Roes and Miller Suck!

[TheStig]

Shakes wrote:

TheStig wrote:

Kirk could never create, get to the rim or be as good in the clutch as Rose.

Rose averaged about the same number of assists as Kirk, and Kirk played a decent amount of time as SG next to Duhon. If Rose is a greatly superior creator then it's not showing up in the form of made shots. Getting to the rim is well and good, but if you're not fouled then the two points if you make it are effectively identical to a made jump shot. Overall Kirk was more efficient because he made threes. As far as being clutch goes, I think you're remembering the abysmal 07/08 Kirk, he was decent in 06/07.

Again, I think it's everyone remembers the good players of Rose and thinks of the player he could become. The stats don't bear out that he's there yet. Put those stats in the body of a 4th year "unathletic" guard and suddenly nobody thinks he's a great player.

Note I'm not saying that Rose doesn't have a lot more potential than Kirk in his 4th year, I'm just saying that Kirk in his 4th year was clearly a better player when you consider defense, yet wasn't considered great or a superstar or any of the other superlatives people are already throwing at Rose.

Closing out the season, Rose was the 3rd best pg in the league. He was playing great. He just hasn't been controlling the game and setting the pace like he was closing out the game.

It's a small sample size. Players put a few good games together and people assume they're breaking out, they put a few bad games together and we've drafted a bust. I think looking at what he's done over the whole season gives a better picture of who Rose is at this point.

Its not really fair to compare a rookie to a guys career year. But even then the stats still bare out favorable to kirk. Kirk's defense gives him an edge I agree but your not comparing apples to apples. Kirk's assists came off of ball movement and not penetration, we lived and died by the jumper. With Rose, we can see the future that Rose will be able to get the bigs dunks and open jumpers to the wings.

I also agree that I chose a small sample size but I think it shows the future of what we should expect. We need him to be that kinda player to be a good team.

 

[dynastyVI]

Rose is not a good defender. We have seen it all year and it's catching up to us. He'll improve on it, because he's a good athlete and learner. As for Miller, he's playing hard, but just isn't enough against a big, physical frontline like the Leprechauns.

 

[Brad Miller Passmaster]

Sorry guys I try my best

 

[newbalancerun07]

Brad Miller Passmaster wrote:

Sorry guys I try my best

Much love Miller. As long as you try your best, that is good enough for me.

 

[Shakes]

TheStig wrote:

we can see the future that Rose will be able to get the bigs dunks and open jumpers to the wings.

See that's exactly what I'm talking about ... we can see the future sure, but it's not the future yet and people are expecting Rose to be able to do that already and getting disappointed when he can't.

I mean even Doug (who is normally one of the most level headed guys in not talking up or down the players too much) was calling Rose a superstar after one game. The expectations on Rose are way overinflated compared to the reality right now.

 

[Diddy1122]

Brad Miller Passmaster wrote:

Sorry guys I try my best

Hey you shoulda had two and on the side if the refs had even watched that play.

 

[TheStig]

Shakes wrote:

TheStig wrote:

we can see the future that Rose will be able to get the bigs dunks and open jumpers to the wings.

See that's exactly what I'm talking about ... we can see the future sure, but it's not the future yet and people are expecting Rose to be able to do that already and getting disappointed when he can't.

I mean even Doug (who is normally one of the most level headed guys in not talking up or down the players too much) was calling Rose a superstar after one game. The expectations on Rose are way overinflated compared to the reality right now.

I agree to an extent. Being timid or having a couple extra turnovers is understandable. But 20 turnovers in 3 games and making rondo into oscar robertson is in excusable. I could easily love with the turnovers if they were going to the basic and being aggressive but they are more careless and his defense is just horrible. Those two things we can't just give him a pass for.

 

[Hendu0520]

Rose's defense is by no means great, but it is not as bad as you think it is. I would put it at the level of an average rookie point guard. Derrick is no avg rookie pg so it does shine poorly on him. I think it is worst on the fastbreak, he is gonna have to learn how to stop all of these quick guards on the break, he never stops anyone unless he is chasing and can get a block. His halfcourt defense is not as bad, it is ok actually but the Bulls still don't have a great system for the pick'n roll the most used play in the league. The bigs are constantly messing up on help coverage and hedging. Tonight I thought they did a much better job, atleast Rondo didn't go crazy but it still wasn't perfect.

Rose has shown some promising plays, the steal on the 2nd or 3rd play of the game and the block on Paul Pierce I think in Game 1. He is in his 1st year, but his D was not the worst thing that happened on that end of the floor tonight.

What killed the Bulls was that Paul Pierce did the exact same move 4 times in a row. PP faked left and went 1 dribble rt and pulled up for the fadeaway. Salmons played good defense everytime, but it didn't matter. I would have just shaded him to the left, he never pulls up going left it is uncomfortable for him. Look at last years finals, most of those shots are him going rt, ssquaring up and going for the shot, that is his bread and butter. We could have trapped him but that would leave a shooter open, just shade him toward Hinrich and Rondo to the left, their worst shooter and a good help defender in Kirk. But we just played him striaght up, not blaming Salmons, blaming Vinny Dell Bickerstaff.

And yes Barkley and Kenny both think that the foul on Miller was a flagrant and me too. On the replay he basically swung and hit him in straight up in the face. Rondo did not even come close to the ball, c'mon, he even admitted he was just going to foul him hard. That sounds to me like he was not going for the ball which he was so far off of.

 

[Hendu0520]

Oh and even if Rose even worse he would still be by far the best rookie that will come out this year, Brook Lopez, seriously. If a terrible game for Rose is 14 pts 8 reb 6 asts 3 stl 1 blk and 6 to then I would take that guy and then you tell me he is a rookie? I'd say get him on the phone right now.

 

[pinkizdead]

Rose1 wrote:

Gordon did his part. Rose was neutral on every possession Rondo sagged off on. Your number pick must take over and not be self-conscious.

dude he's a rookie.
what do you expect?

i agree with you and doug thonus that rose isn't amazing,but he does have alot of potential. he doesn't set guys up at every instant, but eh... he's 20. waite two years, we'll see whats up.

 

[pinkizdead]

TheStig wrote:

Manic Devourer wrote:

TheStig wrote:

Rose is a great player but outside of game 1, he has sucked horrible. Rose has been turning the ball over, not getting to the line, not really pushing the ball and has been Rondo's toy on D. I mean really, Rondo is averaging a triple double and 20+ points, inexcusable. Rondo definetly won't be putting up those numbers in the next round and we have been allowing him to run the break like he was Lebron. Rose showed a lot during the year and has great promise but his defense is absolutly horrible, he couldn't keep an eighty yr old man in front of him. Miller just choked, it happens, its a missed free throw, you can't make every free throw. I really hope works on his D in the offseason because he was good at it in Memphis.

Yep, Rose apparently didn't play in game 4. And the 23 points, 11 rebounds and 9 assists never happened.

Most of that came in the 4th, I will give you 1 and a 1/4 game. Still disappointing but the worst part is what he has allowed Rondo to do. Rondo is not nearly as good as the numbers he is putting up. Rose is just getting killed on D.

how much of this is his help d's fault?

also how many other people out there in the eastern conference can gaurd an incredibly fast pg? andre miller? kirk hinrich? bibby? yeah...those guys are just amazingly quick.

i'd take rose's rookie season over rondo's any day of the week.

 

[pinkizdead]

TheStig wrote:

engies wrote:

Rose1 wrote:

engies wrote:

Rose1 wrote:

I just throw my Rose jersey away. I wish we had Eric Gordon or OJ Mayo. They would of relish to take a shot. He wasn't setting no one up. He just bet at the top of the key and waited for Gordon or Salmons to come off a screen. He wasn't aggressive. He bet not come around the south side of Chicago. They gonna clown him.

I cant believe you. Your name is Rose1 and your profile pic is Rondo. Why don't you jump on someone elses bandwagon

Rose is a 20 year old rookie, who won rookie of the year and won us PLENTY during the season to even get us in this position. If you dont have the patience to put up with rookie mistakes then you wouldnt have faired well when Jordan was a rookie, or any great player

HE DIDN'T PUT PRESSURE ON RONDO!

Where in my post did I say he did

You're being really irrational right now. I bet if Rose wins us the game next game you'll be so different from right now. But right now you're being insane as shown in your posts and your post in capitals just then

Just calm down

We are very patient but his defense is bottom 5 among starting pgs. Rondo shouldn't be putting up a triple double. If skiles were still here, Rose would be seeing the end of the bench. Not that I want him benched but if he is not driving to the rim or pushing the tempo, Rose is a liability in this series.

here's a thought experiment. imagine if we started kirk. i think the same thing hat happened in the morning game against the pacers would occur. Rondo would blow by kirk.

rondo isn't an easy player to gaurd. also rondo is starting to mature. This is his 3rd year? he's been a starting pg for a while now. at sometime you'd think that he'd get "it".

 

[Shakes]

There's no doubt that our defensive system is partly to blame. The fact that Vinny isn't as good a defensive coach as Skiles was is making Rose look worse than he could be.

Perhaps the best help defense we could play is give Rondo a smack in the head like he gave Miller. Our current methods of stopping him at the basket aren't working, throw Gray or someone non-essential in there and give it a go I say. :laugh:

 

[TheStig]

pinkizdead wrote:

TheStig wrote:

engies wrote:

Rose1 wrote:

engies wrote:

Rose1 wrote:

I just throw my Rose jersey away. I wish we had Eric Gordon or OJ Mayo. They would of relish to take a shot. He wasn't setting no one up. He just bet at the top of the key and waited for Gordon or Salmons to come off a screen. He wasn't aggressive. He bet not come around the south side of Chicago. They gonna clown him.

I cant believe you. Your name is Rose1 and your profile pic is Rondo. Why don't you jump on someone elses bandwagon

Rose is a 20 year old rookie, who won rookie of the year and won us PLENTY during the season to even get us in this position. If you dont have the patience to put up with rookie mistakes then you wouldnt have faired well when Jordan was a rookie, or any great player

HE DIDN'T PUT PRESSURE ON RONDO!

Where in my post did I say he did

You're being really irrational right now. I bet if Rose wins us the game next game you'll be so different from right now. But right now you're being insane as shown in your posts and your post in capitals just then

Just calm down

We are very patient but his defense is bottom 5 among starting pgs. Rondo shouldn't be putting up a triple double. If skiles were still here, Rose would be seeing the end of the bench. Not that I want him benched but if he is not driving to the rim or pushing the tempo, Rose is a liability in this series.

here's a thought experiment. imagine if we started kirk. i think the same thing hat happened in the morning game against the pacers would occur. Rondo would blow by kirk.

rondo isn't an easy player to gaurd. also rondo is starting to mature. This is his 3rd year? he's been a starting pg for a while now. at sometime you'd think that he'd get "it".

I don't understand your point? I didn't say start Kirk, I said Rose's defense sucks. Do you disagree? And the rest of the league seems to contain him to 12ppg, 8apg and 5rpg. We are the ones allowing him 24ppg, 11rpg and 10 apg all of which are greatly above his season and career averages. Rose's D is just terrible, he really needs to work on it in the offseason but it is killing us. We have been keeping PP and Ray Allen in check.

 

[Hendu0520]

I disagree I think that the style of play is what is mostly helping Rondo rack up the numbers. In order for the Bulls to win they have to run, that does not suit everyone on the Celtics except for Rondo. We can't slow down the game just to stop Rondo or we will get killed. Also when you back off of him because he can't shoot or your doubling Pierce or Allen it is harder to box him out with all that space in between him and his defender. Same goes for Rose, that's why he is free for a lot of offensive rebounds.

Lastly, if you've noticed he hasn't done much down the stretch that's Ray and Pierce's time. He has gotten some big hustle plays but in crunch time come 3 minutes you barely notice Rondo until he misses a jumper.

 

[Hendu0520]

I do agree that he has a long way to go defensively and needs to work hard in the offseason but he is not terrible.

 

[TheStig]

Hendu0520 wrote:

I do agree that he has a long way to go defensively and needs to work hard in the offseason but he is not terrible.

Name 3 starting pg's on playoff teams that are worse defensively. He really is that bad now, Rondo is putting up 24ppg.

 

[RPK]

TheStig wrote:

Hendu0520 wrote:

I do agree that he has a long way to go defensively and needs to work hard in the offseason but he is not terrible.

Name 3 starting pg's on playoff teams that are worse defensively. He really is that bad now, Rondo is putting up 24ppg.

Since everyone else is repeating themselves, I might as well to add if you're going to blame Rose' D on Rondo, you better also blame the Bulls help defense on the pick and roll since the Celtics run a pick and roll to switch to a slower defender on nearly every offensive set.


You might also want to add that no one can guard Pierce right now if he's play well. I don't know, but I do remember him hitting some huge shots in like 3 straight possessions. But you're right, it's all Rose' fault.

 

[cool007]

Okay, let's get this straight first.

Rondo is NO PUSHOVER. The pace that we are playing, the MINUTES that Rondo is playing, the Defense (or lack of defense) that we are playing, all the concentrations on pierce and Allen meaning we switch, we send double/bigs toward Pierce/Allen thus players out of position, are all the attributes to him being this good in this series.

Also, we just don't send help when Rondo is going to the bucket coz we are too worried about Allen and Pierce getting open - and when we DO send help, Big Baby and Perkins killed us.

You guys realize that Big Baby and Perkins are having the best series of their career (or played their best games against us this series)???

It's not just Rondo, it's our defense (or lack of defense/awareness).

Also, Rondo is just playing out of his mind as well. Ball seem to bounce his way and everything is falling into place for him - and when your guys Big Baby/Pierce/Allen/Perkins all make shots, it's even tougher to stop Rondo.

How many times we have seen Rose beat Rondo only to have Perkins getting his back and block the shot or Big baby coming over to take the charge???

Did we (our bigs) ever do that against Rondo???


Rondo believe it or not is a Pathetic one-on-one defender and Rose has blew by him like million times already but their big men are just smarter than our's.

 

[TheStig]

RPK wrote:

TheStig wrote:

Hendu0520 wrote:

I do agree that he has a long way to go defensively and needs to work hard in the offseason but he is not terrible.

Name 3 starting pg's on playoff teams that are worse defensively. He really is that bad now, Rondo is putting up 24ppg.

Since everyone else is repeating themselves, I might as well to add if you're going to blame Rose' D on Rondo, you better also blame the Bulls help defense on the pick and roll since the Celtics run a pick and roll to switch to a slower defender on nearly every offensive set.


You might also want to add that no one can guard Pierce right now if he's play well. I don't know, but I do remember him hitting some huge shots in like 3 straight possessions. But you're right, it's all Rose' fault.

I am not trying to blame rose for us losing the series or game. VDN makes the worst adjustments in the league and Rose is a rookie and will get better, I am just stating that his defense is horrible and Rondo is no where as good as his numbers. Blame the help defense all you want but everyone else on the celtics isn't putting up oscar robertson numbers.

Also PP, is not killing us. He had a good final stretch but PP is doing what PP always does. He is averaging a point more than his career averages and everything else is in line. Considering he is moved to a #1 option again we are doing a pretty good job guarding him. An injured John Salmons is doing a good job against him and had a hand in his face on everyone of those closing jumpers, PP is a star player and thats what he is supposed to do.