PIPPEN Vs. RODMAN Who was the BEST defender in Bulls History?

[97Bulls]

4 DPOY > 2 DPOY
4x All-Star>2x All-Star
5x NBA All-Teamer (3x 2nd team, 2x 3rd team)> 2x NBA All-Teamer (2x 3rd Team)

I'm just saying lol

Also last little # i like is:
Ben Wallace lifetime DRTG:96>Rodman's 100 DRTG to go along w/

Rodman's Impressive Def. Win Shares # of 54.5 < Wallace's 69 Def. Win Shares

Meaning Wallace was better defender.

Again just saying

Wallaces dpoy awards are completely overrated. Tell me what other great defenders were in the leage at the time? Specifically centers.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

Why Pippen is not better?
Wallace defended rim only and paint.

but he did it unbelievably well..especially for his height

not to mention, post defenders are almost a necessity...having a great one is a serious commodity..you lock down any sort of big man post game....as well as making guards take jump shots..it throws the whole opposition out of rhythm..unless you can make a living with jump shots

Pippen could defend 4 or 5 positions.

surely versatility should be considered in determining a player's defensive worth, but the question is could pippen defend those positions as well as wallace could defend his?

Pippen was more productive then Ben on offensive end.

this is about defensive prowess...has nothing to do with offensive production

Ben Wallace could guard 2 positions, great defender in his Detroit days, but teammates make him better also.... before 2003 and 2004 season his defense didn't help his team to win at all

lol you cite ben wallace's teammates made him better

but scottie pippen had michael freaking jordan and dennis rodman as a teammate...you dont think that made him better on the defensive end

and defense and winning dont necessarily correlate..it depends on the circumstances around the player more...or the fact that ben wallace didnt have an offensive game...

there's also a reason ben wallace won a bunch of DPOYs and scottie won none(partly because wing guys dont get too many DPOYs but i've established why post defense is arguably more important)...

 

[97Bulls]

You are saying this about rodman based on what? The fact that you are a bulls fan? watching recorded games and highlights, and rerun on ESPN Classic? Rodman attempted to "Defend" Shaq.

In reality, it was the "hack a shaq" whether you wanna admit it or not. Wallace also had to guard a Yao Ming, and Timmy D, and any 3-5 that was the best on the court during his prime.

Again don't get me wrong, Rodman is a top-15 to bottom top 10 defender of all-time, but you are so far gone in homerism right now of how good he was defensively in comparison to other greats, it's nauseating.

I think your typing stuff just to be typing.
Shaqs numbers vs wallace 04 nba finals

34/11 81%
29/7 50%
14/8 50% (in a blowout he only played 30 minutes)
36/20 76%
20/8 54%

Also, mind you, kobe was shotjacking, those munbers would've been much higher had kobe played team ball instead of hero ball

Shaq vs wallace 07 ecf first round in limited minutes and 34 years old

19/6 64%
17/8 43%
23/13 59%
16/7 57%

Shaq vs rodman 96 ecf

27/6 62%
36/16 73%
17/12 42%
28/9 85%

As far as hack a shaq? Nonsense

96 shaqs fts vs the bulls
7,8,9,9

04 vs the pistons
12,14,2,11,16

Shaq on avg went to the line much more vs wallace and the pistons. Maybe wallace implemented the hack a shaq.

And wallace never played players other than the center and power forward. You don't remember tayshaun prince? He was the pistons best wing defender.

Also, understand neither defended shaq solely, longley did spend more time on shaq than rodman, and rasheed wallace helped out a lot on shaq in 04. And if ming and duncan are the only great players you can use to to support your argument, then you have none.

Rodman played against better quality players in a week than wallace did in a year. Hell eric dampier was an allstar in the 00s.

 

[97Bulls]

I'm also positive pippen would've won at least two dpoy awards had he played in the 00s with no great centers to have to compete with.

 

[Mr.247]

I think your typing stuff just to be typing.
Shaqs numbers vs wallace 04 nba finals

34/11 81%
29/7 50%
14/8 50% (in a blowout he only played 30 minutes)
36/20 76%
20/8 54%

Also, mind you, kobe was shotjacking, those munbers would've been much higher had kobe played team ball instead of hero ball

Shaq vs wallace 07 ecf first round in limited minutes and 34 years old

19/6 64%
17/8 43%
23/13 59%
16/7 57%

Shaq vs rodman 96 ecf

27/6 62%
36/16 73%
17/12 42%
28/9 85%

As far as hack a shaq? Nonsense

96 shaqs fts vs the bulls
7,8,9,9

04 vs the pistons
12,14,2,11,16

Shaq on avg went to the line much more vs wallace and the pistons. Maybe wallace implemented the hack a shaq.

And wallace never played players other than the center and power forward. You don't remember tayshaun prince? He was the pistons best wing defender.

Also, understand neither defended shaq solely, longley did spend more time on shaq than rodman, and rasheed wallace helped out a lot on shaq in 04. And if ming and duncan are the only great players you can use to to support your argument, then you have none.

Rodman played against better quality players in a week than wallace did in a year. Hell eric dampier was an allstar in the 00s.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whytAReStUQ&feature=related]Slow Clap - YouTube[/ame]

That was Beautiful!

Point Proven.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

I'm also positive pippen would've won at least two dpoy awards had he played in the 00s with no great centers to have to compete with.

alonzo mourning
tim duncan(not necessarily center but still)
ron artest(again not a center)
marcus camby


just a couple..plus i would like to know some more specifics of the hypothetical

im not denying pippen was a great defender

im not denying there were some slighly better defenders in the post in the 90s

but wallace was a better defender imo

thing is,pippen is just at a disadvantage in the fact that he's not really a post defender(he has the versatility to defend in the post, but he is not on wallace's level) and,thing is, post defense is arguably more important

i think pippen is a little overrated in on the ball defense...frankly i think jordan and payton were better in that regard..but it doesnt mean i dont think pippen was one of the best perimeter defenders of his era..because he certainly was

 

[97Bulls]

alonzo mourning
tim duncan(not necessarily center but still)
ron artest(again not a center)
marcus camby


just a couple..plus i would like to know some more specifics of the hypothetical

im not denying pippen was a great defender

im not denying there were some slighly better defenders in the post in the 90s

but wallace was a better defender imo

thing is,pippen is just at a disadvantage in the fact that he's not really a post defender(he has the versatility to defend in the post, but he is not on wallace's level) and,thing is, post defense is arguably more important

i think pippen is a little overrated in on the ball defense...frankly i think jordan and payton were better in that regard..but it doesnt mean i dont think pippen was one of the best perimeter defenders of his era..because he certainly was

Tthe defenders in the 90s weren't slightly better, they were flatout better. Marcus camby, wallace an artest were overrated defensively. The only way they would've got close to the dpoy award in the 90s would've been either to pay to go see it behind a glass window 3ft thick at the basketball hall of fame or pull up a picture on the internet. Olajuwan, robinson, mutombo, rodman, mourning, jordan, payton, ewing, pippen? Come on.

It shows how whack the centers are now, its been dwight howard will win it until he doesn't want it anymore.

 

[Glide2keva]

I think your typing stuff just to be typing.
Shaqs numbers vs wallace 04 nba finals

34/11 81%
29/7 50%
14/8 50% (in a blowout he only played 30 minutes)
36/20 76%
20/8 54%

Also, mind you, kobe was shotjacking, those munbers would've been much higher had kobe played team ball instead of hero ball

Shaq vs wallace 07 ecf first round in limited minutes and 34 years old

19/6 64%
17/8 43%
23/13 59%
16/7 57%

Shaq vs rodman 96 ecf

27/6 62%
36/16 73%
17/12 42%
28/9 85%

As far as hack a shaq? Nonsense

96 shaqs fts vs the bulls
7,8,9,9

04 vs the pistons
12,14,2,11,16

Shaq on avg went to the line much more vs wallace and the pistons. Maybe wallace implemented the hack a shaq.

And wallace never played players other than the center and power forward. You don't remember tayshaun prince? He was the pistons best wing defender.

Also, understand neither defended shaq solely, longley did spend more time on shaq than rodman, and rasheed wallace helped out a lot on shaq in 04. And if ming and duncan are the only great players you can use to to support your argument, then you have none.

Rodman played against better quality players in a week than wallace did in a year. Hell eric dampier was an allstar in the 00s.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[CubbyBear2290]

Tthe defenders in the 90s weren't slightly better, they were flatout better. Marcus camby, wallace an artest were overrated defensively. The only way they would've got close to the dpoy award in the 90s would've been either to pay to go see it behind a glass window 3ft thick at the basketball hall of fame or pull up a picture on the internet. Olajuwan, robinson, mutombo, rodman, mourning, jordan, payton, ewing, pippen? Come on.

It shows how whack the centers are now, its been dwight howard will win it until he doesn't want it anymore.

It also has to do w/ the fact the NBA wants a more offensively oriented game, they took away what made Rodman (who you feel is god or something) and all those defenders lives a whole lot easier when they were able to hand check, body contact, and foul hard w/o it being called a flagrant, etc. Man I love thick headedness (which I am guilty of to lol)

 

[CubbyBear2290]

Wallaces dpoy awards are completely overrated. Tell me what other great defenders were in the leage at the time? Specifically centers.

Tim Duncan and KG are 2 that come to mind as they both did play center at points in their careers, both of whom are defensive greats in their own rights. Just sayn

 

[97Bulls]

It also has to do w/ the fact the NBA wants a more offensively oriented game, they took away what made Rodman (who you feel is god or something) and all those defenders lives a whole lot easier when they were able to hand check, body contact, and foul hard w/o it being called a flagrant, etc. Man I love thick headedness (which I am guilty of to lol)

Its true the nba changed rules to help scoring. But this still doesn't. Make up the distance the great defensive players of the 90s have on the 00s players

Marcus camby won dpoy. He was considered damn near a bust when he was drafted in 96.

Wallace couldn't even make a friggn team. Ill never forget a teenage kobe dunking on him in 97 during a preseason game. He was cut the next day. And was at best barely hanging on until all the great centers retire and he got back in the league by default.

 

[97Bulls]

Tim Duncan and KG are 2 that come to mind as they both did play center at points in their careers, both of whom are defensive greats in their own rights. Just sayn

True. Its a travesty that duncan never won a dpoy award. He probably deserved one more than pippen.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Homerism is strong is this forum.

People who think Rodman>Wallace on defense don't know basketball.

People who think the 2000's was a lousy era and dismiss it at that don't know basketball.

Erick Dampier was never a friggin' All-star... Horace Grant, Charles Oakley, John Starks, and B.J. Armstrong were All-stars in the 90's. That sounds pretty weak to me.

 

[97Bulls]

Homerism is strong is this forum.

People who think Rodman>Wallace on defense don't know basketball.

People who think the 2000's was a lousy era and dismiss it at that don't know basketball.

Erick Dampier was never a friggin' All-star... Horace Grant, Charles Oakley, John Starks, and B.J. Armstrong were All-stars in the 90's. That sounds pretty weak to me.

My bad, it was jamal maglore. Both sucked, but were one of the better centers in the league

The 00s wasn't. A lousy era by any means. The centers were.

 

[CubbyBear2290]

True. Its a travesty that duncan never won a dpoy award. He probably deserved one more than pippen.

Much more than pippen IMHO.....mainly because he is arguably the greatest Defensive PF to ever play the game......but that again is just my opinion.....

 

[scottiepippen1994]

Much more than pippen IMHO.....mainly because he is arguably the greatest Defensive PF to ever play the game......but that again is just my opinion.....

Tim Duncin was a better defender than Ben Wallace too. All of San Antonios championships are because of the defense of Tim and the others on the team

 

[Deng Defense Force]

Homerism is strong is this forum.

People who think Rodman>Wallace on defense don't know basketball.

People who think the 2000's was a lousy era and dismiss it at that don't know basketball.
Erick Dampier was never a friggin' All-star... Horace Grant, Charles Oakley, John Starks, and B.J. Armstrong were All-stars in the 90's. That sounds pretty weak to me.

Kings, Blazers, Spurs, and Lakers are the only 2000's teams that would even have a chance of making the finals in the 90's.

I also doubt there is any 2000's East teams that would make the finals in the 90's even if you remove the Championship Bulls teams.

 

[Mr.247]

Homerism is strong is this forum.

People who think Rodman>Wallace on defense don't know basketball.

People who think the 2000's was a lousy era and dismiss it at that don't know basketball.

Erick Dampier was never a friggin' All-star... Horace Grant, Charles Oakley, John Starks, and B.J. Armstrong were All-stars in the 90's. That sounds pretty weak to me.

LOL!

People who are Mentally Challenged think they are Sane.

You are 100% wrong. But I'm not surpised, there is always 2 of you in every board. Homerism is your last resort arguement. (I've seen this before on ESPN)

Anyone who Actually FOR REAL knows basketball, will say to YOU that you are completely OUT OF YOUR MIND if you think Ben Wallace was better than Rodman. Seriously.

You have ZERO CLUE! Sniffin' on that CRAZY GLUE!

The talent in the 2000's will get BLOWN OUT THE STADIUM by the talent from the 90's without question.

No offense but ...
I question YOUR age my friend.
Seriously....

What makes it even more FUNNY (cus I really am Laughing) is that the post was Originally about Rodman and PIPPEN! LOL!

Picking between the two isn't really a right or wrong answer UNTILL...you start saying CRAZY things like Rodman was that good of a defender... Or that Ben Wallace was a better Defender.

I'm not bias of the players from the 90s era, I keep it 100 percent real. I've seen BOTH eras of NBA Basketball and I'm not that old... I'm in my mid to late 20s. I witnessed the greatness of both time periods and all the players and I can honestly tell you that if the 2000's Players faced off against the players of the 90s...the 2000 players would get MURDERIZED!!!!

(This is exactly why I asked your age... I'm at the perfect age where as I'm not too old or young to just automatically roll with one side or the other. I can be legitimately honest without bias because of that.)

Rodman (homerism or not) was a waaaaaaay better defender than Wallace and was far more consistent in every single game. Wallace had a tendency of taking breaks every once in a while. He virtually Stopped playing on his top level at age 32. Meanwhile Rodman at 36 was STILL a Defensive Terror. You can see the visual difference between the two players throughout their whole careers let alone the time spent as a bull ( Rings or no Rings)

Now I was just talking about Rodman and Wallace as a Bull. Rodman's Career over all is Glorious in comparison to Wallace without question.

It really is Laughable that you actually BELIEVE what you are saying.

NO WAY can Wallace touch Rodman. If anything Wallace is a Watered Down version of Rodman inspiring to Be Like RODMAN.

 

[houheffna]

Statistical integrity people...

Its hilarious how people skip over stats when it doesn't suit them...for example....

Defensive rating...will someone PLEASE go look at the D Ratings Ben Wallace put up?

Rodman wasn't WAY better, nor vice versa...they were both great defenders. Given my druthers, I would take Wallace because he wasn't as toxic as Rodman was. Wallace was not overrated. He did one thing exceptionally well. How many guys make all league and all defensive teams, and can't play offense at all???

Talking about centers does Wallace a disservice. Wallace's job was to guard the basket...he did an exceptional job. Rodman was an alltime great defender...as a Piston. He was sidetracked a bit with the Spurs and floundered defensively while with the Bulls. But at his best, he could guard a lot of players.

And no, Pippen doesn't win 2 DPOY in the last decade if he was in his prime. I would dare say the perimeter players of today...Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Carmelo...would be tougher to guard than the players Pippen guarded routinely in his prime. And Pippen couldn't do to Chris Paul or Westbrook what he did to Mark Jackson...totally different animal there.
Both Pippen and Rodman would have been great...but I am not handing either one of them awards and assuming they dominate the last 10 years...I don't see it.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Anyone who Actually FOR REAL knows basketball, will say to YOU that you are completely OUT OF YOUR MIND if you think Ben Wallace was better than Rodman. Seriously.

Ben Wallace wasn't better than Rodman when you include the rebounding and offense. But defensively, it is not even all that close. Rodman could defend more positions but was nowhere near the shot-blocker Wallace was. If Ben played in the 90's, he would have been able to body up defenders and stay in the paint all day. That is a scary thought. Rodman would have had the hard time defending without hand-checking because he depended on that.

The talent in the 2000's will get BLOWN OUT THE STADIUM by the talent from the 90's without question.

While I do believe that the 90's featured the best team basketball, the talent level is not all that different at all from an individual stand point.

What makes it even more FUNNY (cus I really am Laughing) is that the post was Originally about Rodman and PIPPEN! LOL!

Already addressed that.

Picking between the two isn't really a right or wrong answer UNTILL...you start saying CRAZY things like Rodman was that good of a defender... Or that Ben Wallace was a better Defender.

Wallace was the better defensive player. He did more than Rodman with more restrictions set upon him.

I can honestly tell you that if the 2000's Players faced off against the players of the 90s...the 2000 players would get MURDERIZED!!!![/U]

Can't be quantified.

Rodman (homerism or not) was a waaaaaaay better defender than Wallace and was far more consistent in every single game. Wallace had a tendency of taking breaks every once in a while. He virtually Stopped playing on his top level at age 32. Meanwhile Rodman at 36 was STILL a Defensive Terror. You can see the visual difference between the two players throughout their whole careers let alone the time spent as a bull ( Rings or no Rings)

Those "breaks" you are talking about was Ben Wallace carrying that Piston team on the boards. That Detroit team had Rasheed Wallace who would often defend the paint and lane while Ben looked to get rebounds.

Now I was just talking about Rodman and Wallace as a Bull. Rodman's Career over all is Glorious in comparison to Wallace without question.

I assume you're referring to championships. Rodman did have a way of getting under the opponent's skin but never had the shot-blocking capability of Wallace or anywhere close. And that is not all Wallace did. He went after loose balls and had quick hands and got steals. He could also step outside and guard the perimeter a bit too. Rodman could defend the 1-2-3 better than Ben Wallace but couldn't defend the 4 or especially the 5 as well. Especially when you factor in hand-checking.

NO WAY can Wallace touch Rodman. If anything Wallace is a Watered Down version of Rodman inspiring to Be Like RODMAN.

If Rodman could defend the rim close to as well as Wallace then it would be a better debate. But if Rodman played deep into the 2000's, he would not have been nearly as effective of a player because of the rule changes. Wallace would have stood better in the 1990's (defensively) than Rodman would have stood in the 2000's because of that alone.