OT: Who Is The Most Overrated Player In The NBA?

[Chi-Town Brahma]

Blake

Sooo true.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I believe Lebron's abilities offensively is the reason why people would take him over Rose. You are pretty much saying offensively that Rose is better than Lebron, and I disagree.

That is absolutely not what I've been saying and offense is not the main reason smart fans would take James over Rose. I said that at a PURELY offensive stand-point, choosing between which player is the best overall at playing the PG position, I give Rose the edge over James. James is obviously better offensively in a SG/SF/PF role. Look at assists numbers, pace of both teams, and turnover numbers and I have actual statistical evidence on my side.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

And bringing Oscar Robertson into the discussion is irrelevant. Robertson is mostly credited for having such high per-game assist and rebounding numbers to go along with his high scoring numbers. And he played in a very fast-paced era where a lot of possessions came off of fast breaks. It was not an uncommon thing to see starting players come close to 10 rebounds per-game. And calling him a top 15 player is far from an insult considering the thousands of players throughout NBA history. Weighing in career legacies and factoring in whether a player was an innovator or not has nothing to do with who is better.

In regard to the actual James-Rose discussion, Rose is faster and has better ball-handling skills. Rose gets deeper in his dribble penetration than James when he is playing from the top of the key. You will see Rose get all the way from the top to the basket multiple times per-game and you never know if he is going to shoot it or set up a teammate. James does not get into the heart of the lane nearly as often. In fact, much more of James' assists come from getting doubled close to the top of the key and then swinging the ball out to an open long-range shooter cross-court.

 

[houheffna]

And bringing Oscar Robertson into the discussion is irrelevant. Robertson is mostly credited for having such high per-game assist and rebounding numbers to go along with his high scoring numbers. And he played in a very fast-paced era where a lot of possessions came off of fast breaks. It was not an uncommon thing to see starting players come close to 10 rebounds per-game. And calling him a top 15 player is far from an insult considering the thousands of players throughout NBA history. Weighing in career legacies and factoring in whether a player was an innovator or not has nothing to do with who is better.

In regard to the actual James-Rose discussion, Rose is faster and has better ball-handling skills. Rose gets deeper in his dribble penetration than James when he is playing from the top of the key. You will see Rose get all the way from the top to the basket multiple times per-game and you never know if he is going to shoot it or set up a teammate. James does not get into the heart of the lane nearly as often. In fact, much more of James' assists come from getting doubled close to the top of the key and then swinging the ball out to an open long-range shooter cross-court.

I swear sometimes I think you have NEVER watched Lebron James play basketball You once said that Lebron never used "give and go" in Cleveland...I posted 2 or 3 videos with him doing just that. Now you claim the guy gets to the line 10 times a game based on his ability to penetrate HALFWAY TO THE GOAL? C'mon bruh...you have to know better than that. NOBODY STOPS HIM ONE ON ONE...period!!! That is what makes him a great player.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I swear sometimes I think you have NEVER watched Lebron James play basketball You once said that Lebron never used "give and go" in Cleveland...I posted 2 or 3 videos with him doing just that. Now you claim the guy gets to the line 10 times a game based on his ability to penetrate HALFWAY TO THE GOAL? C'mon bruh...you have to know better than that. NOBODY STOPS HIM ONE ON ONE...period!!! That is what makes him a great player.

I got a little carried away when I said he never used give-and-go, but now you're just fishing. The truth is that Rose and James both demand a double team when they have the ball on the floor. The difference is that Rose has an easier time of penetrating a double-team and team defense than James does, and that is the main reason Rose is the better (watch the words I use carefully) offensive point guard.

 

[houheffna]

I got a little carried away when I said he never used give-and-go, but now you're just fishing. The truth is that Rose and James both demand a double team when they have the ball on the floor. The difference is that Rose has an easier time of penetrating a double-team and team defense than James does, and that is the main reason Rose is the better (watch the words I use carefully) offensive point guard.

Now watch the words I use carefully...you are too stuck on titles, when the roles are exactly the same!!! Remember when people insisted that once Rose's teammates were better offensively, he would prove to be a better point guard...same with Lebron. Point guard...point forward...what do they have in common...they both run the point.

And if you think Rose demands double teams more than Lebron does, you are bat-crazy! People might not double Lebron at times because they CAN'T, (Wade, Bosh, etc.) but Lebron was immensely successful as the facilitator in Cleveland with little to work with.

I am not fishing, I used the give and go example to show that you used some basketball jargon to totally invent an argument. I still say there is nobody I would rather have with the basketball night in and night out on a routine basis than Lebron James. Based on what you may ask? Based on what he has done his whole career! He played pg in high school! This is not something new to him.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

I'll say this, in terms of college careers, Rose >>>>> Lebron

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Now watch the words I use carefully...you are too stuck on titles, when the roles are exactly the same!!! Remember when people insisted that once Rose's teammates were better offensively, he would prove to be a better point guard...same with Lebron. Point guard...point forward...what do they have in common...they both run the point.

And if you think Rose demands double teams more than Lebron does, you are bat-crazy! People might not double Lebron at times because they CAN'T, (Wade, Bosh, etc.) but Lebron was immensely successful as the facilitator in Cleveland with little to work with.

I am not fishing, I used the give and go example to show that you used some basketball jargon to totally invent an argument. I still say there is nobody I would rather have with the basketball night in and night out on a routine basis than Lebron James. Based on what you may ask? Based on what he has done his whole career! He played pg in high school! This is not something new to him.

"Point forward" is a very vague term. Let's look at LeBron for what he is. Who cares what he did in high school; that is irrelevant. A large amount of time when LeBron James has the ball, he receives it in the high-post and isolates. That has always been the case. And this year, he is in the low-post even more often.

And if you want to try to make the argument of 'if James wanted to be he could be the best floor general at PG' that (a) simply isn't the case because he isn't even playing that role enough of the time anymore. And (b) when he was in that role more often as a member of the Cavs, those teams were consistent and successful because of defense and rebounding. Offense was a place where the Cavs struggled. The Rose-led Bulls have had their struggles on offense, as well. But at least Rose is putting up more efficient AST:TOV ratio than LeBron ever did in Cleveland. And that is despite the fact that LeBron actually had some decent secondary play-makers on his team. West and Williams would get you 6-7 assists per-game regular to take some of the pressure off of James. Rose has had all of the opposing defensive pressure on him and is still the more dependable PG. That should tell you something.

 

[houheffna]

"Point forward" is a very vague term. Let's look at LeBron for what he is. Who cares what he did in high school; that is irrelevant. A large amount of time when LeBron James has the ball, he receives it in the high-post and isolates. That has always been the case. And this year, he is in the low-post even more often.

And if you want to try to make the argument of 'if James wanted to be he could be the best floor general at PG' that (a) simply isn't the case because he isn't even playing that role enough of the time anymore. And (b) when he was in that role more often as a member of the Cavs, those teams were consistent and successful because of defense and rebounding. Offense was a place where the Cavs struggled. The Rose-led Bulls have had their struggles on offense, as well. But at least Rose is putting up more efficient AST:TOV ratio than LeBron ever did in Cleveland. And that is despite the fact that LeBron actually had some decent secondary play-makers on his team. West and Williams would get you 6-7 assists per-game regular to take some of the pressure off of James. Rose has had all of the opposing defensive pressure on him and is still the more dependable PG. That should tell you something.

Point Forward is only vague to you...most people know what a point forward is because of Scottie Pippen, a forward who facilitated the offense here in Chicago. I don't know why it would be vague after watching Pippen play.

Now...you are using one stat as the basis of your argument. Based on that one stat, Calderon is better at the point position than anybody else. And Lebron's higher turnover ratio coincides with his higher percentage of usage. By the way, of the 5 rings the goat of pgs has, he finished in top 5 in pace...once.

So yeah, Lebron, for what he can do on offense as a whole, is the league's best facilitator...I would consider taking Paul over Lebron, because Paul is the best pure pg in my opinion and makes his teammates better at a higher rate than Lebron or Rose does. But still I lean towards Lebron James.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Point Forward is only vague to you...most people know what a point forward is because of Scottie Pippen, a forward who facilitated the offense here in Chicago. I don't know why it would be vague after watching Pippen play.

Now...you are using one stat as the basis of your argument. Based on that one stat, Calderon is better at the point position than anybody else. And Lebron's higher turnover ratio coincides with his higher percentage of usage. By the way, of the 5 rings the goat of pgs has, he finished in top 5 in pace...once.

So yeah, Lebron, for what he can do on offense as a whole, is the league's best facilitator...I would consider taking Paul over Lebron, because Paul is the best pure pg in my opinion and makes his teammates better at a higher rate than Lebron or Rose does. But still I lean towards Lebron James.

"Point forward" is a very vague term because it could mean a number of different things and there are so many different type of point forwards out there. The term is used to describe a player who has tendencies of both a forward and a of a point guard. That could describe a great number of players today and throughout history.

James is a point-forward because he can score like a forward, pass like a point guard, and defend like a point guard. He can also score like a point guard, but I wouldn't say that is the strong point of his game. I believe that Rose is nearly as good of a passer as James (if not better in some circumstances) and a lot of that involves his superior dribble-penetration skills which set up high percentage baskets than James typically gets for his teammates. Rose also has a vast array of finesse moves to score around the basket from mid-range- including what is probably the best floater in the league. James (when he is taking the role PG on a certain offensive possession) will more typically settle for a contested three-point shot than Rose. I'm not saying Rose never does that either, but James is much more susceptible to taking that shot than Rose simply because he can raise up over just about defender. That is a very good quality to have in a SG or SF offensively but not so much of a good quality in a PG because it kills the offensive team rhythm.

This year, and any year James has played (regardless of pace), he has had better help when it comes to teammates with ball-handling and passing skills. Rose is at least as ball-dominant as James and his team's offensive is more reliant than James' is on him yet Rose still averages more assists (despite inferior scorers as teammates) and less turnovers.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

I'll say this, in terms of college careers, Rose >>>>> Lebron

in terms of SATs

Rose>Lebron

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

in terms of SATs

Rose>Lebron

Tell ya what.....I'm going to make you show your work.

 

[houheffna]

"Point forward" is a very vague term because it could mean a number of different things and there are so many different type of point forwards out there. The term is used to describe a player who has tendencies of both a forward and a of a point guard. That could describe a great number of players today and throughout history.

James is a point-forward because he can score like a forward, pass like a point guard, and defend like a point guard. He can also score like a point guard, but I wouldn't say that is the strong point of his game. I believe that Rose is nearly as good of a passer as James (if not better in some circumstances) and a lot of that involves his superior dribble-penetration skills which set up high percentage baskets than James typically gets for his teammates. Rose also has a vast array of finesse moves to score around the basket from mid-range- including what is probably the best floater in the league. James (when he is taking the role PG on a certain offensive possession) will more typically settle for a contested three-point shot than Rose. I'm not saying Rose never does that either, but James is much more susceptible to taking that shot than Rose simply because he can raise up over just about defender. That is a very good quality to have in a SG or SF offensively but not so much of a good quality in a PG because it kills the offensive team rhythm.

This year, and any year James has played (regardless of pace), he has had better help when it comes to teammates with ball-handling and passing skills. Rose is at least as ball-dominant as James and his team's offensive is more reliant than James' is on him yet Rose still averages more assists (despite inferior scorers as teammates) and less turnovers.

Again, Lebron over his career has a higher usage rate than Rose. And if you think the Bulls depend on Rose more than the Cavaliers depended on Lebron....well, you must have been watching a lot of hockey from 2008-2010

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

in terms of SATs

Rose>Lebron

Tell ya what.....I'm going to make you show your work.

Actually, I mean, you can show your work if you want. I hate to make it seem like I'm trolling your post.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

Point forward to me means just the same as I imagine it means to most people: A forward who runs the offense for their team. Like hou said earlier, it ain't Mario Chalmers who is running the offense for the Heat.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

Apologies to hou for trolling.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Again, Lebron over his career has a higher usage rate than Rose. And if you think the Bulls depend on Rose more than the Cavaliers depended on Lebron....well, you must have been watching a lot of hockey from 2008-2010

Obviously, the Cavs depended more upon James than the Bulls do now on Rose. There is no denying that. But the reason the Cavs depended so much upon James had to do with the fact that James was being used as the PG for the majority of possessions and (in other offensive possessions), Delonte West/Mo Williams were the main facilitators and set up LeBron James to score as a forward.

And, this year, James definitely is being utilized as a forward in his team's offense much more-so than as a PG.

 

[houheffna]

Obviously, the Cavs depended more upon James than the Bulls do now on Rose. There is no denying that. But the reason the Cavs depended so much upon James had to do with the fact that James was being used as the PG for the majority of possessions and (in other offensive possessions), Delonte West/Mo Williams were the main facilitators and set up LeBron James to score as a forward.

And, this year, James definitely is being utilized as a forward in his team's offense much more-so than as a PG.

...because of Wade.

This "score as a pg" and "score as a forward" stuff is absolute crap. So Payton and Cassell scored as centers because they were in the post? Makes no sense. Lebron was primary ballhandler and scorer for Cleveland. West and Williams' primary job was to shoot the ball.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

...because of Wade.

This "score as a pg" and "score as a forward" stuff is absolute crap. So Payton and Cassell scored as centers because they were in the post? Makes no sense. Lebron was primary ballhandler and scorer for Cleveland. West and Williams' primary job was to shoot the ball.

It's not only because of Wade. Chalmers and Cole are also getting decent minutes. Chalmers is often a wing player but often times, he is the primary ball-handler. Cole is solely a play-maker off of the dribble as a PG.

The roles for West, James, and Williams changed possession by possession. There were times where James was the primary ball-handler and Williams and West/Parker would be spotting-up beyond the three-point lane to spread the floor. There were other possessions where either West or Williams (7+ assists per-game) would handle the ball at the top and give the ball to James where he would isolate at the wing as a SF. Granted, a lot of their assists came from swinging the ball around the perimeter with James kicking it out to open shooters, but that wasn't always the play. James would isolate like a SG in the high-post very often and that is something Rose does not do often. And Cassell and Payton did not post-up the majority of the time. When they had a weaker and/or shorter defender on them (or they had no other reliable option), they would often isolate and post up the smaller player. That is something LeBron James did not typically do anyway because he was not the type of player to do that often enough to speak of. It's a moot point bringing that up because all that is, is an isolation play and it isn't traditional offense.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Rose plays nearly 40 minutes per-game and he is nearly always the primary ball-handler. Not to mention, his usage percentage is slightly higher than James these days. Yet he is averaging less turnovers than James despite the fact defenses the Bulls' offense face ALWAYS know who is going to have the ball when Rose is on the floor- unlike the Heat.