PIPPEN Vs. RODMAN Who was the BEST defender in Bulls History?

97Bulls

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so you think rodman was a better defender in a bulls uni than ben wallace was any time in his career?

Yes, because the centers were really bad during wallaces time. I'm positive wallace would not have 4 dpoy awards if he played in the 90s. In fact, he wouldn't have any.

We can back and forth about this all day. Show me some cold hard facts that support your claim that wallace was a better defender than rodman.

I've already dispelled the multiple dpoy awards argument.

Wallace has more blocks. And was definatley a better shotblocker. But rodman was much better at taking charges. Id say he avg at least 2-3 charges a game. And charges are much more valuable to a defense than blocking shots. Cuz its an automatoc TO, and it counts as a personal foul.

Understand I'm not saying wallace was a bad defender, but I do feel he was a product of his time and thus overrated.
 

97Bulls

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I'm not trying to pick a fight at all...I'm just 100% sure of my statements..plus I'm tired of the false information being written on these posts lately...Most of them by people who were wee toddlers in the 90s and really don't know what the hell there talking about RAMI....There are people from around the world that read this and may be sent off in the wrong direction...My purpose is to correct the frauds..

I apologise for the mispelling of Duncan.....whoooopsy......I type very fast...

Have a nice day and go Bulls.

Fixed.
 

CODE_BLUE56

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Yes, because the centers were really bad during wallaces time. I'm positive wallace would not have 4 dpoy awards if he played in the 90s. In fact, he wouldn't have any.

We can back and forth about this all day. Show me some cold hard facts that support your claim that wallace was a better defender than rodman.

I've already dispelled the multiple dpoy awards argument.

Wallace has more blocks. And was definatley a better shotblocker. But rodman was much better at taking charges. Id say he avg at least 2-3 charges a game. And charges are much more valuable to a defense than blocking shots. Cuz its an automatoc TO, and it counts as a personal foul.

Understand I'm not saying wallace was a bad defender, but I do feel he was a product of his time and thus overrated.

lol the thing about defense is its harder to support with cold hard facts other than defensive rating,blocks,etc. and those are all flawed..simply showing how a player did against a great big man in,like one, series means jackshit

Ben Wallace has 64.6 DWS in his career compared to Rodman's 52.9. Rodman played 8 more career games than Wallace, and still has 11.7 less DWS than Wallace!(of course that was in 09, i found this on another site and i found it interesting)

im not going to make the argument that ben wallace was better than rodman if we look at their primes, because i think rodman was slightly better(versatile,unbelievable rebounder).

but i think that rodman,by the time he got to chicago, was certainly a good defender, but not on the level that he used to be

you have to remember rodman was 34 when he joined the bulls, and not to mention in the late 90s some of the great big men of the era were aging(not going to make the argument that they still did not dominate in some regard..but i think by the late 90s we started seeing a transition)

rodman was more versatile and arguably the better rebounder

wallace was a much better blocker and had more length inside...you have to also remember that its not always about individual matchups..but units vs. units..for example post vs post...or even in the sense of guards who make a living getting to the basket...

these slashing guards are partly the assignment of the corresponding defender, but also the assignment of the post defender who tries to make sure that the guard does not finish the play..

if i'm looking at wallace in his prime in detroit vs. rodman in chicago...i'll take wallace..although both arent bad options defensively

wallace did play against some good big men in his time(mourning,shaq,duncan,garnett)
and you cant definitively say "oh well he didnt defend him because he's a center"...you have to consider, again, its not always about individual matchups...

i think its also hard to say that if rodman were the same age that he was when he joined the bulls and played in the 2000s he would have won as many DPOYs as wallace..maybe so maybe not...on the flip side...hard to say if ben wallace would have won any DPOYs from 95-98..although the 3 DPOYs in that time were Payton,Mutombo, and Mutombo again
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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The only reason anybody could think Rodman>Wallace on defense is because they are a Bulls/Rodman fan. Simple as that.

I spent the first half of this thread defending Rodman from the people who said he barely did anything on defense with the Bulls in his time here.

And the second part of this thread I spent dispelling this notion that Wallace was no Rodman on defense.
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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97Bulls has pretty much proven how little he knows he making the basketball Special person claim that

Bulls Rodman > Early Pistons Wallace on defense
 

houheffna

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I thought you didn't want to include defensive ratings heff. Besides, defensive ratings are kind of skewed in this aspect because the centers wallace faced were garbage.

Kobe and wade are SGs.

And while mark jackson wasn't nearly the caliber of scorer that paul and westbrook were, he's definately as good a point guard as paul when it comes to running an offense, and much better than westbrook.

And off course you don't see pippen and rodman dominating. Look at your track record. When it comes to pippen, your about as unreasonable as they come. Rodman too.

What the **** makes you think I don't know Wade and Kobe are SGs? Really, what makes you think I don't know that. Are you serious?

They are also perimeter players, which you so often claim Pip was so great at stopping...He ain't stopping these boys in the league today, and he wouldn't be the best small forward in the league today.

Your point about Westbrook in comparison with Jackson is....typical. Pippen couldn't guard Westbrook because Westbrook is a much more athletic, stronger, faster player than Jackson was. Westbrook is a better player...no point guards were doing what these guys are doing now, with maybe the exception of Penny Hardaway.
 

houheffna

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Yes, because the centers were really bad during wallaces time. I'm positive wallace would not have 4 dpoy awards if he played in the 90s. In fact, he wouldn't have any.

We can back and forth about this all day. Show me some cold hard facts that support your claim that wallace was a better defender than rodman.

I've already dispelled the multiple dpoy awards argument.

Wallace has more blocks. And was definatley a better shotblocker. But rodman was much better at taking charges. Id say he avg at least 2-3 charges a game. And charges are much more valuable to a defense than blocking shots. Cuz its an automatoc TO, and it counts as a personal foul.

Understand I'm not saying wallace was a bad defender, but I do feel he was a product of his time and thus overrated.

Hilarious...you actually tried to make this a credible argument as to who is better? Good grief...
 

scottiepippen1994

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97Bulls

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97Bulls has pretty much proven how little he knows he making the basketball Special person claim that

Bulls Rodman > Early Pistons Wallace on defense

Hey.... I feel wallace is overrated. Please tell me who he defended in the mid 00s. And I'm talking centers. Not PFs. Not duncan, not garnett etc, I'm referring to the centers.

If he did what he did in a typical era of centers, id tend to agree.
 

97Bulls

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What the **** makes you think I don't know Wade and Kobe are SGs? Really, what makes you think I don't know that. Are you serious?

They are also perimeter players, which you so often claim Pip was so great at stopping...He ain't stopping these boys in the league today, and he wouldn't be the best small forward in the league today.

Your point about Westbrook in comparison with Jackson is....typical. Pippen couldn't guard Westbrook because Westbrook is a much more athletic, stronger, faster player than Jackson was. Westbrook is a better player...no point guards were doing what these guys are doing now, with maybe the exception of Penny Hardaway.

Lol I thought we were just talking about SFs. My bad, geeze.

And your not getting my point. Jackson could be just as effective as westbrook cuz he was a true pg. Westbrook to be honest, is a SG trapped in a pgs body. And I do feel pippen could give westbrook or any pg problems for that matter.

This just shows how much you know about basketball. Not a damn thing
 

97Bulls

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lol the thing about defense is its harder to support with cold hard facts other than defensive rating,blocks,etc. and those are all flawed..simply showing how a player did against a great big man in,like one, series means jackshit

Ben Wallace has 64.6 DWS in his career compared to Rodman's 52.9. Rodman played 8 more career games than Wallace, and still has 11.7 less DWS than Wallace!(of course that was in 09, i found this on another site and i found it interesting)

im not going to make the argument that ben wallace was better than rodman if we look at their primes, because i think rodman was slightly better(versatile,unbelievable rebounder).

but i think that rodman,by the time he got to chicago, was certainly a good defender, but not on the level that he used to be

you have to remember rodman was 34 when he joined the bulls, and not to mention in the late 90s some of the great big men of the era were aging(not going to make the argument that they still did not dominate in some regard..but i think by the late 90s we started seeing a transition)

rodman was more versatile and arguably the better rebounder

wallace was a much better blocker and had more length inside...you have to also remember that its not always about individual matchups..but units vs. units..for example post vs post...or even in the sense of guards who make a living getting to the basket...

these slashing guards are partly the assignment of the corresponding defender, but also the assignment of the post defender who tries to make sure that the guard does not finish the play..

if i'm looking at wallace in his prime in detroit vs. rodman in chicago...i'll take wallace..although both arent bad options defensively

wallace did play against some good big men in his time(mourning,shaq,duncan,garnett)
and you cant definitively say "oh well he didnt defend him because he's a center"...you have to consider, again, its not always about individual matchups...

i think its also hard to say that if rodman were the same age that he was when he joined the bulls and played in the 2000s he would have won as many DPOYs as wallace..maybe so maybe not...on the flip side...hard to say if ben wallace would have won any DPOYs from 95-98..although the 3 DPOYs in that time were Payton,Mutombo, and Mutombo again
I save you for last cuz you actually are good at stating an opposing view.

First of all code, I don't go by age. I look at results. Whenever someone plays the age card, I just refer to nolan ryan. The man was 40 years old and still throwing a 98 mile an hour fastball. Now obviously age is a factor. And at some point we all deteriorate, but there is an exception to every rule. Guys like rodman and jordan are the exceptions.

But I do agree that defense is just too hard to measure. That's why I say the best way is to compare the competition they went up against. You put rodman even at 35 years old in the 00s and I guarantee he's grabbing 20 rbds per.

And its not just the players that won dpoy awards in the 90s, what about the players that they were competing against? Are you really gonna tell me the bigs wallace went up against were on par with the bigs rodman battled on a nightly basis?
 

CODE_BLUE56

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I save you for last cuz you actually are good at stating an opposing view.

First of all code, I don't go by age. I look at results. Whenever someone plays the age card, I just refer to nolan ryan. The man was 40 years old and still throwing a 98 mile an hour fastball. Now obviously age is a factor. And at some point we all deteriorate, but there is an exception to every rule. Guys like rodman and jordan are the exceptions.

But I do agree that defense is just too hard to measure. That's why I say the best way is to compare the competition they went up against. You put rodman even at 35 years old in the 00s and I guarantee he's grabbing 20 rbds per.

And its not just the players that won dpoy awards in the 90s, what about the players that they were competing against? Are you really gonna tell me the bigs wallace went up against were on par with the bigs rodman battled on a nightly basis?

20 rebounds per game? when's the last time someone averaged 20 RPG?

i just dont see it

look, im not going to argue who had better competition in the post...i think rodman probably did(although again you have to consider some of the big men were deteriorating along with rodman at that point)

but i dont think that wallace was necessarily dealing with crap...

i listed the DPOYs from those years to show the competition that Rodman had for DPOY...Mutombo and Payton? i guess certainly not bad competition.. wallace had to deal with artest, bowen,garnett,duncan,christie(who were all great defenders)..so i think wallace deservedly got those DPOYs

would things have different if they swap places.. maybe so...but we dont know for sure..

did rodman do well in his 30s...yes but that doesnt mean he didnt lose a step with the bulls..he was still a great defender and rebounder in his own right..but age did have an impact

whether they be skewed or not, ben wallace in his prime put up some gaudy defensive numbers

although in the sense of defense, this whole thing is still very debatable because there are so many aspects of defense that are overlooked or simply cant be translated into something numerical

my stance is this

rodman w/ the bulls<wallace w/ the pistons in his prime

rodman w/ the pistons and partly SA>wallace w/ the pistons in his prime

and i think rodman had a great impact on that 2nd 3 peat....although on the other side, i think you have to credit a bit of his success with the team(in terms of winning) on jordan and pippen
 

houheffna

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You put rodman even at 35 years old in the 00s and I guarantee he's grabbing 20 rbds per.

And this is the type of basketball knowledge you dispense...based on what? Playing pick up basketball? So, he grabs 20 rebs a game over guys like Garnett and Duncan? Shaq and Howard? Hell, over Ben Wallace? I don't think so...at 35? Lol...gotta be kidding me...
 

97Bulls

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20 rebounds per game? when's the last time someone averaged 20 RPG?

i just dont see it

look, im not going to argue who had better competition in the post...i think rodman probably did(although again you have to consider some of the big men were deteriorating along with rodman at that point)

but i dont think that wallace was necessarily dealing with crap...

i listed the DPOYs from those years to show the competition that Rodman had for DPOY...Mutombo and Payton? i guess certainly not bad competition.. wallace had to deal with artest, bowen,garnett,duncan,christie(who were all great defenders)..so i think wallace deservedly got those DPOYs

would things have different if they swap places.. maybe so...but we dont know for sure..

did rodman do well in his 30s...yes but that doesnt mean he didnt lose a step with the bulls..he was still a great defender and rebounder in his own right..but age did have an impact

whether they be skewed or not, ben wallace in his prime put up some gaudy defensive numbers

although in the sense of defense, this whole thing is still very debatable because there are so many aspects of defense that are overlooked or simply cant be translated into something numerical

my stance is this

rodman w/ the bulls<wallace w/ the pistons in his prime

rodman w/ the pistons and partly SA>wallace w/ the pistons in his prime

and i think rodman had a great impact on that 2nd 3 peat....although on the other side, i think you have to credit a bit of his success with the team(in terms of winning) on jordan and pippen
My stance is this. Here are the centers for all the teams in 03. I picked 03 cuz it was wallaces best statistical year.

Nets Jason Collins. Garbarge
Sixers Todd McCoullough. Garbage
Celtics Tony Battie decent
Magic Shawn Kemp. A fat tub of garbage
Wizards Brendan Haywood. Garbage
Knicks Othella Harrington. Garbage
Hornets Jamal Magloire decent
Pacers Brad Miller. Very good
Bucks Dan Gadzuric. Garbage
Hawks Theo Ratliff. Old
Bulls Eddie Curry. Decent
Raptors Jalani McCoy. Garbage
Cavs Big Z. A top 5 center. Would be middle of the pack in the 90s
Spurs David Robinson. Old
Mavs Raef Lafrenz decent
Wolves Rasho Nesterovic. Garbage
Jazz Greg Ostertag. Garbage
Rockets Yao Ming. Great
Grizzlies Lorenzen Wright. Garbage
Nuggets Mark Blount. Garbage
Kings Vlade Divac. Good
Lakers Shaq
Suns Amare Stoudemire
Trailblazers Dale Davis decent but old
Sonics Pedrag dronnaj garbage
Warriors Eric Dampier. Better known as "Erica"
Clippers Michael olowakandi. Arguably the biggest bust along witth kwame brown

This is why I say wallace is oveerrated. There only about 5 quality to great centers in this list. And some of the ones that would be considered decent, are decent by default
 

97Bulls

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And this is the type of basketball knowledge you dispense...based on what? Playing pick up basketball? So, he grabs 20 rebs a game over guys like Garnett and Duncan? Shaq and Howard? Hell, over Ben Wallace? I don't think so...at 35? Lol...gotta be kidding me...

But the problem with your logic is he's not playing against garnett, duncan and shaq on a nightly basis. He would be playing the jason collins and rasho nesterovics types more often than not. You know, garbage.

And I just checked, rodman rebounding numbers vs those three guys you mentioned were a follows


17 rbds vs shaq
16 rbds vs garnett
19 rbds vs duncan

And a few of those garnett game were when he played limite minutes with dallas and the lakers. Now what would he do against the scrubs of the 00s?
 

Mr.247

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But the problem with your logic is he's not playing against garnett, duncan and shaq on a nightly basis. He would be playing the jason collins and rasho nesterovics types more often than not. You know, garbage.

And I just checked, rodman rebounding numbers vs those three guys you mentioned were a follows


17 rbds vs shaq
16 rbds vs garnett
19 rbds vs duncan

And a few of those garnett game were when he played limite minutes with dallas and the lakers. Now what would he do against the scrubs of the 00s?

THANK YOU!

WELL SAID.

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RamiTheBullsFan

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But the problem with your logic is he's not playing against garnett, duncan and shaq on a nightly basis. He would be playing the jason collins and rasho nesterovics types more often than not. You know, garbage.

And I just checked, rodman rebounding numbers vs those three guys you mentioned were a follows


17 rbds vs shaq
16 rbds vs garnett
19 rbds vs duncan

And a few of those garnett game were when he played limite minutes with dallas and the lakers. Now what would he do against the scrubs of the 00s?

Once again. We are comparing Rodman's defense with Wallace's defense. It isn't even all that close.

Nobody is questioning Rodman's rebounding. Wallace could defend the PF better than Rodman could. He could defend the C position a whole lot better than Rodman could.

To say that Rodman was going up against scorers on a nightly basis is not true. Hell, Garnett and Duncan didn't come along until well after Rodman's career was almost over.

Rodman as an offensive player is way better than Ben Wallace; Rebounder- better; defensive player- better at defending PG-SG-SF (largely in-part to the hand-checking rule). And Wallace defended the low-post because he was a dominant shot-blocker. And defended the rim much better at the C position.

People are conveniently ignoring that without hand-checking, Rodman would have been pretty much useless on defense after the year 1995.
 

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