OT: Doug Collins says 76ers were "maxed out"

[CODE_BLUE56]

I think Dwight Howard was probably just about as good as Bill Russell. He was definitely the better scorer. Passing- maybe not. Better teammate/leader- maybe not.

i think there's a good case either way...it would only help my point if you consider him as good as bill russell

 

[clonetrooper264]

There is quality depth at the C position. It is not top heavy at all and that I agree with. Dwight Howard is not even a HOF lock quite yet. It seems like a very big stretch to say that Bynum will crack the top 10 players in the game. He is pretty far behind even Dwight Howard.

And all of the players I mentioned are centers/5-men by today's NBA standards.

Bosh, Duncan, Garnett, Horford, Nene, Al Jefferson, and Ibaka all play at the 5 the vast majority of their playing time. The Thunder made the Finals with Ibaka playing nothing but C and the Heat won the Finals with Bosh playing 5 practically whenever he was on the floor.

What? So Perkins was the PF then...ok.

Ibaka's a PF man, so is Bosh. Bosh plays C because there is NO ONE on that Heat team that is even remotely close to being a C except him. He plays it out of necessity, not because he's an actual C. On any team with another decent center on the team, both of them would be PFs.

The Duncan and Garnett thing is debatable because over the course of their careers they have played primarily PF. Garnett has only recently made the move to C full time, as has Duncan. I won't argue too much if you want to call them C's, but imo they're still more PF's.

Of the guys you mentioned Horford, Nene, and Jefferson are the only ones who have actually spent the majority or all of their careers at C. Even then you could say that they were better suited for PF. Same could be said for Noah as well.

Sure the current NBA has "looser" standards for the center position you could say, but even then a lot of those guys are 4/5 tweeners rather than full out 5s. When you think of NBA centers you think of Bynum and Howard and Marc Gasol and similar players. When you think of PFs you think of Garnett, Ibaka, Pau Gasol, and Bosh. Could those players you commonly think of as PFs play C? Sure, but that doesn't really make them legit Cs.

 

[Crystallas]

The bigger deal is that the league has shifted away from traditional Centers. It really doesn't matter any more, as long as that team has a plan to counter the production of the few Centers in the NBA that can control the paint.

 

[scottiepippen1994]

I think Dwight Howard was probably just about as good as Bill Russell. He was definitely the better scorer. Passing- maybe not. Better teammate/leader- maybe not.

WUT?

 

[houheffna]

ehhhhhhhhhhh.....90s he'd probably be 5th( behind robinson,ewing,olajuwon, and shaq)...in the 80s he'd probably be 2nd to kareem...70s actually had a good crop of centers, i would put dwight somewhere in the top 5 though,maybe behind kareem and cowens

60s i would think he'd be right behind russell and chamberlain

but this all assumes that dwight howard would undergo similar regiments of training that these centers went through in their time....if you plop dwight howard of now against some of these guys, i think he would dominate(not so much against the 90s centers, but 80s and back)

In the 80's Howard would be second? With Parrish, Hakeem, Ewing all running around? I don't agree with that at all. Plus the best center in that decade was Moses Malone in my opinion. In the 70's, Lanier was a better skilled player...but guys like Willis Reed and Nate Thurmond were great players.

I wouldn't take him over a healthy Bill Walton in the 1970's and I wouldn't take him over Bob McAdoo.

Howard dominates his era due to attrition, not skill.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

In the 80's Howard would be second? With Parrish, Hakeem, Ewing all running around? I don't agree with that at all. Plus the best center in that decade was Moses Malone in my opinion. In the 70's, Lanier was a better skilled player...but guys like Willis Reed and Nate Thurmond were great players.

I wouldn't take him over a healthy Bill Walton in the 1970's and I wouldn't take him over Bob McAdoo.

Howard dominates his era due to attrition, not skill.

patrick ewing wasn't that great in the 80s tbh...he didn't really start dominating until the early 90s..so i would take him off the list

hakeem could be argued, but the pace and team PPG in the late 80s was high...so i think at that point i take dwight over him because dwight would have some pretty nice stats in that era...now in the 90s when hakeem had refined his post moves and the pace slowed i'm taking hakeem for sure

parrish? i get he played with mchale and bird, but no....

i actually forgot about moses malone..in that case, i put dwight 3rd

i wouldn't put a healthy bill walton over dwight, willis reed no,bob mcadoo i would though...i think there can be a good case for lanier

nate thurmond was better in the 60s, he had one good season in the 70s....(late 60s stats were crazily inflated)

i think except for the 90s, dwight is a top 3-4 center in the league

you have to take into account what kind of stats dwight would put up in those eras

 

[houheffna]

patrick ewing wasn't that great in the 80s tbh...he didn't really start dominating until the early 90s..so i would take him off the list

hakeem could be argued, but the pace and team PPG in the late 80s was high...so i think at that point i take dwight over him because dwight would have some pretty nice stats in that era...now in the 90s when hakeem had refined his post moves and the pace slowed i'm taking hakeem for sure

parrish? i get he played with mchale and bird, but no....

i actually forgot about moses malone..in that case, i put dwight 3rd

i wouldn't put a healthy bill walton over dwight, willis reed no,bob mcadoo i would though...i think there can be a good case for lanier

nate thurmond was better in the 60s, he had one good season in the 70s....(late 60s stats were crazily inflated)

i think except for the 90s, dwight is a top 3-4 center in the league

you have to take into account what kind of stats dwight would put up in those eras

Hakeem was an allstar each year he played in the 1980's and he was better than Kareem at that point. Ewing was 3 times all nba from 88-90. Not bad since he was drafted in 1986.

I am considering skill more so than pace. Just about every guy I named would be a more skilled player offensively than Dwight Howard. If you look at pace, athleticism and all that...any player from today's game would dominate. That being the case...Lebron James would probably be a top 3 center in any era also.

Comparing Walton to Howard skill wise is like comparing Hakeem to Ben Wallace.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

What? So Perkins was the PF then...ok.

Durant, Sefolosha, Harden, and Westbrook got the lion's share of the minutes. When Ibaka, Collison, and Perkins (who got the least minutes) were in the game, they were playing the 5 practically the entire time.

Ibaka's a PF man, so is Bosh. Bosh plays C because there is NO ONE on that Heat team that is even remotely close to being a C except him. He plays it out of necessity, not because he's an actual C. On any team with another decent center on the team, both of them would be PFs.

PF is both of their most natural positions. But last season, you better believe most of Bosh's and Ibaka's PT was at the 5. And those were the 2 best team's in the NBA so you can't really say it didn't work.

The Duncan and Garnett thing is debatable because over the course of their careers they have played primarily PF. Garnett has only recently made the move to C full time, as has Duncan. I won't argue too much if you want to call them C's, but imo they're still more PF's.

I'm talking about right now- not 2 years ago. Duncan has been a full-time C for a few years, actually.

Of the guys you mentioned Horford, Nene, and Jefferson are the only ones who have actually spent the majority or all of their careers at C. Even then you could say that they were better suited for PF. Same could be said for Noah as well.

I disagree about Noah. He doesn't have the offensive skills to be best-suited at the 4.

Sure the current NBA has "looser" standards for the center position you could say, but even then a lot of those guys are 4/5 tweeners rather than full out 5s. When you think of NBA centers you think of Bynum and Howard and Marc Gasol and similar players. When you think of PFs you think of Garnett, Ibaka, Pau Gasol, and Bosh. Could those players you commonly think of as PFs play C? Sure, but that doesn't really make them legit Cs.

I never included Pau Gasol. It was Marc.

 

[Diddy1122]

I am considering skill more so than pace. Just about every guy I named would be a more skilled player offensively than Dwight Howard. If you look at pace, athleticism and all that...any player from today's game would dominate. That being the case...Lebron James would probably be a top 3 center in any era also.

I think the physicality of the game should also be taken into account. Howard is all upper body, with no lower body strength. He uses his superior athleticism to try to jump over & through smaller "centers" (which the current NBA is in abundance of). Put him up against the likes of Robinson, Shaq, Moses, Ewing, hell even Laimbeer & his "skills" would be rendered nearly useless due to the physical abuse he would endure on a daily basis & the fact that he has zero game outside of 10 feet.

Howard is talented (especially on the defensive end) but at this point in this career he should have patented at least 1 go-to move & worked on his lower body & post moves to take full advantage of the severe lack of size in today's NBA.

 

[houheffna]

I think the physicality of the game should also be taken into account. Howard is all upper body, with no lower body strength. He uses his superior athleticism to try to jump over & through smaller "centers" (which the current NBA is in abundance of). Put him up against the likes of Robinson, Shaq, Moses, Ewing, hell even Laimbeer & his "skills" would be rendered nearly useless due to the physical abuse he would endure on a daily basis & the fact that he has zero game outside of 10 feet.

Howard is talented (especially on the defensive end) but at this point in this career he should have patented at least 1 go-to move & worked on his lower body & post moves to take full advantage of the severe lack of size in today's NBA.

Exactly...even Laimbeer's backup, James "Buddha" Edwards had a go to move. Edwards always had the fadeaway from the side. And it was money. Even Old Wilt in the 1970's was better than Dwight skill wise. Dude could run an offense from the high post...how many centers can do that today?

 

[clonetrooper264]

Durant, Sefolosha, Harden, and Westbrook got the lion's share of the minutes. When Ibaka, Collison, and Perkins (who got the least minutes) were in the game, they were playing the 5 practically the entire time.

lol

Sefolosha averaged like 21 minutes a game...hardly a lion's share. Lion's share went to Durant, Westbrook, and Harden, yes, but not to Sefolosha. He and Fisher pretty much split time with Harden getting the difference.

Obviously Perkins was playing center the whole time he was in the game, he is a center. Ibaka did spend some time at center, but hardly all of his time. Ibaka spent a good chunk of his time playing with Perkins. Furthermore, Perkins did not get the least minute, Collison did. Perkins and Ibaka pretty much averaged 27 minutes each.

PF is both of their most natural positions. But last season, you better believe most of Bosh's and Ibaka's PT was at the 5. And those were the 2 best team's in the NBA so you can't really say it didn't work.

I do believe the vast majority of Bosh's minutes were at center, not as much for Ibaka. And it worked because they have elite backcourt guys backing them up. Those guys made up 4 of the top 10 players in the league which no other team can say they boast.

I'm talking about right now- not 2 years ago. Duncan has been a full-time C for a few years, actually.

Can't have been more than like 4 or 5 years ago if even that. That's recent to me. :dunno:

I disagree about Noah. He doesn't have the offensive skills to be best-suited at the 4.

Eh...debatable. He gets that midrange jumper remotely consistent and I think he'd be decent at the 4 playing next to another good center.

I never included Pau Gasol. It was Marc.

I mentioned both so not sure what the issue is. I added Pau because he fits the mold as well.

 

[Crystallas]

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

Hakeem was an allstar each year he played in the 1980's

that's cool

and he was better than Kareem at that point.

right...i was talking about the era as a whole

in the early 80s..kareem and malone could be argued to be the best among the bigs, dwight would be third..then kareem would take a back seat to hakeem and ewing as we entered the 90s....

if we're talking about the 80s as a whole, then kareem or malone was probably the best, but the problem is some of these guys didn't play in all of the 80s, or declined as the 80s progressed..so you get discrepancy

i think in any point in the 1980s dwight would have been top 5

Ewing was 3 times all nba from 88-90. Not bad since he was drafted in 1986.

good for him

I am considering skill more so than pace. Just about every guy I named would be a more skilled player offensively than Dwight Howard.

i guess it could argued that those guys were more skilled(honestly, i'm not so sure about ewing at that point, but dwight is pretty unrefined, so i guess i can concede that)...but even if that's all true, this is about looking at the player as a whole.

Dwight is a freak athlete,strong, great on defense,etc. His calling point is overpowering people. Could you imagine dwight howard's defense in a more physical league? That would be something to watch

He would also be having better stats because of the pace, which is important when comparing the players, because often stats are brought up

If you look at pace, athleticism and all that...any player from today's game would dominate.

john lucas III!

That being the case...Lebron James would probably be a top 3 center in any era also.

sure, why not?

The bolded is what you originally said:

If Howard played in any other era...he would NOT be the best center in the league, and in most eras, he wouldn't be top 5.

i agree with the first part, the second not so much

Comparing Walton to Howard skill wise is like comparing Hakeem to Ben Wallace.

i'm sure bill walton would love to face dwight in the 70s, that would be fun:yep:

 

[houheffna]

that's cool



right...i was talking about the era as a whole

in the early 80s..kareem and malone could be argued to be the best among the bigs, dwight would be third..then kareem would take a back seat to hakeem and ewing as we entered the 90s....

if we're talking about the 80s as a whole, then kareem or malone was probably the best, but the problem is some of these guys didn't play in all of the 80s, or declined as the 80s progressed..so you get discrepancy

i think in any point in the 1980s dwight would have been top 5



good for him



i guess it could argued that those guys were more skilled(honestly, i'm not so sure about ewing at that point, but dwight is pretty unrefined, so i guess i can concede that)...but even if that's all true, this is about looking at the player as a whole.

Dwight is a freak athlete,strong, great on defense,etc. His calling point is overpowering people. Could you imagine dwight howard's defense in a more physical league? That would be something to watch

He would also be having better stats because of the pace, which is important when comparing the players, because often stats are brought up


john lucas III!



sure, why not?

The bolded is what you originally said:

If Howard played in any other era...he would NOT be the best center in the league, and in most eras, he wouldn't be top 5.

i agree with the first part, the second not so much




i'm sure bill walton would love to face dwight in the 70s, that would be fun:yep:

There really wasn't a time in Olajuwon's career up to his decline that he WASN'T better than Howard. Pretty much a no-brainer there. Now if you stand a 25 year old Hakeem and today's Howard side by side and pick who you would want...if you pick Howard, you would be standing with a very small group...probably with Howard's family members. Olajuwon would have eaten him alive.

Howard is big and physical...whoopee. So was Wes Unseld. Most of those centers were big and physical. But they had more skill.

 

[97Bulls]

Id make the argument that Daugherty, Smits, and definitely Mourning would be ranked higher than Howard had he played in the 90s.

 

[Crystallas]

You could even go as far as saying that Howard may not have been a Center in past eras.

 

[97Bulls]

There really wasn't a time in Olajuwon's career up to his decline that he WASN'T better than Howard. Pretty much a no-brainer there. Now if you stand a 25 year old Hakeem and today's Howard side by side and pick who you would want...if you pick Howard, you would be standing with a very small group...probably with Howard's family members. Olajuwon would have eaten him alive.

Howard is big and physical...whoopee. So was Wes Unseld. Most of those centers were big and physical. But they had more skill.[/QUOTE

I often wonder how dominant Howard would be if he actually had to defend centers on a nightly basis and not be able to roam like he
can now

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

There really wasn't a time in Olajuwon's career up to his decline that he WASN'T better than Howard. Pretty much a no-brainer there. Now if you stand a 25 year old Hakeem and today's Howard side by side and pick who you would want...if you pick Howard, you would be standing with a very small group...probably with Howard's family members. Olajuwon would have eaten him alive.

in a heightened pace with more physicality..not 100% sure...i honestly think it can be argued either way...

hakeem, i dont think, had gotten to upper echelon level of skill until the 90s

even if you are right....at that point in the late 80s, dwight would still be a top 5 center, no?

Howard is big and physical...whoopee. So was Wes Unseld. Most of those centers were big and physical. But they had more skill.

wes unseld was 6'7 lol, he was not big

he was physical, but not nearly on the level of dwight howard

the point is that dwight is a freak of nature in strength and athleticism and physicality...in the 90s, i think he could be handled better

80s and 70s? man i would love to see dwight play there

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

There really wasn't a time in Olajuwon's career up to his decline that he WASN'T better than Howard. Pretty much a no-brainer there. Now if you stand a 25 year old Hakeem and today's Howard side by side and pick who you would want...if you pick Howard, you would be standing with a very small group...probably with Howard's family members. Olajuwon would have eaten him alive.

Howard is big and physical...whoopee. So was Wes Unseld. Most of those centers were big and physical. But they had more skill.[/QUOTE

I often wonder how dominant Howard would be if he actually had to defend centers on a nightly basis and not be able to roam like he
can now

what?

 

[97Bulls]

what?

What do you mean what?