- Joined:
- Apr 24, 2010
- Posts:
- 29,059
- Liked Posts:
- 7,249
- Joined:
- May 17, 2010
- Posts:
- 13,947
- Liked Posts:
- 3,118
I agree with Phil Rogers, and now I feel dirty.
- Joined:
- Apr 24, 2010
- Posts:
- 29,059
- Liked Posts:
- 7,249
the cubs really need to focus on young pitching. boers the other day was funny...."whos gonna pitch, who ya got"
- Joined:
- Aug 12, 2010
- Posts:
- 8,292
- Liked Posts:
- 3,054
Last edited:
- Joined:
- May 17, 2010
- Posts:
- 13,947
- Liked Posts:
- 3,118
The Cubs have a bunch of guys that might be decent backend of the rotation starters, but that is really all that is within a couple of years of making it. 3 plus years down the road some of these recent draft picks and Maples might be in the picture, but the Cubs are going to have to buy pitching either through trade or free agency.
This is why I would be shocked if Garza and or Dempster were traded for anything but arms.
This is why I would be shocked if Garza and or Dempster were traded for anything but arms.
- Joined:
- May 17, 2010
- Posts:
- 13,947
- Liked Posts:
- 3,118
It used be pitching was the only thing they could develop. They just broke down once they got to the majors. The system has been lacking impact arms for years though which has as much to do with bad scouting as it does with bad development.
2SeamHeat
I Know Nuffing!!!!!
- Joined:
- Aug 15, 2011
- Posts:
- 897
- Liked Posts:
- 188
- Location:
- West Texas
Well, you can say they developed Kerry Wood, Prior, Zambrano, Maddux, Marshall, Russell, etc. However, Wood and Prior became injury cases. Zambo became a head case. Maddux left after a stupid GM decision. And the other two are simply strong LH RPs.
I do expect the team to spend this winter. Not sure how much, but even if they only remain within the bounds of this year's payroll... you can give Castro a solid extension to buy out his arb years and first couple years of FA, then sign 2 high-caliber SPs on 3-5 year deals... and perhaps make a move to acquire a positional player and a little bit of BP help. If they try to push back up to the $150M range that Ricketts was speaking of just a year and a half ago... you can afford to bring in even more than that.
I personally am hoping for a couple of front-line SPs (and it appears there can be as many as 6 on the market this winter)... and I kind of hope they don't trade Garza. However if they do trade Garza, a stud, near MLB ready SP HAS to come back as part of the return package. Dempster has to land at least a middle-rotation ceiling SP, as I think this current stint on the DL weakens his trade value. I do believe that one of these two plus Soriano (and a lot of cash) can be packaged to a team like Baltimore, Cleveland, Toronto for a big return package... but we'll see.
2SeamHeat
I Know Nuffing!!!!!
- Joined:
- Aug 15, 2011
- Posts:
- 897
- Liked Posts:
- 188
- Location:
- West Texas
LHP James Russell... currently filling Marshall's former role in pen... and exceptionally well overall. Sucked donkey balls as a SP, but is quite effective when not facing a lineup more than once.
- Joined:
- May 4, 2010
- Posts:
- 27,077
- Liked Posts:
- 15,145
Meh..I guess? Then again if your "good pitching development" short list of players includes a failed starter turned setup lefty reliever that isn't especially dominant or impressive.........that's not all that great.
2SeamHeat
I Know Nuffing!!!!!
- Joined:
- Aug 15, 2011
- Posts:
- 897
- Liked Posts:
- 188
- Location:
- West Texas
Depends on whether or not you're merely looking for the big bang... or looking at the big picture. Dominant RPs are just as important as dominant SPs. Their development is equally important. Involved in that development is determining whether the guy can endure as a SP, or if he needs to be allowed to "let it loose" in short bursts as a RP.
- Joined:
- May 4, 2010
- Posts:
- 27,077
- Liked Posts:
- 15,145
I'm looking for anything.
1. They absolutely are not. This is baseball Special person.
2. I wouldn't label Russel as "dominant" anyways.
2SeamHeat
I Know Nuffing!!!!!
- Joined:
- Aug 15, 2011
- Posts:
- 897
- Liked Posts:
- 188
- Location:
- West Texas
As far as his effectiveness... seems that only you don't find him "especially impressive". Just about everywhere else that brings Russell up points to him as one of the top LH RPs in the league right now... and has been dominant in that role since Sept. 2010. I mean, there are 159 ERA+ LH RPs all over the place, right? He only ranks 2nd behind Chapman amongst LH RPs with 30+ IP... 6th amongst LH RPs with 20+ IP.
- Joined:
- May 4, 2010
- Posts:
- 27,077
- Liked Posts:
- 15,145
Good for them?
I love the way you ask this question as though the Cubs didn't have an even better LHRP on the roster last season....How special is Russell really if he's basically Marshall light?
I never said that. I said Russel hasn't been impressive....... and "dominant" relievers are guys like Chapman, Kimbrell, Venters(last season), etc. Those guys had/have ERA+ over 200. Russell is having a nice season. But he's not dominant and in 3-4 years I doubt most Cubs fans even remember him/the season he is having. It's arguable if Marshall was even "dominant" and he was pitching better than Russell.
If your point is that Russell is having a good season. I never said otherwise. If your point is that Russel is a "dominant RP", you're off base.
If your overall point is that James Russell should be on the short list of Cubs developmental wins for pitchers..I'd say that's a pretty sad short list.
Last edited:
2SeamHeat
I Know Nuffing!!!!!
- Joined:
- Aug 15, 2011
- Posts:
- 897
- Liked Posts:
- 188
- Location:
- West Texas
Yes... because the MLB is just riddled with successful teams with mediocre to bad BPs. Because every year, there isn't a bigger need for RPs than SPs amongst 'buyers'. But hey... it's just Special person to think that RPs are as important as SPs. I mean, every team is just fine with taking the ball from a dominant SP when he gets tired or in trouble and handing it to a mediocre RP, right? :lol:
Wonder why right now just about every team in the MLB is looking to trade for BP help... but only about 1/3 of the teams are looking for upgrades in their rotation? :thinking:
I understand. You buy the theory that it's easier to develop RPs than SPs. I get it. Yet... there is a far lower percentage of effective RPs out there than SPs. If that theory actually held water... why isn't every single BP out there filled with 5-6 guys with ERAs below 3? Why are those RPs that do hold sub 3 ERAs and under long-term team control considered extremely valuable... if they aren't all that important?
- Joined:
- Jun 7, 2011
- Posts:
- 18,077
- Liked Posts:
- 3,472
- Location:
- Chicago
I think it's okay to be happy with a solid reliever, but if that's one of the rare pitching development successes of the organization, then that is pretty sour. Obviously a starter can't go complete game every time out like at the turn of the century, and obviously you can't just hand the ball off to any Joe off the street and ask them to get 3+ outs. But one should weigh the development of starting pitching well above relievers, especially with how volatile reliever production is from season to season.
- Joined:
- May 4, 2010
- Posts:
- 27,077
- Liked Posts:
- 15,145
You're joking right?
Amazingly middling SP's like Brad Radke were the "hotly contested" names for years. Jesus, look at the Cubs. For as "dominant" as Russell has been have you heard his name in trade talks? Nope. The Cubs in trade talks are the starters(Garza and Dempster).
Every year around the trade deadline the majority of the chatter around pitchers is around starters, not some specialty RP like Russell.
There's a reason guys like Huston Street being drafted high is more rare than going after starting arms like Starsburg.
Because of a few factors.
1. Starting pitchers have a higher value and thus cost more.
2. If you're a good team you likely already have pretty good starting pitching. So getting a BP guy is more a luxury that needs to be filled.
I find it hilarious you even question this seeing as a "dominant" RP like Russell on a team that is obviously selling has been pretty quite as far as rumbles go. If the BP is so important you'd think stories would be blowing up about teams trying to go after such a dominant LHP like Russell.
I can't tell if you are trolling or actually Special person.
Because it's true.
I also buy the theory that 200+ innings of a good pitcher is more important than 50+ innings out of the same caliber pitcher.
That's the way baseball works.
I never said BP guys "aren't all that important". I said they aren't as important as dominant starters. Which they aren't. There's no accepted or viable line of baseball thinking that says otherwise. I'm not saying having a good bullpen isn't important. I'm saying that having good starters is more important.
For the love of God please shut up if you don't understand the sport.
- Joined:
- May 4, 2010
- Posts:
- 27,077
- Liked Posts:
- 15,145
Yeah, it's pretty odd to see someone trumpeting how special, important, and dominant a guy like Russell is when the Cubs pretty easily traded away Sean Marshall last offseason and he did the same role better than Russell. One would have to think that if what Russell is doing is so important or special the Cubs never would have traded Marshall to begin with.
- Joined:
- May 4, 2010
- Posts:
- 27,077
- Liked Posts:
- 15,145
2seam,
For one season, if the costs were the same, each player was at their peak who would you rather "buy" the best SP in the league..or the best reliever?
For one season, if the costs were the same, each player was at their peak who would you rather "buy" the best SP in the league..or the best reliever?
- Joined:
- Jun 7, 2011
- Posts:
- 18,077
- Liked Posts:
- 3,472
- Location:
- Chicago
Marshall was also about to get expensive and there's little to no reason to have an elite set-up man when there will be few leads to set-up the closer with anyway. So that trade was understandable. Russell is still pre-arb and cheap so if he's serviceable ( 
) you keep him around. Nobody's going to give you a ton back for a reliever in a trade anyway. The fact that the Cubs were able to get Travis Wood and two fringe-y but with upside position guys was pretty cool.
Sort of the same with Cashner. Cashner I believe was a closer at TCU and they drafted him first round before converting him to a starter and then yo-yoing him around until his arm broke. I'm actually curious to see how he does in tonight's start against the Astros. If Cashner tanks, then the Cubs win the Rizzo trade by a landslide. If Cashner becomes a solid rotation guy like most of us hoped for last season before his injury, then it's much more even. That speaks to the value of starter over reliever which should be pretty obvious.
It's not saying that relief pitching isn't important, but relievers are the last thing you want to figure out when building a team in my opinion.
) you keep him around. Nobody's going to give you a ton back for a reliever in a trade anyway. The fact that the Cubs were able to get Travis Wood and two fringe-y but with upside position guys was pretty cool.Sort of the same with Cashner. Cashner I believe was a closer at TCU and they drafted him first round before converting him to a starter and then yo-yoing him around until his arm broke. I'm actually curious to see how he does in tonight's start against the Astros. If Cashner tanks, then the Cubs win the Rizzo trade by a landslide. If Cashner becomes a solid rotation guy like most of us hoped for last season before his injury, then it's much more even. That speaks to the value of starter over reliever which should be pretty obvious.
It's not saying that relief pitching isn't important, but relievers are the last thing you want to figure out when building a team in my opinion.
2SeamHeat
I Know Nuffing!!!!!
- Joined:
- Aug 15, 2011
- Posts:
- 897
- Liked Posts:
- 188
- Location:
- West Texas
Last year... Marshall 2.26 ERA, 1.097 WHIP, .234 BAA, 177 ERA+. Russell as a RP 2.57 ERA, 1.318 WHIP, .244 BAA, 172 ERA+. A difference to be sure... but not by extreme leaps and bounds. Also, this was Marshall's career year to date, compared to Russell's 2nd season. Russell's numbers last year as a RP compare favorably to Marshall's previous year... as Russell's numbers this year are favorable to Marshall's this year.
And as stated... #2 LH RP in the majors in terms of ERA+ with over 30 IP. He's also on the rise here, as he was around 140 ERA+ at the beginning of the month. He's putting up similar numbers this season as he did last season as a RP. This suggests his progression should at the very least hold steady, if not improve.
BTW, if Marshall was even "arguably dominant" last year... and Russell has similar numbers to what Marshall did at this point last season minus the WHIP and K totals.... how is it that Russell is not "arguably dominant" as well at least in terms of overall effectiveness? Last year, Marshall had a 2.79 ERA, 1.167 WHIP, .245 BAA, and a 152 ERA+ through the first half of the season.
I agree it's very sad. Not because Russell is on the list... but the fact that the list is so short. It points out how the Cubs have been at or near the pinnacle of futility over the past couple of decades (many more than that in all actuality) in terms of scouting, drafting, signing, and development. Hopefully this has begun to change over the past couple of seasons.