OT: Doug Collins says 76ers were "maxed out"

[clonetrooper264]

Okay. Now it is fixed.

Actually, it's not. But good try!

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Actually, it's not. But good try!

It is. I looked at the minute logs more and adjusted it for the 1st and 3rd quarter time in which Perkins and Ibaka played together. And I added in Sefolosha's minutes at SG.

 

[clonetrooper264]

It is. I looked at the minute logs more and adjusted it for the 1st and 3rd quarter time in which Perkins and Ibaka played together. And I added in Sefolosha's minutes at SG.

You did...but not correctly.

 

[FirstTimer]

What an abortion of a thread.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

You did...but not correctly.

I see what I did now.

C- Perkins (24 min), Ibaka (15 min), Collison (8), Aldrich (<1 min)
PF- Durant (25), Collison (8), Ibaka (11), Sefolosha (<2)
SF- Durant (17), Harden (16), Sefolosha (12), Cook (2), Hayward (<1)
SG- Westbrook (21 min), Harden (16), Sefolosha (12)
PG- Fisher (26 min), Westbrook (21 min), Ivey (<1)

I didn't weigh in that about half of Collison's minutes were without Ibaka and Perkins thereby making him the used C for 8 minutes. Perkins almost 24 + Collison 8 = 32. 48-49 total min/gm minus 32 = about 15-16 min at C for Ibaka. And the rest of Ibaka's minutes were about 10-11 for the PF position.

I maintain that Ibaka plays enough C to be at least put into the conversation when it comes to NBA centers. But he is a natural PF and I agreed with you on that from the beginning.

 

[FirstTimer]

I see what I did now.

C- Perkins (24 min), Ibaka (15 min), Collison (8), Aldrich (<1 min)
PF- Durant (25), Collison (8), Ibaka (11), Sefolosha (<2)
SF- Durant (17), Harden (16), Sefolosha (12), Cook (2), Hayward (<1)
SG- Westbrook (21 min), Harden (16), Sefolosha (12)
PG- Fisher (26 min), Westbrook (21 min), Ivey (<1)

I didn't weigh in that about half of Collison's minutes were without Ibaka and Perkins thereby making him the used C for 8 minutes. Perkins almost 24 + Collison 8 = 32. 48-49 total min/gm minus 32 = about 15-16 min at C for Ibaka. And the rest of Ibaka's minutes were about 10-11 for the PF position.

I maintain that Ibaka plays enough C to be at least put into the conversation when it comes to NBA centers. But he is a natural PF and I agreed with you on that from the beginning.

WAIT WHAT?!?! I thought Thabo played PF.

 

[nwfisch]

WAIT WHAT?!?! I thought Thabo played PF.

Only on defense

 

[clonetrooper264]

I maintain that Ibaka plays enough C to be at least put into the conversation when it comes to NBA centers. But he is a natural PF and I agreed with you on that from the beginning.

The conversation of players who can play center? Sure. He is, as you said, a natural PF though, not really a center. My point was that even though a player can play center in today's NBA doesn't really make them a real center. Ibaka can play center for stretches, sure, but he's not a center.

 

[FirstTimer]

The conversation of players who can play center? Sure. He is, as you said, a natural PF though, not really a center. My point was that even though a player can play center in today's NBA doesn't really make them a real center. Ibaka can play center for stretches, sure, but he's not a center.

It's amazing that this even has to be explained.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Howard, Hibbert, Marc Gasol, Chandler, Bogut, McGee, Kaman, Noah, Lopez, Gortat.

Those are all pure centers not named Bynum. And that doesn't include a lot of players very capable of playing the position at a high level. Not very top heavy but there is depth.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Howard, Hibbert, Marc Gasol, Chandler, Bogut, McGee, Kaman, Noah, Lopez, Gortat.

Those are all pure centers not named Bynum. And that doesn't include a lot of players very capable of playing the position at a high level. Not very top heavy but there is depth.

Wasn't the argument that other decades had much better depth than right now? That still holds true.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Wasn't the argument that other decades had much better depth than right now? That still holds true.

Depth is different than being top heavy though.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

Of course the paint. We're talking about centers right? How often does Howard have to really have a big defensive assignment as far as the oppositions center? Kendrick Perkins was considered a top 10 center in this league at one time. Id take Luc Longley over over Perkins.

A. more big men in today's game operate in a wide zone on the floor, because perimeter skills are being stressed more at a young age. You see less and less formal bigs. Which makes context important, because roaming for a big man can also mean roaming around the floor, not just in the paint. Because you would expect a capable defender from a past area to marginalize the amount of space a player can operate.

B. you've said some really weird stuff before, is it really that ridiculous for me to assume you meant roam around the floor, rather than just paint, when you dont give context?

C. if you think howard's only defensive job is the opposing center, then you have a problem

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

Boy are you wrong on that one! He was a big guy, just as Barkley was big.

so..he wasn't really that big, he just played big and/or was big laterally

i get that, but dwight playing big and being laterally big wasn't what i was hinting at..it's the fact that he is big in pretty much every facet possible

He was one of the more physical players in league history. I don't think Howard is even allowed to be that type of player. He was considered an intimidator.

howard probably is as physical as can be limited. There is literally nothing finesse about his game, and his strength is incredible. I also partly meant he was a physical specimen, which is a big reason he is so good.

 

[FirstTimer]

Depth is different than being top heavy though.

Meh. Not really. You have two "great" centers in the NBA right now..then a bunch of dudes. While there may be "depth" because of the "dudes"..the position itself is pretty top heavy because only two guys have really separated themselves from the herd. Especially in comparing era's relative to this discussion this era's center position is pretty top heavy...with some filler back in behind the two other guys.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Depth is different than being top heavy though.

I'd say that other decades had more depth and was more top heavy...

 

[nwfisch]

Meh. Not really. You have two "great" centers in the NBA right now..then a bunch of dudes. While there may be "depth" because of the "dudes"..the position itself is pretty top heavy because only two guys have really separated themselves from the heard. Especially in comparing era's relative to this discussion this era's center position is pretty top heavy...with some filler back in behind the two other guys.

It reminds me of saying the 2004 Pacers would beat the 2012 Heat because Jamal Tinsley and Jeff Foster are better than Shane Battier and Joel Anthony...ignoring the fact the Heat have LeBron, Wade and Bosh.

 

[Diddy1122]

Meh. Not really. You have two "great" centers in the NBA right now..then a bunch of dudes. While there may be "depth" because of the "dudes"..the position itself is pretty top heavy because only two guys have really separated themselves from the heard. Especially in comparing era's relative to this discussion this era's center position is pretty top heavy...with some filler back in behind the two other guys.

There's no "depth" at Center in the current NBA. In fact, the position itself is nearly extinct. There are more hybrid centers (long, athletic PF's who can play both positions) then there are TRUE centers. Bynum is one of maybe 4 TRUE centers in the league. By that I mean a back-to-the-basket, bang in the post Center. He's the only center with go-to post moves & the upper & lower body strength to move anyone out of his way. Howard struggles to score when he's not barreling through someone from the high post or jumping through them, & I'm supposed to consider him a HOF-talent player? Or better than the majority of Centers in the 70's, 80's, & 90's? Not saying Bynum is either, but I think he would hold up better against most of the guys mentioned in this thread than Howard.

 

[clonetrooper264]

There's no "depth" at Center in the current NBA. In fact, the position itself is nearly extinct. There are more hybrid centers (long, athletic PF's who can play both positions) then there are TRUE centers. Bynum is one of maybe 4 TRUE centers in the league. By that I mean a back-to-the-basket, bang in the post Center. He's the only center with go-to post moves & the upper & lower body strength to move anyone out of his way. Howard struggles to score when he's not barreling through someone from the high post or jumping through them, & I'm supposed to consider him a HOF-talent player? Or better than the majority of Centers in the 70's, 80's, & 90's? Not saying Bynum is either, but I think he would hold up better against most of the guys mentioned in this thread than Howard.

You neglect Howard's elite level of defense though in the HOF consideration. After all...Rodman made it based on his rebounding and defensive prowess alone pretty much. As much as Howard lacks in offensive skills, he makes up for it in defensive ability.