Shaq retires. Where does he rank all-time?

[FirstTimer]

I don't think Shaq dominates Wilt..he didn't dominate Hakeem, who was smaller than Wilt. Wilt was as athletic as any big man in history...I don't believe any big man dominates him like that...

Wilt also never had to deal with a center has physcially imposing as Shaq...no one even close really. Frankly, Wilt wasn't as skilled as Hakeem IMO anyways. Wilt was athletic but compared to what Hakeem had fundamentally etc in relation to the actual game of basketball Hakeem was far far ahead...but again that has more to do with Hakeem playing 20 years after Wilt than it does Hakeem being just flat out better. Comparing players across eras is really tough to do and very futile..especially over as far a gap as players like Shaq/Hakeem and Wilt/Russell Butkus/Lewis etc.

I think we would all agree that Bob Cousy historically is a much better point guard than Mike Bibby in terms of being a "better" player...but if they matched up today no way in living hell I'm taking Cousy in the matchup. When you start comparing across eras as far sperated as some of the guys you are talking here I think first and foremost you have to look at what they did relative to peers.

 

[houheffna]

Wilt also never had to deal with a center has physcially imposing as Shaq...no one even close really. Frankly, Wilt wasn't as skilled as Hakeem IMO anyways. Wilt was athletic but compared to what Hakeem had fundamentally etc in relation to the actual game of basketball Hakeem was far far ahead...but again that has more to do with Hakeem playing 20 years after Wilt than it does Hakeem being just flat out better. Comparing players across eras is really tough to do and very futile..especially over as far a gap as players like Shaq/Hakeem and Wilt/Russell Butkus/Lewis etc.

I think we would all agree that Bob Cousy historically is a much better point guard than Mike Bibby in terms of being a "better" player...but if they matched up today no way in living hell I'm taking Cousy in the matchup. When you start comparing across eras as far sperated as some of the guys you are talking here I think first and foremost you have to look at what they did relative to peers.

You also have to look at the peers...not only didn't they have Shaq, they didn't have a Carmelo back then...there was no Duncan, Garnett or any of those players, that era did not have the players that this era has. Notice I look at Wilt's abilities, not his stats or MVPs. Why? Because he wouldn't score 100 points today...Jordan would have scored 150 then given his athleticism and the total package he possessed.

But I do get your point. Its what Jordan says all the time. You really can't compare over different eras, I just can't see myself picking Russell over Shaq at this point in the game...

 

[FirstTimer]

You also have to look at the peers

Ok..? Then if in your opinion and evaluation Shaq dominated against much tougher competeition than both Wilt and Russell how is Shaq ahead of Russell but not ahead of Wilt? Like Rory mentioned Russell more than held his own against Wilt so it's not as though Wilt was on some other level compared to Russell.

 

[houheffna]

So Shaq doesn't dominate Wilt, Wilt is the most athletic big man in history...yet Bill Russell more than held his own against Wilt but Russell's "skill package" is laughable when compared to modern-day players.

Beg pardon?

If held his own means get his ass kicked...Russell grabbed close to 60 rebounds against the Celtics, he was by far the best player of his era. Russell had much better teams, but Wilt was by far the better player. Wilt's abilities as an athlete are what I was looking at...certain athletes transcend their eras. I believe Wilt is that one player who would have dominated in any era...

 

[houheffna]

That wasn't my point. Someone said that no one dominated the way Shaq did, yet Shaq won only 1 MVP award in 18 seasons while Moses Malone won 3 MVP's in a 5-year span and Bill Russell won 5 MVP's in an 8-year span. Maybe my definition of "domination" is different than most people's?

You are allowed your own definition of domination...there is no one concrete way of looking at it. That is the crux of the debate...

 

[houheffna]

This might not have anything to do with anything, but Russell was more than Wilt's equal in college, too.

I apologize, WILT grabbed 60 boards on Russell, not the other way around, Russell never got off against Wilt like that...not even close...

 

[FirstTimer]

If held his own means get his ass kicked...Russell grabbed close to 60 rebounds against the Celtics

I assume you mean Wilt and not Russell.

Did Wilt's 55 rebound game come against Boston? I can't find anything saying it did.

 

[houheffna]

I assume you mean Wilt and not Russell.

Did Wilt's 55 rebound game come against Boston? I can't find anything saying it did.

Yes it did...

Wilt is also the only guy to ever block the sky hook by Kareem...

 

[FirstTimer]

Yes it did...

linkage?

Wilt is also the only guy to ever block the sky hook by Kareem...

Meh. Don't really care.

Wilt was a better scorer than Russell but honestly I don't view Wilt on some other level than Russell as a basketball player, and neither do many other people.

Wilt being better or worse than Russell wasn't really my point anyways. Wilt wasn't in a different league than Russell as a player was my main point in relation to the entire Shaq thing.

 

[BigP50]

I think Shaq is the best big man of all-time, at least from what Ive seen. If I was in the NBA I would prolly be legit scared just to be on the same court with him.

 

[houheffna]

linkage?



Meh. Don't really care.

Wilt was a better scorer than Russell but honestly I don't view Wilt on some other level than Russell as a basketball player, and neither do many other people.

Wilt being better or worse than Russell wasn't really my point anyways. Wilt wasn't in a different league than Russell as a player was my main point in relation to the entire Shaq thing.

My point is Wilt was a much more dominant player than Russell...and because of his size and athleticism, his game would transcend eras...Russell's would not...

WARRIORS: Wilt Chamberlain’s Records

 

[FirstTimer]

My point is Wilt was a much more dominant player than Russell...and because of his size and athleticism, his game would transcend eras...Russell's would not...

IMO you are vastly underrating Russell's athleticism. Russell basically got by as a player on his athletic skill. He wasn't a great shooter or scorer, but the things he was good at IMO took the most athleticism, defense, shot blocking, and rebounding. Russell's game and the way he played and the athlete he was on the defensive end of the floor would translate very well into any era if Wilt's game would. Honestly' Wilt's "game" wouldn't translate to today's era very well IMO. Post play then and now is night and day.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

You have 5 centers in your all time Top 10 players?

Wut?

My top 9 players in no particular order are

1. Jordan
2. Johnson
3. Chamberlain
4. Abdul-Jabbar
5. Olajuwon
6. Bird
7. O'Neal
8. Russell
9. Bryant

There is a pretty big dog fight for #10. That is very debatable to me.

 

[Diddy1122]

If Wilt played today he'd be better than Dwight Howard, or the best center in the NBA. If Russell played today, he'd be Ben Wallace with a slightly better offensive game. I'm not trying to sell anyone short, thats just my opinion. Russell would still be a dominant defender but would be total trash on offense. Wilt's overall game translates better to this era because he was 1) a physical freak at 7-2 & a ripped 290, 2) just as athletic as Howard, & 3) had possibly the best hands ever in the NBA. Great defense will always transfer over to different eras which is why Russell would be a dominant defender. But at his height, with his offensive skill set & average athleticism, he would not be much of a dominant scorer.

Anyway, who would be your modern day comparisons?

 

[houheffna]

IMO you are vastly underrating Russell's athleticism. Russell basically got by as a player on his athletic skill. He wasn't a great shooter or scorer, but the things he was good at IMO took the most athleticism, defense, shot blocking, and rebounding. Russell's game and the way he played and the athlete he was on the defensive end of the floor would translate very well into any era if Wilt's game would. Honestly' Wilt's "game" wouldn't transcend to today's era very well IMO. Post play then and now is night and day.

The difference between post play then and now...is that Wilt had it...in spades...these guys don't. Wilt may not have only been the best scoring, but the best passing big man of all time. And he did most of his damage, both scoring and passing, out of the post...he had a great post game, built around sound, fundamental basketball...Sabonis was doing a lot of Wilt's stuff 30 years later.

There's no way, if you stand Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem against a wall, knowing what all they can do...am I going to say "give me Russell"...that just ain't happening. Especially if its Lew Alcindor...hell no. That's my opinion.

And no way does a 6'9" 220 lb dude dominate like that defensively today, but Wilt? 7'1" 280 lbs? That translates then, now, and for years in the future...of those players, Russell's game has the smallest chance of translating...the question is...does Russell's efficiency translate...his offensive numbers were porous to say the least

 

[houheffna]

If Wilt played today he'd be better than Dwight Howard, or the best center in the NBA. If Russell played today, he'd be Ben Wallace with a slightly better offensive game. I'm not trying to sell anyone short, thats just my opinion. Russell would still be a dominant defender but would be total trash on offense. Wilt's overall game translates better to this era because he was 1) a physical freak at 7-2 & a ripped 290, 2) just as athletic as Howard, & 3) had possibly the best hands ever in the NBA. Great defense will always transfer over to different eras which is why Russell would be a dominant defender. But at his height, with his offensive skill set & average athleticism, he would not be much of a dominant scorer.

Anyway, who would be your modern day comparisons?

That is actually pretty good...Wilt would have been a beast in today's game...a true franchise player...a top 3 player today, easily. People forget rules were changed because of Wilt...on both sides of the court.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I honestly don't think that Bill Russell was any less of a rebounder than Wilt Chamberlain. He was certainly the better defensive player of the two.

Bill Russell was far from a prolific scorer, but he was no slouch in that department either.

Wilt is definitely better between the two though. Wilt had the endurance to go the entire 48 minutes of each game. There will never be another center who can do that.

 

[FirstTimer]

My top 9 players in no particular order are

1. Jordan
2. Johnson
3. Chamberlain
4. Abdul-Jabbar
5. Olajuwon
6. Bird
7. O'Neal
8. Russell
9. Bryant

There is a pretty big dog fight for #10. That is very debatable to me.

Oscar Robertson not being in your Top 5 invalidates your list.

 

[FirstTimer]

And no way does a 6'9" 220 lb

Ben Wallace was 6'9 240 and won 4 DPOY. Rodman was 6'6 220.

I'm not really worried about height and weight when it comes to defense.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Oscar Robertson not being in your Top 5 invalidates your list.

I haven't seen enough of Robertson to really judge whether he was better than a guy like Wade, Stockton, Payton, Thomas, or Drexler. My guess would be that he is, but I'm sure those other 9 guys are top 10.