OT: Doug Collins says 76ers were "maxed out"

[CODE_BLUE56]

What do you mean what?

i mean, what you do mean by roam around? like, roam around the paint, and dunk? or just roam around the floor?

because there's a massive difference

 

[houheffna]

in a heightened pace with more physicality..not 100% sure...i honestly think it can be argued either way...

hakeem, i dont think, had gotten to upper echelon level of skill until the 90s

even if you are right....at that point in the late 80s, dwight would still be a top 5 center, no?




wes unseld was 6'7 lol, he was not big

he was physical, but not nearly on the level of dwight howard

the point is that dwight is a freak of nature in strength and athleticism and physicality...in the 90s, i think he could be handled better

80s and 70s? man i would love to see dwight play there

Boy are you wrong on that one! He was a big guy, just as Barkley was big. To play center in the 70's...he had to be pretty damn physical. You don't go against Kareem, Lanier, Moses, etc. as some undersized, soft center. He was one of the more physical players in league history. I don't think Howard is even allowed to be that type of player. He was considered an intimidator.

 

[97Bulls]

i mean, what you do mean by roam around? like, roam around the paint, and dunk? or just roam around the floor?

because there's a massive difference

Of course the paint. We're talking about centers right? How often does Howard have to really have a big defensive assignment as far as the oppositions center? Kendrick Perkins was considered a top 10 center in this league at one time. Id take Luc Longley over over Perkins.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

lol

Sefolosha averaged like 21 minutes a game...hardly a lion's share. Lion's share went to Durant, Westbrook, and Harden, yes, but not to Sefolosha. He and Fisher pretty much split time with Harden getting the difference.

28, 37, 27, 27, 9 (in a blow-out loss). Ibaka averaged less minutes in the series than Sefolosha until the final game. Perkins only averaged 17. If you actually watched the Finals, you would know that Ibaka rarely played the PF position. It lasted the first few minutes of the game until Perkins was subbed out.

Ibaka did spend some time at center, but hardly all of his time. Ibaka spent a good chunk of his time playing with Perkins. Furthermore, Perkins did not get the least minute, Collison did. Perkins and Ibaka pretty much averaged 27 minutes each.

Everything you said there is false. Pretty utterly false too.

 

[Crystallas]

I know this has been beaten to a pulp, but the Bulls have to see what the 76ers did, and try for a similar result. Bynum is still a solid player.

 

[clonetrooper264]

28, 37, 27, 27, 9 (in a blow-out loss). Ibaka averaged less minutes in the series than Sefolosha until the final game. Perkins only averaged 17. If you actually watched the Finals, you would know that Ibaka rarely played the PF position. It lasted the first few minutes of the game until Perkins was subbed out.



Everything you said there is false. Pretty utterly false too.

Did you say at any point that you were talking about the finals? I don't recall you saying that. I used regular season numbers which are in fact, 100% correct.

Yes I watched the finals, and yes I saw Ibaka playing center because the Thunder played small ball to match up with the Heat. Not denying that. Again, my stats were from the regular season, not the finals or even the playoffs.

But ok...we're talking about the finals. Ibaka averaged according to nba.com 26.4 mpg. Sefolosha averaged 26. But yes, that's due to the last game where Sefolosha only played 9 minutes, I'll give you that. But I'm not wrong in saying that Ibaka averaged more minutes. Furthermore, Perkins averaged 23.2 mpg in the finals, not 17. And while I'm proving myself right, Collison averaged 16.6 minutes...the LEAST of all 3 OKC big men.

Oh look...I'm right. Pretty utterly right.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I was talking about the Finals.

Read again.

And it was the Thunder's choice to play to Miami's up-tempo style. They could have gone a more traditional route and would have been much better off.

The only 5 OKC players who averaged over half of the game: Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka, Fisher. That tells you right there that (not only was Durant playing as a 4 but Ibaka was playing as a 5. Perkins did play almost half of the games as the 5 but Ibaka was playing the other 26 of his 29-ish total minutes.

 

[clonetrooper264]

I was talking about the Finals.

Read again.

And it was the Thunder's choice to play to Miami's up-tempo style. They could have gone a more traditional route and would have been much better off.

The only 5 OKC players who averaged over half of the game: Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka, Fisher. That tells you right there that (not only was Durant playing as a 4 but Ibaka was playing as a 5. Perkins did play almost half of the games as the 5 but Ibaka was playing the other 26 of his 29-ish total minutes.

Oh you must be referring to your statement of how OKC made it to the finals with Ibaka playing nothing but center? That statement is still false, but ok, I acknowledge my slip up in remembering that we were talking about the finals.

I also just posted the numbers which say that Sefolosha averaged over half the game as well. But I've already agreed that the Thunder were playing small ball with Ibaka at 5 for a bit and a little with Collison when Perkins was out of the game. Regardless, Perkins averaged about 24 minutes a game, all at center, leaving only 24 minutes for Ibaka/Collison to play. Ibaka averaged 26 minutes a game...probably half of which were played with Perkins. That's hardly playing entirely at center.

The point wasn't that Ibaka couldn't play center, it was that he wasn't primarily a center. I'm pretty sure I've proved that point, so I'm not sure what you're arguing anymore...

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

OKC Finals' minute chart:

C- Perkins (24 min), Ibaka (15 min), Collison (8), Aldrich (<1 min)
PF- Durant (25), Ibaka (11), Collison (8), Sefolosha (<2)
SF- Durant (17), Harden (16), Sefolosha (12), Cook (2), Hayward (<1)
SG- Westbrook (21 min), Harden (16), Sefolosha (12)
PG- Fisher (26 min), Westbrook (21 min), Ivey (<1)

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Miami's minute chart:

Bosh (30), Haslem (16), Turiaf/Howard/Anthony (2)
James (42), Bosh (6)
Battier (37), Jones (8), James (3)
Wade (38), Miller (9)
Chalmers (36), Cole (9), Wade (3)

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

My point:

The Thunder (were in) the Finals with Ibaka playing (essentially) nothing but C and the Heat won the Finals with Bosh playing 5 practically whenever he was on the floor.

Not wrong here.

 

[FirstTimer]

There is enough depth at the center position besides Bynum: Howard, Bosh, Cousins, Horford, Al Jefferson, Hibbert, Marc Gasol, Chandler, Bogut, Ibaka, McGee, Monroe, Kaman, Noah, Lopez, Nene, Gortat.

Then there are the older, established centers: Duncan, Garnett,

Then there are up-and-coming centers: Anthony Davis, Favors, Kanter, Drummond

And I say he will never crack the top 10 because his work ethic isn't very good. And will he ever be as good as LeBron, Dwight, Durant, Jabari Parker, Chris Paul, Deron Williams, and Russell Westbrook? Extremely unlikely. And young other young talent like Derrick Rose is still there along with players who could very well pass by him next season such as Kyrie Irving.

:andruw:

 

[FirstTimer]

I think Dwight Howard was probably just about as good as Bill Russell. He was definitely the better scorer. Passing- maybe not. Better teammate/leader- maybe not.

:andruw:

WUT?

 

[FirstTimer]

My point:



Not wrong here.

Except that you don't understand the concept of sample size.

 

[clonetrooper264]

OKC Finals' minute chart:

C- Perkins (23 min), Ibaka (22 min), Collison (2), Aldrich (<1 min)
PF- Durant (28), Collison (15), Ibaka (4), Sefolosha (<2)
SF- Sefolosha (24), Durant (15), Harden (4), Cook (2), Hayward (<1)
SG- Harden (27), Westbrook (21 min)
PG- Fisher (26 min), Westbrook (21 min), Ivey (<1)

Did you just make up that chart?

Pretty sure Ivey, Hayward, and Aldrich didn't really sniff any playing time whatsoever except for maybe the last few minutes of blowouts. Furthermore, Ibaka played only 4 minutes at PF? I assume that means that you're saying he and Perkins played all of 4 minutes together all game...clearly false just looking at the rotation patterns. Perkins and Ibaka played generally at least 6-8 minutes together just in the 1st and 3rd quarters alone. Take game 1 for example. Thunder's first substitution came with 4:58 to go in the 1st quarter. Harden and Collison came in for Sefolosha and Ibaka. That means that Ibaka played about 7 minutes with Perkins. We can extrapolate from that rotation pattern that Ibaka probably played at least 5 minutes a half with Perkins each game, and probably a little more barring foul trouble.

On top of that, you have Sefolosha playing 0 minutes at SG...completely negating the fact that he STARTED at SG. But of course...he was switching from SG to SF to PF on defense wasn't he?

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Your right about Sefolosha playing a few minutes at SG in the very beginning of the games. But the vast majority of the time, he was at the 3. And there was actually an 8-minute stretch in the third quarter of Game 2 where their OKC line-up was Collison-Sefolosha-Cook-Harden-Fisher.

Those minute charts are otherwise accurate though.

 

[FirstTimer]

LOL at the epic failures by Rami in this thread.

 

[FirstTimer]

Your right about Sefolosha playing a few minutes at SG in the very beginning of the games. But the vast majority of the time, he was at the 3. And there was actually an 8-minute stretch in the third quarter of Game 2 where their OKC line-up was Collison-Sefolosha-Cook-Harden-Fisher.

Those minute charts are otherwise accurate though.

They actually aren't at all. That's kind of what has been pointed out to you over and over and over and over again

 

[clonetrooper264]

Your right about Sefolosha playing a few minutes at SG in the very beginning of the games. But the vast majority of the time, he was at the 3. And there was actually an 8-minute stretch in the third quarter of Game 2 where their OKC line-up was Collison-Sefolosha-Cook-Harden-Fisher.

Those minute charts are otherwise accurate though.

Well that's cool. All that tells me is that OKC ran with a super small ball lineup with a bunch of shooters. Sefolosha may very well have played a good chunk of his minutes at SF...after all, Harden was taking up a lot of the SG minutes, as was Fisher/Westbrook (whoever you consider the SG) when they ran their small lineup. Since Sefolosha was pretty much guarding Lebron every minute that he was in the game (he being Sefolosha), I wouldn't be surprised if he did in fact play most of his minutes at the 3. That's not really the point of what I was saying though. Your chart is wrong based off of Ibaka's minutes mostly.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

OKC Finals' minute chart:

C- Perkins (24 min), Ibaka (19 min), Collison (3), Aldrich (<1 min)
PF- Durant (27), Collison (13), Ibaka (7), Sefolosha (<2)
SF- Sefolosha (12), Durant (15), Harden (16), Cook (2), Hayward (<1)
SG- Westbrook (21 min), Harden (16), Sefolosha (12)
PG- Fisher (26 min), Westbrook (21 min), Ivey (<1)

Okay. Now it is fixed.