as well as regularly getting open looks at the rim.

Some players need the ball to stay in their hands to be effective.

Some players are best without the ball in their hands.

Butler can do both. I'd say he is a more complete offensive player that Derozan.

Butler has a pretty complete offensive game.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[czman]

No argument from me on this. Imo Butler is 2nd tier and no higher.

Butler is not going to be the man on a championship team. I don't even think he will be next to the man. He most likely will be the man next to the man championship team. In some cases he may be the man next to the next to the god damn man.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Butler is not going to be the man on a championship team. I don't even think he will be next to the man. He most likely will be the man next to the man championship team. In some cases he may be the man next to the next to the god damn man.

Okay then...

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Butler is not going to be the man on a championship team. I don't even think he will be next to the man. He most likely will be the man next to the man championship team. In some cases he may be the man next to the next to the god damn man.

If the 2004 Pistons can win a title without a player better than Jimmy Butler than why can't Jimmy Butler win as the best player on the Bulls? The 2014 Spurs didn't exactly have a stud superstar player either with Duncan past his prime and Leonard still coming into his own.

Never say never.

 

[Scoot26]

If the 2004 Pistons can win a title without a player better than Jimmy Butler than why can't Jimmy Butler win as the best player on the Bulls? The 2014 Spurs didn't exactly have a stud superstar player either with Duncan past his prime and Leonard still coming into his own.

Never say never.

Because the 04 Pistons didn't have to go through the best player in the NBA, and the 2014 Spurs were a well experienced in championship history from coach to their aging stars to the new up and coming star in Leonard.

And you're listing 2 champions out of 66 champions thus giving the Bulls about a 3% chance at a title.