Pitching Help A Long Way Off For The Cubs

[FirstTimer]

Marshall was also about to get expensive and there's little to no reason to have an elite set-up man when there will be few leads to set-up the closer with anyway. So that trade was understandable. Russell is still pre-arb and cheap so if he's serviceable ( ) you keep him around. Nobody's going to give you a ton back for a reliever in a trade anyway. The fact that the Cubs were able to get Travis Wood and two fringe-y but with upside position guys was pretty cool.

One would think if elite guys like Marshall were so valuable they'd get more for them than Travis Wood and two slugs.

Either the Cubs got ripped off or 2seam's idea is bunk.

Sort of the same with Cashner. Cashner I believe was a closer at TCU and they drafted him first round before converting him to a starter

But wait, if BP is as valuable as SP why would you take a reliever and change him into a starter?

Wait. A. Fucking. Second.

It's not saying that relief pitching isn't important, but relievers are the last thing you want to figure out when building a team in my opinion.

Pretty much. Looking at MLB history relievers are much more volatile than starters. One would think that on a team with Carlos Marmol and a city that saw Neal Cotts fall off the face of the earth this would all be rather obvious.

 

[Rice Cube]

It could be arguable that if you were the Yankees and traded in-his-prime Mariano Rivera you might get a huge haul back but I think most GMs realize that he's only going to pitch the 9th inning and isn't worth it despite being the greatest reliever ever.

 

[FirstTimer]

Last year... Marshall 2.26 ERA, 1.097 WHIP, .234 BAA, 177 ERA+. Russell as a RP 2.57 ERA, 1.318 WHIP, .244 BAA, 172 ERA+. A difference to be sure... but not by extreme leaps and bounds. Also, this was Marshall's career year to date, compared to Russell's 2nd season. Russell's numbers last year as a RP compare favorably to Marshall's previous year... as Russell's numbers this year are favorable to Marshall's this year.

And your point is what? That Russell isn't quite Marshall but almost is?

Congrats. You proved my point. Not yours. And for all that greatness from Marshall we got Travis Wood and these guys:

Wow. How important!

And as stated... #2 LH RP in the majors in terms of ERA+ with over 30 IP. He's also on the rise here, as he was around 140 ERA+ at the beginning of the month. He's putting up similar numbers this season as he did last season as a RP. This suggests his progression should at the very least hold steady, if not improve.

Again...I never said Russell wasn't having a good season.

So your point in listing all this is what exactly?

BTW, if Marshall was even "arguably dominant" last year... and Russell has similar numbers to what Marshall did at this point last season minus the WHIP and K totals.... how is it that Russell is not "arguably dominant" as well at least in terms of overall effectiveness? Last year, Marshall had a 2.79 ERA, 1.167 WHIP, .245 BAA, and a 152 ERA+ through the first half of the season.

I don't think Marshall was "dominant" last season. Do you know how to read/understand English?

 

[FirstTimer]

It could be arguable that if you were the Yankees and traded in-his-prime Mariano Rivera you might get a huge haul back but I think most GMs realize that he's only going to pitch the 9th inning and isn't worth it despite being the greatest reliever ever.

For arguments sake like I asked 2seam. We will assume Mo is the greatest RP of all time.

Say you think Roger Clemens is the greatest pitcher ever.

One season, cost the same, who would you rather have? The guy throwing 200+innings or the guy throwing less than 90?

 

[Rice Cube]

It should also be noted that the way Theo and Andrew Friedman racked up so many supp picks before the new CBA was because they traded for overvalued relief pitching and then allowed them to go after arb was declined. I think I trust those guys' judgment in assessing how valuable relief pitchers really are. Again, you'd ideally like relievers to get outs instead of throwing batting practice, but every plate appearance comes with about a 70% chance of recording an out and you can fill that role relatively easily.

Oh, and Anthopoulos in Toronto sort of started doing that too before the new CBA. The AL East was picking like crazy the past couple seasons.

 

[FirstTimer]

It should also be noted that the way Theo and Andrew Friedman racked up so many supp picks before the new CBA was because they traded for overvalued relief pitching and then allowed them to go after arb was declined. I think I trust those guys' judgment in assessing how valuable relief pitchers really are. Again, you'd ideally like relievers to get outs instead of throwing batting practice, but every plate appearance comes with about a 70% chance of recording an out and you can fill that role relatively easily.

Oh, and Anthopoulos in Toronto sort of started doing that too before the new CBA. The AL East was picking like crazy the past couple seasons.

There's also a reason you see teams more inclined to move good relievers to starters rather than the other way around.

 

[Rice Cube]

There's also a reason you see teams more inclined to move good relievers to starters rather than the other way around.

That holds an injury risk, I suppose. The Rangers did that with Feliz and Ogando, as well as CJ Wilson (who netted them a comp pick methinks). I don't recall if Feliz and Ogando are still hurt though.

I guess the Red Sox tried to do that with Bard but he sucked for whatever reason.

I'm not completely sure where I read it but Mariano Rivera was a starter and then the Yankees just decided he would be a reliever, though he only got that first season to show what he had and it was pretty bad.

Ryan Dempster is definitely an example of converting a good reliever into a good starter. I know lots of Cubs fans are down on Dempster but he's solid and the choice to move him to the rotation turned out to be a good one.

 

[FirstTimer]

That holds an injury risk, I suppose. The Rangers did that with Feliz and Ogando, as well as CJ Wilson (who netted them a comp pick methinks). I don't recall if Feliz and Ogando are still hurt though.

I guess the Red Sox tried to do that with Bard but he sucked for whatever reason.

I'm not completely sure where I read it but Mariano Rivera was a starter and then the Yankees just decided he would be a reliever, though he only got that first season to show what he had and it was pretty bad.

Ryan Dempster is definitely an example of converting a good reliever into a good starter. I know lots of Cubs fans are down on Dempster but he's solid and the choice to move him to the rotation turned out to be a good one.

Chris Sale.

Adam Wainwright got reconverted to a starter after killing people out of the bullpen in 2006.

Dempster.

Lowe.

Smoltz bounced around.

For even as dominate as Chapman has been the Reds long term still view him as a starter.

And on and on and on.

 

[FirstTimer]

The only guy that I can think that went the other way was Jonathan Papelbon. Really effing good starter in the minors. Came up to fill a hole in the bullpen and stuck. Never got moved back.

 

[Rice Cube]

Chris Sale was a weird one. For some reason the White Sox chose to develop him as a reliever despite him starting in college. Then they didn't stretch him out that much before throwing him back in the rotation. That was a bit weird to me but he seems to be holding up.

I didn't know that about Papelbon, but the Sawx got a draft pick back for him, right?

 

[FirstTimer]

Chris Sale was a weird one. For some reason the White Sox chose to develop him as a reliever despite him starting in college. Then they didn't stretch him out that much before throwing him back in the rotation. That was a bit weird to me but he seems to be holding up.

I didn't know that about Papelbon, but the Sawx got a draft pick back for him, right?

IIRC wasn't the reason Sale was moved to the bullpen upon his drafting is that so he would be fast tracked to the big leagues to help the White Sox depleted bullpen, more so than it being an organizational "plan" for him to be a reliever long term? I'm pretty sure he made his MLB debut like 2 months after being drafted.

 

[DewsSox79]

Chris Sale was a weird one. For some reason the White Sox chose to develop him as a reliever despite him starting in college. Then they didn't stretch him out that much before throwing him back in the rotation. That was a bit weird to me but he seems to be holding up.

I didn't know that about Papelbon, but the Sawx got a draft pick back for him, right?

He was a starter in college but he didnt have the physical and mental wear in college as he would in the MLB. In his situation I think "stretching" a guy out is a bit looked at too much under the microscope. This isnt a guy in the middle of the season pitching out of the pen and than trying to insert him in the rotation. the "stretching" was done in the offseason and ST.

IIRC wasn't the reason Sale was moved to the bullpen upon his drafting is that so he would be fast tracked to the big leagues to help the White Sox depleted bullpen, more so than it being an organizational "plan" for him to be a reliever long term? I'm pretty sure he made his MLB debut like 2 months after being drafted.

that is pretty much how it went down. they looked at him as a starter but knew he could be effective as a reliever for a "tire patch" scenario right away. I believe the plan all along was for him to be a replacement to Buehrle who I believe IMO was never going to comeback and the sox brass had no intentions on bringing him back, i think that was all part of the plan.

Also young relievers have value to a degree. Under team control, (cheap) and some are scouted and are considered to be future starters. Guys that wouldnt have tremendous value would be guys like matt thornton who is a power lefty but is expensive, and has proven he cant close and will never be a starter. a guy like him IMO is a shit spec and some salary relief. I guess it all depends on the specific player we would be talking about.

 

[Rice Cube]

That makes sense then. That kind of talent shouldn't be wasted in the bullpen until he proves he can't handle starting. I'm glad to see Sale is doing fine though.

 

[DewsSox79]

James Russell?

yeah i was skimming through and saw a lot of him being tossed around. umm IMO no value? not of anything significant atleast.

 

[Rice Cube]

yeah i was skimming through and saw a lot of him being tossed around. umm IMO no value? not of anything significant atleast.

He's basically a league-minimum lefty who is producing well to this point. So the value would be minimal. He might be more of a throw-in anyway. If he continues doing this for a few more seasons though he could get a Marshall-like extension (the Hendry one, not the one the Reds threw at him).

 

[cubsneedmiracle]

I've heard we've got some good ones in AA right now..

My buddy is one of the athletic trainers for the Smokies.

 

[Rice Cube]

I've heard we've got some good ones in AA right now..

My buddy is one of the athletic trainers for the Smokies.

Tell him to tell the pitchers to throw more goddamned strikes

 

[FirstTimer]

I've heard we've got some good ones in AA right now..

My buddy is one of the athletic trainers for the Smokies.

Meh.

McNutt isn't all that great. Nicholas Struck is interesting but doesn't project to anything better than a #3...and that's being really optimistic.

 

[Rice Cube]

2seam's previous comment about not having a lot of good consistent relievers in baseball belies the observation that reliever production fluctuates pretty significantly between seasons. You look at even "established" pitchers like Jose Valverde and Heath Bell and you see how bad their production can get from year to year (especially Bell). So the lack of consistent relievers is because most of them will exhibit that kind of volatility, and you're very unlikely to find a HOF-caliber reliever like Rivera or on-the-cusp guys like Lee Smith. One season's All-Star set-up man becomes next season's DFA.

 

[FirstTimer]

2seam's previous comment about not having a lot of good consistent relievers in baseball belies the observation that reliever production fluctuates pretty significantly between seasons. You look at even "established" pitchers like Jose Valverde and Heath Bell and you see how bad their production can get from year to year (especially Bell). So the lack of consistent relievers is because most of them will exhibit that kind of volatility, and you're very unlikely to find a HOF-caliber reliever like Rivera or on-the-cusp guys like Lee Smith. One season's All-Star set-up man becomes next season's DFA.