PIPPEN Vs. RODMAN Who was the BEST defender in Bulls History?

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I think your typing stuff just to be typing.
Shaqs numbers vs wallace 04 nba finals

34/11 81%
29/7 50%
14/8 50% (in a blowout he only played 30 minutes)
36/20 76%
20/8 54%

Also, mind you, kobe was shotjacking, those munbers would've been much higher had kobe played team ball instead of hero ball

lol at the use of pts + rebs again to try to oversimplify. You obviously didn't watch/don't remember that series. Shaq was taking a HUGE number of shots and played nearly EVERY minute in 4 games. That series was the Shaq/Kobe show vs. DET. Shaq was gassed that series because he was carrying an injured Malone and Slava Medvedenko. He was doing all he could.

You seem to value winning a lot, so guess who won that series.

Shaq vs wallace 07 ecf first round in limited minutes and 34 years old

19/6 64%
17/8 43%
23/13 59%
16/7 57%

First off, we aren't talking about Ben is his Bulls' days.

But anyway... Shaq did not have a very good series at all. He and Wallace were both injured. So was Wade.

The Bulls won that series anyway.

Shaq vs rodman 96 ecf

You mean Shaq vs. the entire Bulls' front-line.

27/6 62%
36/16 73%
17/12 42%
28/9 85%

Yeah. Those are pretty big numbers. That point of your argument is lost.

As far as hack a shaq? Nonsense
96 shaqs fts vs the bulls
7,8,9,9

04 vs the pistons
12,14,2,11,16
Shaq on avg went to the line much more vs wallace and the pistons. Maybe wallace implemented the hack a shaq.

Um... you do realize that taking hand-checking away had a LOT to do with that, don't you...??

And wallace never played players other than the center and power forward. You don't remember tayshaun prince? He was the pistons best wing defender.

Remember Joe Dumars? Jordan, Pippen, Harper? Those were some of RODMAN'S wing defenders over the course of his career.

Wallace defended the positions that Rodman defended best BETTER than Rodman could.

Also, understand neither defended shaq solely, longley did spend more time on shaq than rodman, and rasheed wallace helped out a lot on shaq in 04. And if ming and duncan are the only great players you can use to to support your argument, then you have none.

There are a lot of great low-post scorers in the 2000 era. The PF position featured the vast majority of them and still does.

Wallace defended Shaq better than Rodman could. And more often as the main defender.

Rodman played against better quality players in a week than wallace did in a year.

Truly false.

Hell eric dampier was an allstar in the 00s.

The East was weak at center the year ***Jamaal Magloire*** made it. And two other players were injured and he was selected because of that.

 

[scottiepippen1994]

I loved Ben Wallace but Rodman was a freak of nature. He had 2 seasons of 18+ rebounds in his prime and he played on thesameteam asDavidRobinson who wasa great rebounder. Rightfully discounting players more than 30 years ago because of overinflated statsduetihigh pace(mainly Wilt),Rodman istheBEST rebounderof all time!! Dwight is a sick rebounder and he can hardly ever eclipse 13 rpg while Rodman had 15+ in 6 seasons and 18.7 as a career high. Also, Dwight is 7 feet and Rodman is 6'6' like Kobe and Jordan and an inch shorter than Pippen..

Defensively, Rodman could guard all positions. He guarded Bird, Magic, MJ, Malone... I recently watched a game from 1998 Finals where Rodman would push Karl Malone completely out of the post to the 3 pt line. Tells you how strong this guy was too and way after his prime. Perhaps even more funny from that game, Malone would end up making many jumpers from back there.

 

[scottiepippen1994]

dennis rodman won two defensive player of theyear awardsin a tougher big man era. he went up against the likes of hakeem, ewing, robinson, shaq, mutumbo, mourning, barkley, malone, parish, mchale, moses malone, brad daugherty, oakley, webber, jabbar, kemp, coleman, v. baker, k. willis, horace grant... im sure im missing names

big ben went up against abdur rahim, antoine walker, ilgauskas, dampier, brand, nowitzki, k-mart, brad miller, verajao, camby, yao ming, jermaine o'neal, shaq, kaman, garnett, olowakandi, pau gasol, david west, dwight howard, webber, zach randolph, amare, divac, duncan, troy murphy, jamison, bosh, boozer, okur

i even gave big ben the benefit of naming players who are just simply big but nowhere near the threats that Rodman faced. i could name players on divac, ilgauskas,okur, etc. levelfor Rodman as well, but i think the players i named for him, especially the first 10 or so defeats all of big ben's list.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

Statistical integrity people...

Its hilarious how people skip over stats when it doesn't suit them...for example....

Defensive rating...will someone PLEASE go look at the D Ratings Ben Wallace put up?

Rodman wasn't WAY better, nor vice versa...they were both great defenders. Given my druthers, I would take Wallace because he wasn't as toxic as Rodman was. Wallace was not overrated. He did one thing exceptionally well. How many guys make all league and all defensive teams, and can't play offense at all???

Talking about centers does Wallace a disservice. Wallace's job was to guard the basket...he did an exceptional job. Rodman was an alltime great defender...as a Piston. He was sidetracked a bit with the Spurs and floundered defensively while with the Bulls. But at his best, he could guard a lot of players.

And no, Pippen doesn't win 2 DPOY in the last decade if he was in his prime. I would dare say the perimeter players of today...Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Carmelo...would be tougher to guard than the players Pippen guarded routinely in his prime. And Pippen couldn't do to Chris Paul or Westbrook what he did to Mark Jackson...totally different animal there.
Both Pippen and Rodman would have been great...but I am not handing either one of them awards and assuming they dominate the last 10 years...I don't see it.

this is a very good point....while the big men were dominant in the 90s..the wings and guards other than jordan,pippen, and a few others were not...

its hard to say that pippen would have translated 100% smoothly to defending against the great wings that emerged in the 2000s...

 

[CubbyBear2290]

Tim Duncin was a better defender than Ben Wallace too. All of San Antonios championships are because of the defense of Tim and the others on the team

That could very well be true, but you are really just looking to pick fights and arguments right now it seems.......... also please learn to spell an All-Time greats name (ala Duncan not Duncin) Before posting kthnxbai..

 

[scottiepippen1994]

That could very well be true, but you are really just looking to pick fights and arguments right now it seems.......... also please learn to spell an All-Time greats name (ala Duncan not Duncin) Before posting kthnxbai..

I'm not trying to pick a fight at all...I'm just 100% sure of my statements..plus I'm tired of the false information being written on these posts lately...Most of them by people who were wee toddlers in the 90s and really don't know what the hell there talking about....There are people from around the world that read this and may be sent off in the wrong direction...My purpose is to correct the frauds..

I apologise for the mispelling of Duncan.....whoooopsy......I type very fast...

Have a nice day and go Bulls.

 

[97Bulls]

Statistical integrity people...

Its hilarious how people skip over stats when it doesn't suit them...for example....

Defensive rating...will someone PLEASE go look at the D Ratings Ben Wallace put up?

Rodman wasn't WAY better, nor vice versa...they were both great defenders. Given my druthers, I would take Wallace because he wasn't as toxic as Rodman was. Wallace was not overrated. He did one thing exceptionally well. How many guys make all league and all defensive teams, and can't play offense at all???

Talking about centers does Wallace a disservice. Wallace's job was to guard the basket...he did an exceptional job. Rodman was an alltime great defender...as a Piston. He was sidetracked a bit with the Spurs and floundered defensively while with the Bulls. But at his best, he could guard a lot of players.

And no, Pippen doesn't win 2 DPOY in the last decade if he was in his prime. I would dare say the perimeter players of today...Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Carmelo...would be tougher to guard than the players Pippen guarded routinely in his prime. And Pippen couldn't do to Chris Paul or Westbrook what he did to Mark Jackson...totally different animal there.
Both Pippen and Rodman would have been great...but I am not handing either one of them awards and assuming they dominate the last 10 years...I don't see it.

I thought you didn't want to include defensive ratings heff. Besides, defensive ratings are kind of skewed in this aspect because the centers wallace faced were garbage.

Kobe and wade are SGs.

And while mark jackson wasn't nearly the caliber of scorer that paul and westbrook were, he's definately as good a point guard as paul when it comes to running an offense, and much better than westbrook.

And off course you don't see pippen and rodman dominating. Look at your track record. When it comes to pippen, your about as unreasonable as they come. Rodman too.

 

[inactiveuser1]

Pippin is my vote :tongue:

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

I thought you didn't want to include defensive ratings heff. Besides, defensive ratings are kind of skewed in this aspect because the centers wallace faced were garbage.

Kobe and wade are SGs.

And while mark jackson wasn't nearly the caliber of scorer that paul and westbrook were, he's definately as good a point guard as paul when it comes to running an offense, and much better than westbrook.

And off course you don't see pippen and rodman dominating. Look at your track record. When it comes to pippen, your about as unreasonable as they come. Rodman too.

im confused wouldnt pippen guard the best player on the team in that situation(or is jordan included in this hypothetical)?

 

[nwfisch]

Lock thread Naow

 

[97Bulls]

Nno he didn't. Statisticaly, shaq had a better series ve

lol at the use of pts + rebs again to try to oversimplify. You obviously didn't watch/don't remember that series. Shaq was taking a HUGE number of shots and played nearly EVERY minute in 4 games. That series was the Shaq/Kobe show vs. DET. Shaq was gassed that series because he was carrying an injured Malone and Slava Medvedenko. He was doing all he could.
Every series the shaq and kobe lakers played in were dominated by shaq and kobe. There really wasn't much depth past the two.
You seem to value winning a lot, so guess who won that series.



First off, we aren't talking about Ben is his Bulls' days.
Those were his numbers vs ben with the bulls

But anyway... Shaq did not have a very good series at all. He and Wallace were both injured. So was Wade.
These are excuses

The Bulls won that series anyway.



You mean Shaq vs. the entire Bulls' front-line.
I acknowledged this already. Wallace didn't go 1 on 1 vs shaq either.


Yeah. Those are pretty big numbers. That point of your argument is lost.
You said wallace shut shaq down. I just pointed the truth, wallace was eaten alive by shaq.


Um... you do realize that taking hand-checking away had a LOT to do with that, don't you...??
The hand checking rule involved perimeter players, not post players

Remember Joe Dumars? Jordan, Pippen, Harper? Those were some of RODMAN'S wing defenders over the course of his career.
So what's the point? The other poster claimed wallace defended the other teams best scoere 1-5. This couldn't be further from the truth.

Wallace defended the positions that Rodman defended best BETTER than Rodman could.
Say what? Come on


There are a lot of great low-post scorers in the 2000 era. The PF position featured the vast majority of them and still does.
Ben wallace didn't defend any of them. He defended the centers. Rasheed wallace defended the PFs

Wallace defended Shaq better than Rodman could. And more often as the main defender.
I disagree with the first part. The stats show different. But I do agree with the latter


Truly false.



The East was weak at center the year ***Jamaal Magloire*** made it. And two other players were injured and he was selected because of that.

The east was weak at center in the 00s. Period

 

[scottiepippen1994]

im confused wouldnt pippen guard the best player on the team in that situation(or is jordan included in this hypothetical)?

You are absolutely correct sir....8 times out of 10, Phil Jackson gave Pippen the toughest defensive assignments...However, Pippen rarely was given the assignment of guarding centers though unless it was for a doubleteam......The best way to put it is that Pippen was a defensive roamer..His great floor vision would allow himself to get involved defensively anywhere it was needed without even needing to be told by Phil....Pippen was that great of a defensive player..A defensive prototype...Like a machine.....He could read his opponants next moves and was able to act on impulse....And he was the best in the whole league at it during his prime..Maybe of all time....Nobody here on this forum can dispute that, and if they try, it will just be jibberish....or just arguments just for the purpose of arguing with false claims...Pippen was a more versatile defender than Rodman..Pippen could defend in everyway...Blocks, steals, drawing charges, staying in front of his assignment, was able to run up and down the floor like a greyhound, great defensive rebounder and etc etc and everyway else you can defend.....I think youcan catch my drift..

As a matter of fact, Pippen could probabely teach Thibbs more defense than he already knows...And Thibbs is a defensive mastermind....But Pippen is Yoda when it comes to defense....."Do or do not, there is no try"

 

[Icculus]

Rodzilla was awesome and his D on Shaq and Malone were so key in that second three-peat. However, Pippen was not only the greatest defender in Bull history, but the best wingman defender of all time.

 

[97Bulls]

Rodzilla was awesome and his D on Shaq and Malone were so key in that second three-peat. However, Pippen was not only the greatest defender in Bull history, but the best wingman defender of all time.

Carefull ziggy. Your real close to being accused of homerism.

 

[CubbyBear2290]

Please lock this thread already........The amount of asinine, idiotic homerism is unbearable. I'm done w/ this thread, no one hear is willing to hear viable arguments and #s about someone being better than a bulls legend/childhood hero.

Have a nice one ladies and germs.

 

[scottiepippen1994]

Please lock this thread already........The amount of asinine, idiotic homerism is unbearable. I'm done w/ this thread, no one hear is willing to hear viable arguments and #s about someone being better than a bulls legend/childhood hero.

Have a nice one ladies and germs.

I guess its a trend for people here to whine and cry when opinions differ from there's..
Differances in opinions is supposed to be the point of messageboards...to lay it all on the table...And what is this bullshit "lock this thread" crap???
If threads keep getting locked, then this board will be dead..
I like the fact that there is some action during a lockout..
I guess you would rather post where everyones ideas are the same....That would sure be boring as ****..My opinions are my feelings and they will remain that way.....if you don't like it, get a time machine and move to 1930s Gernamy....You seem like you would like it there.................Or go sign up for espn messageboards where everyone tattle tails on each other...seems right up your alley.....that place is completely dead just because of that philosophy alone...


P.S Pippen is probably the best defensive wingman of his time...

 

[CubbyBear2290]

I guess its a trend for people here to whine and cry when opinions differ from there's..
Differances in opinions is supposed to be the point of messageboards...to lay it all on the table...And what is this bullshit "lock this thread" crap???
If threads keep getting locked, then this board will be dead..
I like the fact that there is some action during a lockout..
I guess you would rather post where everyones ideas are the same....That would sure be boring as ****..My opinions are my feelings and they will remain that way.....if you don't like it, get a time machine and move to 1930s Gernamy....You seem like you would like it there.................Or go sign up for espn messageboards where everyone tattle tails on each other...seems right up your alley.....that place is completely dead just because of that philosophy alone...


P.S Pippen is probably the best defensive wingman of his time...

No that is not what I'm saying at all, what I'm saying is you, along w/ some other won't even acknowledge what the hell is being said, you're just like nope bypass what is put in front of you and just think your opinion is fact, instead of saying good point and then giving counter point. But excuse me for thinking that is how a debate worked. o well.

 

[scottiepippen1994]

No that is not what I'm saying at all, what I'm saying is you, along w/ some other won't even acknowledge what the hell is being said, you're just like nope bypass what is put in front of you and just think your opinion is fact, instead of saying good point and then giving counter point. But excuse me for thinking that is how a debate worked. o well.

Good point.
The problem is, that's exactly how I feel when I make a statement and my haters on the forum seem to shoot it down without even acknowleging my true statements...
Anyway, I do rrespect others oppinions including yours...I'm sorry if you misunderstand me and I have no beefs with you...



I leave you with a video dedicated to the honorable nwfisch.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt1XjVdyJ6o]2pac - I Ain't Mad At Cha - YouTube[/ame]




GO BULLLs...

 

[97Bulls]

No that is not what I'm saying at all, what I'm saying is you, along w/ some other won't even acknowledge what the hell is being said, you're just like nope bypass what is put in front of you and just think your opinion is fact, instead of saying good point and then giving counter point. But excuse me for thinking that is how a debate worked. o well.

Dude, you called my point "asinine". You twice requested this thread be locked cuz people don't agree with you. That's debating?

You claim wallace is a better defender than rodman cuz of his four dpoy awards. I responded that wallace won those dpoy awards cuz he didn't have much competiition. And in fact played in an era of terrible centers. I then ratteld off like 9 players that played during rodmans career that would've won the dpoy award over wallace.

I even stated the fact that wallace couldn't even stay in the league. He got cut by the washington bullets in 97.

You then said wallace guarded all positions 1-5. That's not true, I. Brought up tayshaun prince.

You then tried to compare wallace and the pistons vs shaq in 04 and rodman and the bulls vs shaq in 96. Shaq played better vs the pistons. Even though he dominated in both series.

So you changed you argument ans stated rodman did a good job on shaq cuz he implemented the "hack a shaq" method. So I promptly posted how shaq went to the line much more vs wallace and the pistons.

I really don't understand what your problem is other than you can't take people disagreeing with you and posting facts.

Like SP94 said. This is a forum. Why your opinion should hold more weight than anyone elses is beyond me

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

so you think rodman was a better defender in a bulls uni than ben wallace was any time in his career?