Ross vs Counsell

[CSF77]

I realize Morel has to play because they did nothing to address 3b again. Hoyer is who I blame for most of the cubs issues.

I actually like counsell and liked Ross. I just hate when guys like canario, pca, Vazquez come up and either barely see the field at all or aren't playing everyday (pca) as they should be. It's mismanagement of the resources. If they aren't going to be utilized, they should be in the minors playing everyday and getting developmental reps

Vasquez holds value because the bat is not his main strength. His glove is. My issue is having Madrigal still on the team. Vazquez should be getting most of the reps at 3B. Who gives a damn if some one picks his dumb ass on wavers. Good riddance.

Canario I see as a trade chip. They have Davis also so they can afford to flip one.

PCA should come up. Just getting Suzuki out of the line up to tune his swing justifies the move. Long term he would have to out play Tauchman.

 

[CSF77]

As far as Jed is concerned. I'm not going to get into he should be fired. That is unlikely. What he needs to do is address catcher. Gomes is a FA next year and the production for the catcher sucks. Minor leagues best prospect is in AA and lacks catching skills. Bat is plus and most likely will change positions. Converting to 3B would be ideal if they got to it this year so he can adjust. That would solve 3B as his bat is one of the best in the system.



Austin Barnes (35) – $3.5MM club option
Tucker Barnhart (34)
Elias Diaz (34)
Yan Gomes (37)
Yasmani Grandal (36)
Austin Hedges (32)
Kyle Higashioka (35)
Danny Jansen (30)
Carson Kelly (30)
Luke Maile (34)
Martin Maldonado (38)
James McCann (35)
Omar Narvaez (33)
Tomas Nido (31)
Gary Sanchez (32)
Jacob Stallings (35)
Max Stassi (34) – $7.5MM club option with a $500K buyout

That is the catcher class. I'm seeing Danny Jackson. Rest are back up types.

So we are talking a over pay going in. They will have Hendricks and I doubt that Neris will get his opt picked. So the commitment will be 150M going in. 241M is the cap.

I would lock up some Arb cases. Steele is the only one who should get a offer and he should get a strong contract. He made 4M in Arb1 and I would think that he gets 12M next year via Arb. I would buy out the 3 years of control and add 5 more years. (8/150M) 18.75 AAV which is a great way to keep tax in check while paying for a ace.

 

[knoxville7]

well, the final results are in...

2024 with Counsell = 83-79
2023 with Ross = 83-79

LMAO

 

[EberflusBeardBears]

well, the final results are in...

2024 with Counsell = 83-79
2023 with Ross = 83-79

LMAO

Alzolay - 3 blown saves in 58 games in 2023/ 5 blown saves in 18 games in 2024

Let me know what Counsell did to make Alzolay horrible and Merriweather injured and I'd be happy to take this criticism seriously.

 

[knoxville7]

Alzolay - 3 blown saves in 58 games in 2023/ 5 blown saves in 18 games in 2024

Let me know what Counsell did to make Alzolay horrible and Merriweather injured and I'd be happy to take this criticism seriously.

yes, i know the 2023 cubs under David Ross suffered no injuries and had zero performance regressions from any players

 

[EberflusBeardBears]

yes, i know the 2023 cubs under David Ross suffered no injuries and had zero performance regressions from any players

I mean Alzolay and Merriweather were their best 2 relievers coming into the season and Neris was probably the 3rd most important arm and he was deplorable. You can blame that on Counsell if you want, I'd just like some reasoning behind it.

When you build an 86 win roster and your best 3 relievers end up contributing nothing to the team, I think winning 83 games is probably more than you'd expect in that hypothetical.

 

[knoxville7]

I mean Alzolay and Merriweather were their best 2 relievers coming into the season and Neris was probably the 3rd most important arm and he was deplorable. You can blame that on Counsell if you want, I'd just like some reasoning behind it.

link to me ever blaming injuries and/or player regression on Counsell???

 

[EberflusBeardBears]

link to me ever blaming injuries and/or player regression on Counsell???

One thing I'll say is that if Bellinger has last year's year, this Cubs team might just make the playoffs. He was pretty mediocre, but I kind of expected that.

All I'm saying is that Jed Hoyer built an 86 win roster if everything goes right and the top 3 bullpen arms contributed nothing. Getting to 83 wins seems unlikely in that hypothetical honestly.

 

[knoxville7]

One thing I'll say is that if Bellinger has last year's year, this Cubs team might just make the playoffs. He was pretty mediocre, but I kind of expected that.

All I'm saying is that Jed Hoyer built an 86 win roster if everything goes right and the top 3 bullpen arms contributed nothing. Getting to 83 wins seems unlikely in that hypothetical honestly.

gee, you mean the same cody bellinger that missed like a month of the season last year? man, how did ross and the cubbies overcome that?!

i agree the bullpen was trash, but it was largely the same bullpen ross had to work with the year prior. actually, adding Neris made it on paper better than the year prior.

 

[EberflusBeardBears]

I'm also just not sure why you care what Counsell makes or that David Ross got fired. If Counsell's salary actually hurt the payroll in terms of luxury tax, I'd probably agree with you and think Counsell was a bad signing. Ross getting fired gave him more time to abandon his wife and children for a chicago tv actress. Win/win for all involved!

 

[Szlachcic]

well, the final results are in...

2024 with Counsell = 83-79
2023 with Ross = 83-79

LMAO

Way to go Hoyer. Your spend money in the wrong places.. AGAIN!

 

[knoxville7]

I'm also just not sure why you care what Counsell makes or that David Ross got fired. If Counsell's salary actually hurt the payroll in terms of luxury tax, I'd probably agree with you and think Counsell was a bad signing. Ross getting fired gave him more time to abandon his wife and children for a chicago tv actress. Win/win for all involved!

yeah, why care if the franchise made a good or poor decision regarding who leads the team!

 

[EberflusBeardBears]

yeah, why care if the franchise made a good or poor decision regarding who leads the team!

The idea Ross to Counsell was a downgrade is kinda hard to fathom after the historic choke job Ross pulled off last year. Could have sworn that Ross had the Cubs 95% to make the playoffs late in the year last year and then blew it with lots of bad lineups and questionable bullpen management.

 

[knoxville7]

The idea Ross to Counsell was a downgrade is kinda hard to fathom after the historic choke job Ross pulled off last year. Could have sworn that Ross had the Cubs 95% to make the playoffs late in the year last year and then blew it with lots of bad lineups and questionable bullpen management.

never said it was even a downgrade. just said it was a waste to fire ross and go after counsell to pay him 3.5mil/year more than what the next closest MLB manager makes

and counsell led the team to the same record.

you just got done absolving Counsell for poor lineups and bad bullpen, to only then criticize Ross for the same things??? you excused counsells bullpen because the players sucked. well, guess what buttercup...ross dealt with the same roster

 

[EberflusBeardBears]

never said it was even a downgrade. just said it was a waste to fire ross and go after counsell to pay him 3.5mil/year more than what the next closest MLB manager makes

and counsell led the team to the same record.

you just got done absolving Counsell for poor lineups and bad bullpen, to only then criticize Ross for the same things??? you excused counsells bullpen because the players sucked. well, guess what buttercup...ross dealt with the same roster

You're also forgetting that 84 wins made the playoffs in the NL last year and this year it took 89. You don't think the Cubs get to 84 wins hypothetically this year if they knew that would get it done?

The irony is I agree with your general premise that the manager isn't that important, but I did see enough bad decisions out of Ross to conclude that the average placeholder manager would be better than him.

Whether Counsell makes a lot of money is irrelevant to me because it doesn't impact the luxury tax, which is what Ricketts is really worried about at those penalties escalate quickly.

 

[knoxville7]

You're also forgetting that 84 wins made the playoffs in the NL last year and this year it took 89. You don't think the Cubs get to 84 wins hypothetically this year if they knew that would get it done?

The irony is I agree with your general premise that the manager isn't that important, but I did see enough bad decisions out of Ross to conclude that the average placeholder manager would be better than him.

Whether Counsell makes a lot of money is irrelevant to me because it doesn't impact the luxury tax, which is what Ricketts is really worried about at those penalties escalate quickly.

lmao so your take is that the cubs were trying to lose at the end of the year this year??

your take is that ross kept the cubs in the playoff race longer than counsell? that aint the sick burn you think it is

 

[EberflusBeardBears]

My take is that Ross lost a playoff spot to a pretty horrible Marlins team. That team might be the worst team to ever make the playoffs in MLB history. I'd say it's pretty likely Counsell doesn't allow that to happen. And you can keep going on and on about it being the same roster. There was less production on this roster. I suppose it's Counsell's fault that Hendricks was league average last year and this year was one of the worst pitchers in the NL? Or that his best pitcher missed 33% of the year? Or again, that Alzolay went from a league average closer to one of the worst relievers in the league?

It's silly. The proof is in the pudding, no one called Ross up and offered him a job for a reason.

 

[EberflusBeardBears]

I also suppose that it was Counsell's fault that Gomes went from an incredibly clutch and productive piece last year to the worst hitter in the league this year? The truth is, if Gomes played last year like he did this year, that team probably wins 78 games. He won so many games with clutch hits late that's it's hard to put a value on it.

 

[knoxville7]

My take is that Ross lost a playoff spot to a pretty horrible Marlins team. That team might be the worst team to ever make the playoffs in MLB history. I'd say it's pretty likely Counsell doesn't allow that to happen. And you can keep going on and on about it being the same roster. There was less production on this roster. I suppose it's Counsell's fault that Hendricks was league average last year and this year was one of the worst pitchers in the NL? Or that his best pitcher missed 33% of the year? Or again, that Alzolay went from a league average closer to one of the worst relievers in the league?

It's silly. The proof is in the pudding, no one called Ross up and offered him a job for a reason.

lmao yet counsell got shut out of the playoffs this year as well. meanwhile, the team he left actually had a better record this year without counsell

and again, make all the excuses about injuries and performance you like. ross dealt with those as well. also, isnt it the managers job to put the players in the best position for success? so, if you opining that counsell got less performance out of the same roster....welll....who does that fall on? Probably blame Ross for that too, dont you?! lol

 

[knoxville7]

I also suppose that it was Counsell's fault that Gomes went from an incredibly clutch and productive piece last year to the worst hitter in the league this year? The truth is, if Gomes played last year like he did this year, that team probably wins 78 games. He won so many games with clutch hits late that's it's hard to put a value on it.

yeah, the backup catcher is at fault for Counsell's woes