OT: Ranking the 30 Best NBA teams from 2000-'12

[CODE_BLUE56]

1-2.

6, 7, 4, 4, 6, 6, 5, 3, 7, 3, 7, 4

Those are beyond James' rookie year and well above his turnover/gm average.

i didn't say he wasn't always turnover prone, in fact i said the opposite

he averaged 4.4 TOs per game..which is about one more than his average..if you're looking at how artest has handled lebron throughout lebron's career, but you're looking at different artests and different lebrons

i wouldn't say causing one more TO per game shows that artest guarded james well overall

my point about james being a rookie is that how 2003-2004 artest would handle lebron now would be different than he handled lebron back then

so, would lebron average the same amount of TOs now as he did then? maybe, but who knows?

citing SPECIFICALLY how perhaps 2007-2008 artest did against 2007-2008 and using that kind of evidence conclusively for 2003-2004 artest vs. 2011-2012 lebron is odd to me

Artest isn't going to be letting James get easy baskets inside. What makes James who he is, is his strength and speed when you give him a little bit of space to penetrate in the lane. Artest was too much of a bull (much like James) to allow James to dominate inside or the post.

artest gives up a good 2-3 inches....

how do we really know how artest can guard in the paint? he's not a low block defender, nor has he ever been

if artest can't contain lebron on the perimeter where he is at his best, how can we expect him to contain lebron on the low block?

How many times did James score over his career average vs. Artest? 3 out of 16 times (and barely over- one of those times he was with the Kings). Artest also held him to his averages or maybe even slightly lower from the field.

so that shows he can effectively guard him?
the point is that even a good artest would be an interesting matchup against lebron but would not contain him in the post,much less on the perimeter(as been proven)

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Lebron is & always will be a threat anywhere on the court because he's Lebron. And he's more of a post threat than Amare because he is an incredible passer.

Lebron played with his back to the basket ALOT in the OKC series. When OKC would show help to double, he would kick it to a wide open shooter. It's the reason why Battier, Chalmers, & Miller absolutely destroyed the Thunder with their outside shooting.

Very good point and more true about game 5 than any other game in the series.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

He receives the ball at the top the VAST majority of the time and dribbles to where he wants to go. Does he receive the ball in the post sometimes? Yes, but mostly he dribbles to where he wants to go. And that is made incredibly easy when you have Sefolosha and Harden trying to guard you ONE-on-ONE!

did you even watch the finals..

alot of the time lebron caught the ball and immediately posted up....

he did not receive the ball up top and dribbled his way to a post up...

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

i didn't say he wasn't always turnover prone, in fact i said the opposite

he averaged 4.4 TOs per game..which is about one more than his average..if you're looking at how artest has handled lebron throughout lebron's career, but you're looking at different artests and different lebrons

i wouldn't say causing one more TO per game shows that artest guarded james well overall

my point about james being a rookie is that how 2003-2004 artest would handle lebron now would be different than he handled lebron back then

so, would lebron average the same amount of TOs now as he did then? maybe, but who knows?

citing SPECIFICALLY how perhaps 2007-2008 artest did against 2007-2008 and using that kind of evidence conclusively for 2003-2004 artest vs. 2011-2012 lebron is odd to me




artest gives up a good 2-3 inches....

how do we really know how artest can guard in the paint? he's not a low block defender, nor has he ever been

if artest can't contain lebron on the perimeter where he is at his best, how can we expect him to contain lebron on the low block?



so that shows he can effectively guard him
the point is that even a good artest would be an interesting matchup against lebron but would not contain him in the post,much less on the perimeter(as been proven)

In regard to defending LBJ in the post- LBJ is mainly a face-up scorer even in the post. That is the area where Artest shines on defense. And LBJ could barely back down Artest even if he wanted to. Would Artest have a hell of a time guarding LBJ inside? Yes. But the point is that he is a better option to guard LBJ than 95+% of the rest of the NBA.

The advantage MIA would've had at SF is mitigated by the fact that Artest is certainly capable of making things difficult for LeBron.

I already did concede that IND probably wasn't better than MIA though earlier in this thread.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

did you even watch the finals..

alot of the time lebron caught the ball and immediately posted up....

he did not receive the ball up top and dribbled his way to a post up...

Yeah, I saw the Finals. LBJ basically either (a) caught the ball at the low wing and dribbled into a post-up, (b) caught the ball in the post and faced-up, or (c) caught the ball in the post and backed down. Or (d) caught the ball at the top and drove right THROUGH whoever was attempting to guard him one-on-one and get fouled (most of the time).

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

Rami. Stop.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

In regard to defending LBJ in the post- LBJ is mainly a face-up scorer even in the post. That is the area where Artest shines on defense. And LBJ could barely back down Artest even if he wanted to. Would Artest have a hell of a time guarding LBJ inside? Yes. But the point is that he is a better option to guard LBJ than 95+% of the rest of the NBA.

no one said he wouldn't be a good option against lebron

but lebron is stronger,quicker, and taller in the post...i think it's hard to argue

and again, artest isn't a small guy, but we still don't really know how artest is as a post defender...we could say that lebron would have a hard time pushing artest back, but we really don't know(defending in the post,even with a face up, is not nearly the same as defending the jumper on the wing)

we do know that lebron is stronger, however..and that lebron is comfortable and experienced in the post

lebron mixes it up in the post, i would say he does his fair share of face up and hooks,spins,etc.

dragging artest to the post also opens up considerable advantages to be exploited in the perimeter

The advantage MIA would've had at SF is mitigated by the fact that Artest is certainly capable of making things difficult for LeBron.

A. Artest was one of the main options on that team offensively, artest would have much more trouble against lebron than lebron would have against artest

B. "capable of making things difficult"...except artest in his prime had trouble against a young and unrefined lebron who barely used a post option

C. So,in summation, the advantage would not be mitigated..lebron would win that advantage by a distinct margin imo..

I already did concede that IND probably wasn't better than MIA though earlier in this thread.

then i guess the point is moot, but my point is that while artest is a good defender, lebron would still have a distinct advantage and would cause all kinds of trouble, not just with his scoring,but also with his passing

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

Rami. Stop.

should i stop feeding it?

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

Yeah, I saw the Finals. LBJ basically either (a) caught the ball at the low wing and dribbled into a post-up, (b) caught the ball in the post and faced-up, or (c) caught the ball in the post and backed down. Or (d) caught the ball at the top and drove right THROUGH whoever was attempting to guard him one-on-one and get fouled (most of the time).

then,literally, in only one of those 4 situations did lebron really get the ball at the top and substantially drove the ball


again, lebron did most of his work in the post

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

This forum is no longer fun because of Rami. Congrats Rami.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

Maybe I'm just a glutton for punishment.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

This forum is no longer fun because of Rami. Congrats Rami.

I did my job. :farley:

 

[FirstTimer]

The funny thing also is that Rami in this thread has contradicted himself on what he was saying/proposing/supporting in the NBA Finals thread.

In the Finals thread: Rami was supporting the idea that the Thunder should have used Ibaka on James because James was posting up so much on guys like Thabo. Going so far as to argue that Thabo was playing "defensive power forward" for the Thunder because James was in the post so much.

In this thread: James was scoring mainly from the arc, and/or was getting the ball mainly near the arc or on the wing. Not only is this the exact opposite of what Rami was arguing a few days ago, but it also make putting Ibaka on James even more a curious/horrible choice as one would think that if James was getting the ball on the arc/scoring most of his point from the arc the last thing you would want to do is put a slower defender on him to allow James easier access to driving to the rim if he wasn't starting closer to there to begin with.

In the matter of a few days Lebron James went from killing the Thudner inside so badly that Rami had Thabo Sefolosha confused with a power forward to scoring most of his points from near the 3pt line.

Pretty impressive versatility on James' part.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

LBJ received the ball outside of the post/paint and (the majority of the time), he dribbled into the post/paint to score.

No contradiction there.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

PS- Rory and Firsttimer are the 2 biggest losers I have ever come across on the internet.

You literally spend all day on this forum just to alter/twist meanings of statements. I feel sorry for you.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

FT got banned?

shit must have gone down....literally

 

[FirstTimer]

LBJ received the ball outside of the post/paint and (the majority of the time), he dribbled into the post/paint to score.

Again, not what you said in the other thread and not what actually happened in the game.

Had you mentioned the above in the other thread there is no way you could have seriously considered putting Ibaka on James.

As usual you are wrong.

You literally spend all day on this forum just to alter/twist meanings of statements. I feel sorry for you.

Don't get mad at us because your bullshit gets called out. Just quit posting bullshit.

 

[JosMin]

Can we put the '93-'94 Mavericks on this list, too?

 

[FirstTimer]

 

[JosMin]

THOSE CARDS WERE THE SHIT.